posted on February 26, 2001 10:32:22 PM new
Marie, I appreciate that you take a huge risk in listing that many auctions at that low a price. But what we disagree on is the assumption of expenses that an auction seller should take as a part of doing business. For instance, if you were to simply charge posting rate for all of your CDs, and instead eat packaging, etc. as a (deductible) expense of doing business (and I do understand it must be huge for you), would your business still be profitable? My impression is that it would be. So is charging the fee in and of itself a profit center? What percentage of your fees in addition to actual shipping is profit?
I hope you can see that freedoms can co-exist--you are free to turn what I consider ordinary expenses over to the buyer to be paid, or even to make a profit off of handling over and above expenses---but I am also free to criticize you for doing so. We will have to agree to disagree on what you consider "fair" and "ethical".
posted on February 26, 2001 10:37:37 PM new
sorry for upsetting you joice and i wont use the word moron again. i did not direct it to anyone though. tapatti and jareth did make good points also, do you have an answer to their question? would it be ok if I replaced moron with "christian." the 2 words are interchangable to me anyway.
why do you guys even argue with these christains? most of the sellers here clearly laid out their costs breaking down everything and these christians keep pounding the same stupid useless point! you're forgetting that the people on this board are the same type of people that vote for eminem or backstreet boys as artist of the year. get over it!
One Step...
Two Steps...
[ edited by gettingcloser on Feb 26, 2001 11:12 PM ]
posted on February 26, 2001 10:52:21 PM newwould it be ok if I replaced moron with "christian." the 2 words are interchangable to me anyway.
gettingcloser
Your comments are insulting and have earned you an informal warning. I have reviewed the other posts you have made within the Message Center and would strongly suggest you review the Community Guidelines, paying particular attention to the basic etiquette clause, before posting again. To say you are "getting closer" to suspension of your posting privileges is an understatement.
Jereth,
Even if the moderators know an AW member is a moron (via medical certificate, note from their mother - whatever), the CGs dictate that it's still unacceptable.
posted on February 26, 2001 10:58:03 PM new
Brighid, you and I must agree to disagree. I find your suggestion that a seller 'eat' the legitimate costs of shipping/handling as a 'cost of doing business' unrealistic. Moreover I feel that the 'actual shipping' price of an item must INCLUDE the overhead items mentioned earlier. To suggest that the 'actual shipping' cost of a 55c stamped item is 55c is LESS accurate then the method and quote that we us.
As detailed earlier, I 'build in' NO 'profits' to our pricing. If you are suggesting that we drop our shipping and handling prices to the actual dollar amount of the stamps on our envelopes (in the hopes, I suppose, of making it back on increased bids on our items in the same amount), I can only note that to find out the answer to this would require a lengthy and potentially expensive experiment on eBay over a period of time.
thx Marie
PS: I find gettingcloser's latest response awfully clever.... What bothers me is his use of 'your' rather than 'you're'.
posted on February 26, 2001 10:58:20 PM new
ok, im sorry. maybe that was insulting. but i still don't understand why i cant use other words to replace things. if i did use the word christian why would that be wrong if i am not saying moron?
One Step...
Two Steps...
posted on February 26, 2001 11:01:16 PM new
ps. i really am not trying to be smart michelleg. i will not insult anyone any furthur. but i really don't see why putting a word to replace another word would be wrong.
One Step...
Two Steps...
posted on February 26, 2001 11:15:25 PM new
I'm not suggesting that charging actual postage (which, to me, IS the amount of *postage* on the envelope, but as we've both said, we can agree to disagree) would actually make you any more money in bids. I'm sure that as you've already found, there are plenty of buyers who just don't care and will pay handling charges as well as excessive handling charges (note that I am not against the former, only the latter, and as a matter of fact I don't consider yours specifically to be excessive until you gave the $20 for $50 example). So the cost of supplies, paying your employees, etc. would come out of your profits. I understand NOBODY is happy about that, but I run my business that way, and I don't think it's unrealistic. My profits were the money I had left over AFTER I'd paid for things such as envelopes, employee salaries, insurance, etc. It can be done and successfully so---I had several successful businesses before I began selling on Ebay.
