posted on August 7, 2001 08:49:57 PM new
Here are a couple of posts from alt.marketing.online.ebay regarding PayPal's take (their customer service department, anyway) on Delivery Confirmation with regards to their "Seller Protection Policy".
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Post #1
Dear Mr. XXX,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I would suggest to use postal insurance on all your shipping using the Postal Service.
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely, Richard PayPal Customer Service
===========================================
Maybe third times the charm, you still haven't answered my question.
Your seller protection plan requires I use a method of verifying
delivery to the confirmed address that can be checked online to
qualify. Delivery confirmation only verifies delivery to a zip code,
and postal insurance can't be checked online, so it doesn't qualify for
the buyer protection plan. Is there anyone there who can actually
answer my question? What service, offered by the post office, fits the
requirements of the seller protection plan?
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Dear Mr. XXX,
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
After viewing the USPS site, it is clear that Signature Proof of Delivery
would be the service to use. You can track it online and it does confirm
the delivery address. For more information go to:
http://www.usps.com/shipping/signatre.htm
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Richard
PayPal Customer Service
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Post #2
"Here's another data point for everyone. Yesterday PayPal called me just as a courtesy to see if I had any issues. I responded that I didn't, but did mention the threads on boards about PayPal/chargeback/fraud protection. The woman with whom I spoke stated that delivery confirmation was NOT acceptable to invoke the PayPal protections. So who is Damon? He's been around for quite a while, on numerous boards, and seems to be quite well connected in the company. So we seem to need a decision here by PayPal, because I suspect he believes he has the authority to commit to what he said."
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The customer service people quoted above say DC is not acceptable, while paypaldamon says it is. It sounds a bit like one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.
Please address again whether an item using Delivery Confirmation (DC) but sent using Endicia.com or other bulk mailing programs would still qualify for the seller protection program.
In another thread, the critical issue seemed to be that a DC "Proof of Delivery" wasn't enough to fulfill this requirement of the seller protection program. As I understood your postings, Paypal requires "Proof of Shipment", which can only be gotten by personally standing in line and having the PO clerk scan in each and every DC at the start of the package's voyage.
It seems to defy all logic to hold that a DC "Proof of Delivery" posting at the USPS website isn't, by itself, acceptable despite the fact that you can't get a "Proof of Delivery" scan without having mailed the package in the first place (Proof of Shipment).
More smileyface eradications!
[ edited by vobistdu on Aug 8, 2001 01:02 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 01:25:11 PM new
Damon, your answer seemed to be "No" in the other thread, because these programs don't get packages scanned in at the beginning of their journey (Proof of Shipment).
If the USPS website only shows that the package with Delivery Confiramtion was delivered (Proof of Delivery), is that now good enough to fulfill the seller protection requirement? Or would one still have to have BOTH the shipment scan (Proof of Shipment) AND the Proof of Delivery scan?
The whole point of these bulk package mailing services is that the sender DOESN'T have to stand in line at the PO to get each package scanned in. So, will "Proof of Delivery" as posted at the USPS website be enough to fulfill your "tracking" requirements?
posted on August 8, 2001 01:37:33 PM newI have also contacted that user in the newsgroup to advise them of the same.
Apparently, you haven't convinced him...
----------------------------------------
Here's Damon's latest post on the user board. He just won't come out and
answer the question directly. I am just about convinced that this is an
intentional way of Paypal trying to compete with Billpoint, but finding a
way out of paying claims under the "seller protection program". Notice how
Damon cleverly says that delivery confirmation is OK, as long as you can
meet a requirement that it doesn't provide.
Here's what Damon just said:
"Hi,
I have checked the information, again, with our chargeback team. Delivery
Confirmation is acceptable as long as it can be tracked online. The other
criteria for the Seller Protection Program must be followed as well (ship to
the confirmed address,etc).
We are looking for adequate proof-of-delivery, which would be supported by the delivery confirmation (as long as it can be tracked online).
We are looking to make sure:
a) the package was shipped
b) the confirmed address was the one it was sent to
Use this as a guide for protections and shipping methods...
Ship to the confirmed address.
Get proof that it was shipped and that it can be tracked online.
Mrpotatohead,
This information does not deviate from anything that has been posted over the past year on the subject. I have no control over the scans the post office makes.
1--The package is scanned in, either at the PO, or perhaps somewhere along its journey by these bulk mailing programs, or perhaps not at all (clerical error/scan fails to capture).
2--The package is again scanned when delivered (Proof of Delivery).
Obviously(?), the package can't be delivered if it wasn't shipped, so:
WILL A USPS "PROOF OF DELIVERY" SCAN BY ITSELF BE ACCEPTABLE TO PAYPAL?
Please make this an unequivocal, "yes or no" answer, without any qualifications or simple repetition of the 'trackable online' statement.
Edited for clarity (I hope).
[ edited by vobistdu on Aug 8, 2001 02:06 PM ]
Simple question, and this is me relying on your experience...
Is the delivery portion of it trackable online?
