posted on December 14, 2008 10:05:29 PM newThe only significant difference between any of these companies is the labor cost. They all use the same technologies and the same suppliers.
That is about as far from the truth as it get's. As far as suppliers goes, very few of the supplies that GM, Ford and Chrysler use are also used by the Japanese manufactures here in the states. Having worked for both GM and Chrysler in the past and having worked for Nissan for the past 18 years, I can state without hesitation that it's night and day on how the respective cars are designed, engineered and assembled.
I read here on how management was to blame, which is and isn't true. It is true that they need to share the blame, but not to take 100% of the blame. The blame needs to be shared in every aspect of each of the companies. From the CEO's right down to the assembly workers. I am not going to speak on management as it has been written to death here and for the most part true. But what hasn't been brought up is the total lack of pride and craftsmanship at the assembly plants. Those workers are just as much to blame as management. The prime example I will use (but far from the only example I could use) is when I was with GMC, we would receive brand new GMC trucks off of the transport that were delivered from the factory with Chevy emblems and nameplates on them. However, instead of the workers at the plants speaking up and fixing the problem before the vehicles got to the dealers, they simply turned their collective heads and went ahead and installed the incorrect items and these trucks and forced dealers to repair these problems (at extra cost to GM by the way) instead of correcting the problem before it was a problem which would have saved hundreds of dollars on each vehicle the shipped with bad parts, let alone having customers see these bad mistakes and poor quality construction.
What in turn has happened. The American public is speaking loud and clear with their wallets on where and from who they are purchasing their next vehicles. Most are finding that even though the styling might not be quite as nice as the American Cars, it's not enough of a difference to give up a on the amount of quality the are receiving on the Japanese owned companies which build most of the cars here in the States now.
Bottom line is it really don't matter how much anyone is getting paid (to an extent) as long as the Big 3 are producing crap, no bail out in any amount is going to fix this problem. Price isn't the issue. It's quality and all three lack that. All three need to get a new attitude from head to tow, from the top to the bottom and get rid of the "my sh-t don't stink" attitude. They no longer are the only game in town and collectively they better figure that out sooner than later or all three will be done.
[ edited by stonecold613 on Dec 14, 2008 10:07 PM ]
posted on December 15, 2008 06:49:25 AM new
All in, labor costs only account for 10% of the cost of a car.
Stone, as you say, the problem is quality (or perceived quality).
I have a Chrysler minivan, and I expect it to be the last American car I purchase. It has had various problems over time, and I'm tired of it. It rattles like a jalopy, and it has fewer than 30k miles on it.
Additionally, I could not get warranty coverage for my clogged transmission cooler. Apparently, a transmission cooler is not part of the drivetrain, according to Chrysler. Hmmmm. At least if they were bankrupt and the government backstopped the warranties, I probably would have had coverage.
We're really fond of our Audi, and if I were a betting man, I would wager that our next vehicle would be another Audi.
posted on December 15, 2008 09:16:41 AM new
Why do you people quote UAW "facts and figures" instead of what the rest of the planet says?
1) "Labor" is 10% of vehicle cost, the other 90% is research, development, parts, marketing, management, etc. Guess what?? ALL OF THOSE have "labor costs" also.
2) In nobody's imagination is a transmission cooler "part of a drivetrain". Neither are alternators or water pumps. I believe the warranty defines "drivetrain" as anything internally lubricated. Ever read it?
Perception frequently is contrary to fact. For example the overall quality rating for Chrysler is equal to Audi and MANY American nameplates are BETTER than Audi (Lincoln, Cadillac, Mercury, Jag, Buick)
posted on December 15, 2008 09:27:44 AM new
Squirrel,
I'm not a mechanic. If you tell me that my transmission is covered, I assume that includes a transmission cooler. Obviously I'm mistaken, but the guys at the service counter thought it was a bum deal also.
"Labor" is 10% of vehicle cost, the other 90% is research, development, parts, marketing, management, etc. Guess what?? ALL OF THOSE have "labor costs" also." You know what I meant; don't be goofy.