There are all kinds of things one can do to make more money when one is in business. That doesn't mean that all of them are right. I am sure you do many things right financially but that doesn't mean that they are all ethical. Nor does the fact that many giant companies handle (no pun intended) certain costs this way by tacking them on for the consumer make it right, either. Nor does a large number of consumers eagerly sending in their consent/payment make it right.
posted on February 26, 2001 11:25:19 PM new
tapatti....everyone in America is free to make a buck just about however they wish, and since we have free speech, anyone else can look critically at their buck-making activities and comment upon them, without fear of official reprisal. Isn't that just the coolest? I'm so damn glad sometimes I live in America and not in the Middle East or other regions where I'm not allowed to comment on behaviors I find unfair or unethical.
In any case, I would rather be on the unpopular side of arguing *for* ethics, than the *popular* side of arguing against them, as you're doing. Hey, since nobody else in corporate America is required to be fair or ethical, I guess you don't have to either...that's your prerogative. I'm just different, that's all....my momma taught me well as a kid that just because A or B or C was doing such-and-such misbehavior and getting away with it, and benefiting from that behavior with all kinds of financial and other kinds of rewards, DIDN'T make it right. And that's still true.
posted on February 26, 2001 11:49:10 PM new
This thread has my name on it. I charge $4 shipping and handling and mail CDs for around a buck. Gee, is this the third time I've posted this today? And I'm sure I've overlooked a couple of "sellers gouging on shipping" threads. Ho hum.
One thing I notice is that every good reason in the world won't convince some people that sellers aren't ripping them off. They just desperately need to believe others are out to get them. Clearly a case of Freudian projection. If you don't know what that means, look it up.
My choice of $4 s/h has nothing to do with priority rate. In fact, I was charging $4 for shipping (and handling, or do I need to include that every time? ) back when rates were $3.50 for priority. Make of that what you will. As for priority, when I ship boxed software, it goes priority, and I charge $5 for that.
Actually, I believe that my time is worth MORE than the $2 handling fee I get per item. As I pointed out in another thread, the deadbeats and idiots who always forget to tell me which item they're buying, and the buyers who claim their packages never arrived, take up a lot of my time and money. This IS a business for me, and since I can't build those costs into the final value, they are recovered through a small handling or transaction fee.
The last thing I'll mention is that for some reason, buyers who have your (my) email address, seem to think this makes us best buds, and they can email, threaten, harass, etc., at any hour of the night or day. How many of these same people will write to Amazon.com support to ask, "did you ship my item yet" or quibble about a $.50 handling fee? The newbies are the worst. I love getting lectured from some (1) feedback buyer about eBay policy.
posted on February 26, 2001 11:59:56 PM new
michelle g, please answer my questions. i really want to comply but i need to know the answer to my question above. also, you said that "you read my other posts" but i have not posted anything that could even be remotely considered "insulting" before this post so what posts are you talking about?thanks for your help.
[ edited by gettingcloser on Feb 27, 2001 12:18 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 12:17:05 AM newgettingcloser
From the Community Guidelines:
A moderation call may be discussed only in the Moderator's Corner, not in the thread where the moderation call occurred. In addition, a moderation call may be appealed if you believe it was issued unfairly.
You may either post your question in the Moderator's Corner, as directed by the CGs, or appeal the decision by email [email protected].
posted on February 27, 2001 12:18:10 AM new
twinsoft, I read what you wrote, and I just don't get it. Why? Why are you selling an item which sells for such a small amount that you have to "recover" some portion of it with handling? That's the part of it I just don't understand. If the sale of the item itself doesn't most of the time (let's say 90% of the times you sell it) cover your costs and make a profit, then why do you continue to sell it? It just makes no sense to me to sell anything that needs any handling to make it in any way profitable. I know you can't predict what your items will sell for, but often you can look at past sales (your own or other peoples') and see what the potential for that item is and get a rough idea. Why would you continue down a road that doesn't bring in enough on its own, to the point where you have to adopt a handling fee which obviously causes a lot of discontent among many buyers? (whether they complain to you or not, it's clear that many dislike the fees.) Doesn't it make more sense to sell something that gives you a good enough profit without this additional "recovered" fee?
I am not trying to be a smart-alec. I just don't get that way of doing business. If I were selling stuff that didn't regularly make a profit then I'd sell something else. I wouldn't decide "well, I'll add a handling fee so I can keep selling this item with fewer risks."
posted on February 27, 2001 12:49:03 AM new
"Next time you want to buy a DVD or a tape, and you want a decent price from a reputable seller who won't stiff you or try to 2-bit you to death with all of these nonsense charges, try clicking on any of the 1000's of DVD etailers instead on eBay."