I am not trying to confuse the issue, but I am trying to advise that...
Delivery confirmation, as long as it can be tracked online, and the address it was shipped to was the confirmed address on file, the seller meets part of the protection criteria.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:12:47 PM new
How about if I ask a couple of questions, which can be answered "Yes" or "No"?
From PayPal's TOU (regarding the seller protection plan):
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address. (Most U.S. carrier companies offer this service, including the U.S. Postal Service.) Because comparable proof-of-shipment is not currently available for electronically-delivered items, we are currently unable to offer Seller Protection for digital goods and other electronically-delivered items.
Question #1
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online.
Assuming that PayPal can enter the appropriate number from the Delivery Confirmation shipping receipt on the USPS website (http://www.usps.com/shipping/epstrac.htm) and determine that the item in question was actually shipped, is there ever a situation that would not satisfy the above condition (as part of the seller protection program)?
YES or NO
Question #2
This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address.
With the understanding that Delivery Confirmation does not provide any concrete evidence that an item was delivered to any particular address, is it ever possible that the above condition would not be satisfied, even though entering the appropriate number from the Delivery Confirmation shipping receipt on the USPS website shows that the item was delivered?
YES or NO
Question #3
Is there ever any situation in which a Delivery Confirmation receipt which allows for online confirmation of delivery would not also be considered as acceptable proof of shipping to the Confirmed Address?
YES or NO
Question #4
Does PayPal consider (for purposes of the seller protection program) that an item, sent using Delivery Confirmation (as provided by the USPS) which shows up as "delivered" on the USPS online website, has in fact, been delivered to the Confirmed Address?
YES or NO
Not to belabor the point, but these are "Yes" or "No" questions. If you elaborate beyond that, you might also want to explain why you feel the need to do so.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:28:55 PM newS918 Delivery Confirmation
Description
Delivery Confirmation service provides the mailer with information about the date and time an article was delivered and, if delivery was attempted but not successful, the date and time of the delivery attempt. Delivery Confirmation service is available only at the time of mailing. This service may be obtained in two forms: (1) an electronic option for mailers who apply identifying barcodes to each piece, provide an electronic file, and retrieve delivery status information electronically; and (2) a retail option for mailers who do not use an electronic file or who wish to retrieve delivery information through the Postal Service Internet address or a toll-free telephone number. No record is kept at the office of mailing. Delivery Confirmation service does not include insurance, but insurance may be purchased as an additional service (see 1.6).
I'm looking for anything here that would indicate that delivery confirmation in any way shows delivery to any address (let alone a Confirmed Address), but I'm not finding it.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:40:47 PM new
mrpotatoheadd:
After reading this, I hope Damon doesn't just revoke his OK of Delivery Confiramtion altogether!
Damon: I hope you can see from my "yes or no" post above (and mrpotatoheadd's Questions #3 and 4) that what I want answered is the following:
If a package doesn't, for whatever reason, get scanned in (Proof of Shipment), will "Proof of Delivery" (to the proper confirmed address) as shown on the USPS website BY ITSELF fulfill the "trackable online" part of the seller protection program?
Yes or no?
Spelling edit...
[ edited by vobistdu on Aug 8, 2001 02:43 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 02:45:37 PM new
vobistdu-
You're only asking part of the question- even if the "trackable online" qualification is met, one has to wonder about the "shipped to confirmed address" qualification, when you consider that the USPS itself does not advertise delivery confirmation as a service to provide any information regarding the specific delivery address.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:53:13 PM new
Perhaps Damon is being "overly generous" again.
Damon, are your answers in this thread as reliable as your assurances up until a few weeks ago that the Seller Protection Policy protects sellers from "quality of merchandise" chargebacks?
Will you be telling us a couple weeks from now that delivery confirmation isn't adequate, but that Paypal has been "overly generous" in accepting it before?
[ edited by booksbooksbooks on Aug 8, 2001 02:54 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 02:57:49 PM new
Hi booksbooksbooks,
Delivery confirmation has been used in many Seller Protection cases to protect sellers from chargebacks. I am checking with the chargeback team on the issue of DC not supplying the address.
posted on August 8, 2001 02:59:36 PM new
Damon: Thanks for your patience in the face of this blizzard. I guess that will be as close as we can get to a "Yes"...?
mrpotatoheadd:
I certainly understand your point that, technically, the USPS only shows delivery to the local post office, not to an actual address.
I'm just sidestepping that interesting pothole because Damon has made it sufficiently clear (for me, anyway) that DC is acceptable, in general terms, for the seller protection mandate.
What I'm concentrating on now is just the "Proof of Shipment" versus "Proof of Delivery" acceptability. Based on Damon's latest answer (above), "Proof of Delivery" BY ITSELF is OK! We'll see....
Edited to add:
mrpotatoheadd: Hope you haven't just lost us the cheapest "online tracking" method acceptable to Paypal....