"Perception frequently is contrary to fact. For example the overall quality rating for Chrysler is equal to Audi and MANY American nameplates are BETTER than Audi (Lincoln, Cadillac, Mercury, Jag, Buick)" You might be right about the ratings, but in my small sample size of 3 (2 Chryslers, 1 Audi), the Audi wins without getting a sweat going. My guess about the ratings is that Chryslers are more often owned by people who have always bought Chryslers, and so they over-rate because there has been a real improvement over the years. That's just my theory as to why, because in my admittedly limited sample, the Audi is of much higher quality and capability. I'll also acknowledge that they're entirely different types of cars, but I can't think of an excuse for a vehicle with as many rattles at 30k miles.
posted on December 15, 2008 09:49:41 AM new
That's why people always make statements based on anecdotal information. I do not. If I had an Acura and the engine fell out onto the street, it would not change the fact that the vehicle is among the most trouble free on the planet.
On the Dodge forum the question frequently comes up about "should I buy an extended warranty". A simple question of math. An the math always says "no".
Somebody ALWAYS replies "My Uncle Louie got and extended warranty for $2k and his transmission fell out! It would have cost $4k and he got free coffee too!".
Funny thing is if you ask "Should I become a professional gambler??", people never tell you to go for it and how their Uncle Louie won $2k at Blackjack.
posted on December 15, 2008 10:57:33 AM new
Squirrel,
I think I admitted a number of times that my sample was small (i.e., anecdotal). However, as you must know, people base their decisions very often on what has happened to them, as much or more than on what JD Power has to say.
FWIW, I bought my second Chrysler because my children were in an accident in the previous one; the minivan was totaled from being T-boned by a tow truck (right where my daughter was sitting). She came out of it with a superficial rub-burn from the shoulder harness on the car seat. I bought a new Chrysler a couple of days later. So, anecdotal goes both ways
posted on December 15, 2008 11:47:17 AM new
The Chrysler minivans, as do most American nameplates, have high safety ratings.
When I buy a car, (or almost anything else) I do extensive research, determine exactly what I want, and then search for the lowest price. I never buy "the pretty red one in the corner".
posted on December 15, 2008 02:05:18 PM new
About car-buying: Since 1964, we've relied on Consumer Reports for advice and never been wrong! From VW stationwagons to Mazda to Mercedes to Lexus, with Toyota in between for many years; never been disappointed.
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posted on December 15, 2008 06:15:49 PM new
Roadsmith,
I take Consumer Reports into account also, but I have to admit that, as a subscriber, I'm sometimes put off when I read their comments about a particular subject area that I know well (e.g., cameras, televisions, audio equipment (not autos)).
It's not that they're WAY off, but somehow they seem to have criteria that I don't get.
posted on December 15, 2008 07:43:10 PM new
I read the magazine every month, and I think some of it stays in the back of my mind when I make purchasing decisions. I only use them for areas where I don't have reasonable expertise myself. For example, IIRC, they didn't mention the Nikon D700 in their most recent roundup of digital cameras (which might be a function of lead time before articles are published). To me, the D700 hits a sweet spot in price/performance/weight (admittedly it's expensive, but man oh man does it perform!).
Truth be told, most automobile decisions are really made by my wife, who is more into cars than I am (we're a bit gender-reversed). I buy minivans, she prefers sportier cars (her Audi is a TT, and I have to admit that I enjoy driving it on weekends when I sneak it away from her). She doesn't have time to read Consumer Reports, but if she picked a car that CR panned, I would try to steer her away from it.
posted on December 15, 2008 10:21:29 PM new
Consumer reports treats everything like a soulless appliance. They remind me of the older woman at work who was looking for a car and said her and her husband dismissed the BMW because it was "noisy", where the BMW buyer considers that "music". I only use them for statistical info on owner satisfaction, dealer ratings and reliability. Everything else is from industry press and testing.
posted on December 19, 2008 05:07:13 AM new
I am still in Hong Kong since Nov 7th,I have yet to see an American car.
I see plenty of Mercedes,even the cabs are Mercedes,many Toyota and Honda and some BMW and Porsche.
*
Economic Reform act of Chairman Obama of the socialist States of America :
10 ounces of meat per month,half a yard of cotton per year per adult.
Hellilujah!