I've bought appr. 100 items on ebay and I can't recall ever being stiffed by anyone. I had one situation but got my money back. I posted the average amount I paid on handling fees on another thread a while back (I believe the average is $1). Some people charged less, some higher, yet it averaged out.
Compare that to large companies I have bought from previous to ebay and the shipping was twice as high, orders never received, orders taking 6 months to arrive, and even damaged items.
I don't hide behind handles. My customers, and the sellers I buy from know me by my real name. I've had nice discussions with my customers even though it was through email. I don't value people who judge me by my handle very highly. It suggests that you are pretentious.
Anyway, the typical total I pay on ebay for a book is $10. In person I'd pay over $20. If I bought on Amazon I'd pay $18 with s/h. I don't bid very high and if the seller charges a couple extra bucks on handling to make a profit, so be it. I want that seller making a profit so they can survive and be around for me to buy from them again.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:51:08 AM new
twinsoft
Gotta agree with your statements.
People think that sellers on Ebay should charge exact postage, but think nothing of paying high shipping/handling charges to large mail order businesses.
As a buyer, if the price is a bargain at $4.00 s&h. I don't care how much it actually costs to ship. I agree to the price, regardless of "actual" postage and I don't even pay attention to the postage on the package when I get it. If the item isn't a bargain at $4.00 s&h, I don't bid. There's very little logic in the high shippin & handling charges complaints. Be smart and you will not get "ripped off" on s&h.
Many buyers want sellers to bend over backwards to cater to their every whim. They want you to be very patient in wating for late payments and then demand instantaneous shipping on receipt of payment. They want sellers to take any form of payment they desire to send, totally free use of credit cards at the expense of the seller, seller to pay for packaging materials and they think that the sellers time is worth nothing.
The seller pays (non refundable) listing fees and encounters hundreds of deatbeats per year then there's final value fees and online payment service fees (just for starters).
There is bounced check fees when buyers overdraw their checking accounts (they seldom ever make good). When you get a check back you hope to God that you haven't already sent the package.
Buyers want the seller to pay shipping both ways if a mistake is made or a flaw is missed or they just didn't read the description closely. How many mail order companies pay shipping (both ways) if there is a return? None that I know of! I've lost a lot of money on returns that were not my fault but the fault of the buyer for NOT READING CAREFULLY.
It is a wonder that more sellers don't charge high s&h fees.....
[ edited by outoftheblue on Feb 27, 2001 12:55 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 01:02:43 AM new
Shipping and handling fees are becoming the norm. In part because that allows sellers to quote a fixed s/h cost to US buyers (something most buyers appreciate), but also because the sellers that are weathering the storm as profit margins decline, are the ones who know how to do the math and charge what they are worth.
Reasonable buyers don't mind paying for that.
In the categories I sell in, most regular sellers now charge $3.50, $4.00, or $4.50 for s/h on US shipments. Actual postage on these ranges from $1 to $3.95, occasionally a bit more. Most sellers raised their fixed s/h in recent months, in part due to postal increases. I take a look at what my competitors are charging from time to time to make sure I'm in the ballpark.
It's not about honesty, or ethics, or cheating anyone out of anything. It's about finding a business model that works.
posted on February 27, 2001 01:08:50 AM new
sending items Media Rate that don't qualify for Media Rate will help your business plan work better too. You can check with other sellers and see that lots of them are doing it. Many businesses do it, not just on Ebay. And golly, many buyers appreciate it, too!
posted on February 27, 2001 01:19:00 AM new
freedom of speech is losing again.
i was wrong for saying morons.
i was wrong for saying a seller "sucked" because they ripped off their buyers.
i was wrong because i wanted to use the word christian in my posts.
i dont care what people believe. i don't see what the big deal is if i say a word to replace another word. that should not be a big deal as there is nothing wrong with that.
people do it all the time!
people say "pooie" instead of the the "s" word. so if we can't replace words, then how can we speak english? the english language in ameriaka is chopped up words from other languages.
---------------------
posted on February 27, 2001 01:29:50 AM new
sending items media rate that don't qualify isn't the issue (that's wrong, but not the point here).
This is what happens every time folks cannot articulate and defend their position, they attempt to abfuscate the issue by bringing in irrelevant circumstances.
If you don't want to pay $4 for shipping and handling, just move on to the next auction. There's 5 million of 'em on eBay alone.