[ edited by vobistdu on Aug 8, 2001 03:05 PM ]
posted on August 8, 2001 03:45:16 PM new
I'm just a little confused about why folks are pressing this Damon person so hard for an answer. If the actual situation arises, between an actual PayPal member and the company, nothing this person says here will control anyway. The company will just say "well he was wrong." It should be obvious that his function is to carry and relay messages, not make policy. When it comes to an actual decision about whether a seller has to reimburse PayPal for a chargeback, I'm betting the person who makes that decision won't be someone posting on these boards.
posted on August 8, 2001 04:13:55 PM new
It's all a game. Damon pretends to tell the truth. Some of us pretend to believe him; some of us don't. The people who actually believe him end up the losers.
The purse issue involved a Paypal transaction back in May, when Damon was still telling us that sellers were protected from quality of merchandise chargebacks. But when the chargeback came, the seller was not protected.
As I said, only the people who actually believe him end up the losers.
So now we play another round of the game. Damon tells is that delivery confirmation is adequate. Some people actually believe him, then they find out that Paypal won't protect them from chargebacks. As always, the people who actually believe him end up the losers.
After the game is over, Damon will refuse to explain why Paypal refuses to honor the terms it had in effect (as they were explained in Damon's posts and Paypal e-mails) back in May, when the Paypal purse transaction occurred.
posted on August 8, 2001 04:24:10 PM newIt should be obvious that his function is to carry and relay messages, not make policy.
That's all anybody is asking (answer questions and clarify policy), and at times, it seems even that is too much. I don't think there's anybody here that actually thinks damon makes policy, but I suppose I could be wrong...
posted on August 8, 2001 07:29:44 PM new
Just think, if PayPal would just write a clear, concise TOS, covering all the bases and treating its users in a fair, responsible matter --- it could save tens of thousands of dollars a year in salary for a fire marshal for a bunch of piddly message boards that only a minority of people read.
(OR it could give poor Damon other duties that actually make money.)
posted on August 8, 2001 08:19:18 PM newI'm just a little confused about why folks are pressing this Damon person so hard for an answer ... The company will just say "well he was wrong."
We are pressing Damon for an answer, because this exact question on "proof of shipping" vs. "proof of delivery" has been asked countless times, by myself, and numerous others, and we have never gotten an answer. Now that Damon seemingly has shown some interest to put it to rest, I think we are all interested to do that as well, and get a concrete answer.
If Damon is not empowered to issue official statements of the company policy, then what the *** is he doing reading and responding to issues on these boards? That is his job that Paypal pays him to do, as I understood it.
posted on August 8, 2001 10:08:44 PM new
No answer yet? I'm thinking, for a company who has their policies in place, a response to these questions shouldn't be too hard of a request to answer.
posted on August 9, 2001 12:47:33 PM new
Almost a day later- still no answer. If PayPal's policy regarding delivery confirmation was truly defined, I'd think the questions above could have easily been answered by now.
posted on August 9, 2001 01:01:12 PM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
The company has been using delivery confirmation for close to a year now in resolving Seller Protection issues. Yes, it can be used (no different than what was stated in the past). I am addressing the concerns about the address part of the query.
As a guide, as has been stated in the past, delivery confirmation is accepted if it can be tracked online (just like any other method of shipping that can be tracked online).
I can point you to threads about claims being resolved (if it helps you).
posted on August 9, 2001 01:30:14 PM newI can point you to threads about claims being resolved (if it helps you)
No, that wouldn't really help. What would help is if you could answer this question, YES or NO:
If a seller purchases Delivery Confirmation from the USPS, and subsequent entry of the number from the DC receipt into the USPS online tracking system indicates that the item was shipped and delivered, does this always, without exception satisfy the requirement bolded below (from PayPal's TOU):
The seller can provide reasonable proof-of-shipment which can be tracked online. This documentation must show that you shipped to the Confirmed Address.
in PayPal's seller protection plan?
[ edited by mrpotatoheadd on Aug 9, 2001 01:31 PM ]
posted on August 9, 2001 01:37:26 PM new
Hi mrpotatohead,
Where have I not said "Yes" to the below question?I am not aware of any cases where it has not been accepted.
Yes, this is sufficient.
If a seller purchases Delivery Confirmation from the USPS, and subsequent entry of the number from the DC receipt into the USPS online tracking system indicates that the item was shipped and delivered, does this always, without exception satisfy the requirement bolded below (from PayPal's TOU):
posted on August 9, 2001 01:53:46 PM new
Based on that information, a seller could send an item to someone other than the legitimate buyer (delivery confirmation would show shipped/delivered), buyer could do a chargeback through their credit card company for non-receipt of merchandise, seller could satisfy PayPal's seller protection program requirements, and PayPal would absorb the loss.
posted on August 9, 2001 02:01:13 PM new
Ok- let's try it again...
Based on that information, a seller could send an item to someone other than the legitimate buyer, but tell PayPal that it was sent to the confirmed address (delivery confirmation would show shipped/delivered), buyer could do a chargeback through their credit card company for non-receipt of merchandise, seller could satisfy PayPal's seller protection program requirements, and PayPal would absorb the loss.