If you think the final price with $4 shipping and handling is a good deal, go for it!
posted on February 27, 2001 02:58:23 AM new
>>If the sale of the item itself doesn't ... cover your costs and make a profit, then why do you continue to sell it? It just makes no sense to me to sell anything that needs any handling to make it in any way profitable.<<
You are confusing profit with handling.
>>Why are you selling an item which sells for such a small amount that you have to 'recover' some portion of it with handling?<<
I don't recover anything. I sell what I do because I enjoy it. I create my own products for eBay, and I believe they are valuable. I was the first seller on eBay to offer an ad generator software program, years ago, long before AW templates or eBud or Auction Assistant or Amigo or any of the big boys who came later. I've helped thousands of eBay sellers get started, and helped them get more money for the items they listed by including HTML, FTP and photo tutorials. A person can buy my my program for $5 and use it to increase their sales by thousands of dollars.
I was the second seller on eBay to offer a sniping software program. Some smarty-pants beat my out by a month. I've helped thousands of eBay buyers win items for far less than they would have paid without my program. That also sells for $5. I could sell it for more, but I like to do volume sales. It gives me a sense of satisfaction to sell LOTS.
Basically, my strategy is to sell items as cheaply, and as many as I can. I like to sell, and it's not all about the money. I use a fixed price for handling because my time is worth it. And with low-price, high-volume sales, a handling fee is necessary just to protect the seller from taking a beating. Magazine_Guy made a lot of good points. Reasonable customers know they're getting a good deal.
posted on February 27, 2001 03:57:30 AM new
I posted this on another thread, but it is just as relevant here!:
I honestly cannot believe the lack of customer service knowledge and total disrespect some sellers have to the people that put the bread and butter on our tables - the buyers.
It is pretty obvious to me that the buyers HATE the type of deceptive shipping practices and costs, and the profit-on-shipping schemes of so many of the sellers on ebay today.
The buyers you people are angering and that are not returning to ebay because of it are MY POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS!
Some of you sellers are reacting to the buyers concerns with downright nastiness at worst; with lack of understanding at best.
How would you folks like to be treated by a company / sales person the way you are treating our buyers here on this forum? You wouldn't be happy, I'm sure.
The buyers are saying over and over again that: 1) They DON'T LIKE a flat fee without explanation of what it covers EXACTLY i.e. the type of shipping, how much is handling, etc.
2) They DON'T LIKE profit made at the shipping end - please don't use the excuse that it is to keep your prices low "for the customer" - it is to keep your prices low to lure the customer to by your product over someone who is making their profit on the item rather than the shipping, as it should be!
THESE ARE OUR CUSTOMERS SPEAKING! It would behoove us to listen to them and answer them WITH ALL THE COURTESY DUE OUR CUSTOMERS AND POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS, and to try to implement them in our sales.
Magazine Guy - as a rep. of the OAUA, I am very unhappy that the OAUA condones what the buyers obviously find unethical.
Has anyone here read the BIDPAY threads? The sellers are up in arms (including me) about the way we are being spoken to, that our concerns are not being addressed, that the answers are turse, unprofessional and arogant. Well, some sellers here are treating the buyers the same way. I can't understand this.
To all you buyers who have been spoken to with such obvious contempt and disrespect by the sellers on this thread (even calling them WHINERS and MORONS!!) - I feel the need to apologize for this and say that this is not the view of the ebay sellers that still keep their customers wishes and needs in mind when conducting their sales.
The only suggestion I can make is to bid on items where the shipping is described, or where you can get a concrete answer before the auction is over, of what the shipping covers. If you are happy with the answers you receive, then bid; if not, strike that seller from your list.
So many sellers are saying how things aren't what they used to be, sales are down, etc. etc.
Maybe we as a group should be looking at what WE are doing to cause this to happen; how sellers are turning customers away with our arogant "don't like it? don't bid!" attitudes.
I thought we had a representative body of ethical sellers are members - ie members of the On-line Auction Users Organization. (OAUA). Now I'm not sure if even that is true anymore.
BUYERS - ebay is getting to be a tough world for you folks. Write to sellers before you bid; get a feel for their level of customer service, their honesty, etc. Once you have found these sellers, use them as reference to other sellers. Most sellers buy as well, and know other ethical sellers. A seller with good customer service will not mind you asking lots of questions of ALL kinds!
I notice more and more threads of sellers saying that buyers are starting to dictate the shipping procedure. Well, no wonder! The unethical sellers are producing a breed of hard-nosed buyers (they are the only ones that can last in such a negative environment) that are saying that they won't take it anymore. AND UNDERSTANDABLY SO!
Just to clarify - I am a seller, and a some-times buyer, not the other way around. AND before you say I'm against handling charges, I am not against them, I am just FOR FULL DISCLOSURE so that buyers can bid with full knowledge of what the costs cover, and if they are being used to make profit!
posted on February 27, 2001 04:55:40 AM new
mrpotatohead: "Does the grocery store give you an itemized breakdown of the cost for a gallon of milk? Mine doesn't- maybe I should ask before buying?"
Maybe you should
How about this choice offered by your grocery store:
1 Gallon of milk in a hermetically sealed plastic container - $5.00
1 Gallon of milk in a hermetically sealed plain brown paper bag - $4.00
posted on February 27, 2001 04:57:23 AM newOXFORD: THANK YOU! You & London seem to be about the only 2 who understood my original post!
I'm ALL IN FAVOR of sellers making loads of moola!
I'm ALL IN FAVOR of sellers charging handling fees!
Everytime I post here, it is in SUPPORT of SELLERS!
BUT, what has been driving me nuts lately is the shipping of OOP videos in PAPER ENVELOPES with $1.00 postage!
I have shipped over 200 videos since May, 2000, and not one has ever been damaged or lost. But, of the 12 I have recently purchased on eBay, 2 were a TOTAL LOSS!
posted on February 27, 2001 05:05:59 AM new
tapatti ...
"First: RB... Your comments about Quickdraw's handle were rude ..."
Maybe, but 'an eye for an eye' ("Maybe that's why you are called RB, not very much thought into that name."
"Some people have small children and it's difficult to bop around town."
Some people have small children and love to take them them with them as they bop around town ... I certainly did when mine were young
"Some people are housebound due to physical reasons such as being disabled or wheel-chair bound."
Agreed - I'll give you that one
"Some people CAN'T stand for long periods of time in retail check-out lines."
Why???
"And in some cities traffic as well as stopping at the wrong red light can be fatal and life-ending."
You just lost all your crediblity with this one
"Also comparing a hobbyist TRADING videos to someone trying to make an honest buck by RETAIL SELLING videos is irrelevant."
Spot On! You have finally figured it out. eBay never used to be about RETAIL SELLING of anything. Good one Most RETAILERS make their profit on the product, not how it's packaged or delivered.
"What did you do for a living before you retired?"
Alas, I am not retired yet
"Was your paycheck derived from as you said
all of these nonsense charges"
I work in the health care field where huge amounts of money are wasted daily. My salary is just another form of waste, I guess ...
posted on February 27, 2001 05:24:03 AM new
tomwii,
You are VERY welcome -
Many of the sellers here don't WANT to hear what you are trying to say. It is obvious (to me, anyway), that they do not wish to disclose the breakdown of fees (i.e. how much is postage, how much is handling), as then buyers would be able to make an informed decision and by-pass their auctions. Non-disclosure and/or deceipt can be very profitable!
For the ones who make all their profit from handling, I wonder what their repeat customer stats are like?
Oh, well. You just KNOW you are not going to be able to change some peoples minds to think pro-customer AND pro-profit instead of just pro-profit.
I have started a new thread regarding the possibility of starting a new sellers' organization in which the code of conduct includes full disclosure of shipping/handling.
I am hoping that those who are in agreement with this concept will post and give their thoughts on how to proceed.
posted on February 27, 2001 05:51:43 AM new
I recently won an auction on Sothebys.com. The shipping and handling fee for the lot was $37. I live in Baltimore, Sothebys is in New York. I have driven to New York many times, and I know that the cost for gasoline and tolls is about $35.
For three days I sat by my window waiting. Each time a fancy car came down the road I got all excited. I wondered what kind of cars their delivery people drove. How neat, a personal delivery from Sothebys. I bet my neighbors will be jealous.
On the third day a FedEx truck pulled up in front of my house and the driver got out with a small package.
You can not imagine how furious I was to find that Sothebys had the nerve to send the package FedEx after charging me the cost to deliver it personally. What an outrage. Anyone that read the auction would assume that someone from Sotheby was going to drive to their house to deliver the item. What a bunch of crooks.
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