posted on February 27, 2001 06:01:56 AM new
tomwiii
There is no "nice" way to put this but most people who get taken are too lazy to edify themselves. You can't blame a seller for your lack on informing yourself.
If you were buying a new car would you just "assume" the dealer was giving your their best price? I hope not.
There is information on line to give you all the information you need on shipping costs, if you chose not to use it, then whose fault is it that you pay more?
Try taking the time to become educated on true costs. We charge ONLY actual costs, and any of our buyers can easily go to these links and check shipping costs for themselves, just as you could:
Now, armed with this information you have no more reason to complain.
These constant complaints from people too lethargic to check things for themselves is like listening to someone who never votes complaining about elected officials.
[ edited by insightwatcher on Feb 27, 2001 06:04 AM ]
[ edited by insightwatcher on Feb 27, 2001 06:06 AM ]
[ edited by insightwatcher on Feb 27, 2001 06:07 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 06:09:01 AM new
Blaming the buyer for not uncovering deceiptful shipping charges and practices is not a very customer oriented way of thinking.
Should buyers look at ebay sellers as a bunch of used-car salesmen that they have to distrust before getting "all" the information?
It is up to the seller to put "all" the information in their ad. Let's make this a customer friendly place to do business!
Most buyers ARE aware of the cost of postage; that is exactly why they are so supprised when they believe they have paid for priority when in fact most of the shipping cost was profit. They ARE armed with the proper information, and that is WHY they hate feeling like they have been taken.
Insidewatcher, I don't think you are understanding tomwii's (and many other buyers) complaints. If you had written in your ad, these are actual shipping costs, at $4.00, then it arrives in a $1.00 postage envelope, do you not think they have a right to be upset? It is this non-disclosure of the shipping cost vs handling cost and/or non-disclosure of the type of shipping that is angering (and rightfully so, IMO) the buyers.
posted on February 27, 2001 06:20:55 AM new
Yeah, you're right...& I have stated that buyers SHOULD email beforehand; although that also CAUSES PROBLEMS!
Can you imagine the response if I email any of youse guys with the following:
"Dear Mr. Seller:
I notice that your auction states "$4.00 SHIPPING" -- is that for Priority Mail Shipping or are you going to throw the video into a cheap flimsy paper envelope & GOUGE me by sticking $0.75 postage on it?"
Yeah, right! I can just imagine the defensive & upleasant replies to that!
THE TRUTH IS: buyers SHOULD NOT HAVE to ask -- if it is designed to decieve & gouge by APPEARING TO BE PRIORITY but ain't!
posted on February 27, 2001 06:36:07 AM new
I notice that your auction states "$4.00 SHIPPING" -- is that for Priority Mail Shipping or are you going to throw the video into a cheap flimsy paper envelope & GOUGE me by sticking $0.75 postage on it?"
If you phrased it like that, you bet your sweet bippy I'd be one very annoyed seller.
Then again, I charge 4.50 priority shipping with confirmation, and state so right in the ad.
[ edited by Btrice on Feb 27, 2001 06:37 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 06:40:02 AM new
Yes, this is a scam. Rationalize it all you want by comparing it to the way mail order businesses do things, it's still a scam. Justify it all you want by saying that it is technically not against eBay rules, or that it's the bidders' fault for not asking questions, it's still a scam.
Anyway you slice it, it's still a scam.
The issue is not whether the seller has a right to recoup their expenses. When I sell a watch I use the free Priority boxes, but if I were to sell books or videos and had to buy my own mailers or boxes I would probably want to pass at least some of that cost on to the bidder. The difference, though, is that I would be up front about it and call it "handling" instead of hiding the charge in the amorphous and ambiguous term "shipping". I've also never bothered to charge bidders for the bubble wrap and packing peanuts I use, but I suppose if I were selling low cost items with a slim profit margin it might be more of an issue. Again, though, I would make it clear that this is what I am charging for, and not purposely mislead the bidder into thinking they are paying for Priority Mail service when all they're getting is a $0.50 padded envelope. And I wouldn't even THINK about charging the bidder for such things as time spent at the post office, gas, etc., but even if I did I would STILL make sure the bidder knows they are paying for those costs and not just call it "shipping".
More importantly, though, most of these high shipping scams really have NOTHING to do with the seller trying to recoup his costs. If the seller wanted to do that, all they would have to do is raise their opening bid price to the point where all their costs are included in the starting bid. Of course, if they did that they wouldn't sell as much, which is why they resort to this SCAM in order to dupe people into bidding. They set their bid price artificially low to attract bidders and then tack on their inflated "shipping" costs at the end in order to make their profit. And, since they don't have to pay eBay fees on the shipping charges, it is pure profit.
The scam is not that sellers are recouping their expenses by charging handling fees. The scam is that sellers are keeping their eBay fees low and attracting customers with artificially low prices, and then making their real profit on arbitrary "shipping" fees. And it's even MORE of a scam when they charge amounts that are DESIGNED to make bidders think that they are getting Priority Mail service.
Just because it may be an "accepted business practice" in other situations such as mail-order businesses doesn't make it any less of a scam.
Just because the bidders should know enough to ask the seller and find out what the charges are actually for doesn't make it any less of a scam.
Just because eBay allows it to slide under their "Fee Avoidance" rules doesn't make it any less of a scam.
Charging "shipping" to cover your costs is one thing. Charging "shipping" just to increase your profits is a scam, plain and simple. The only amazing thing is that some of the scammers seem genuinely puzzled as to why so many bidders are upset at them.
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
[ edited by godzillatemple on Feb 27, 2001 06:41 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 06:49:07 AM new
YOU GO, GODZILLA!
A great, intelligent answer deserves a great THANK YOU! I can't see how ANYONE can argue with such fantastic logic, but they will try, and try, and try.....
posted on February 27, 2001 07:02:54 AM new
Of COURSE they will try! What, you expect somebody to say "you're right, I'm a scammer"?
Heck, even murderers caught in the act -- smoking gun in hand and 20 eye witnesses -- still plead "Not Guilty" in front of the judge.
Scammers know they are scammers, and they certainly don't need us to try and "prove" it to them. I just wish they would stop trying to prove to us that they AREN'T scammers! Just admit it and move on, folks. And if you can't live with the knowledge of what you are, you can always change....
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 08:26:52 AM new
The solution here folks is simple. The seller should have simply stated the video was up for bid at $15 with FREE SHIPPING. She would have bought it and said what a wonderful seller FREE SHIPPING....
Or some of these bidders should try to auction maybe 1200 items a month at dirt cheap garage sale prices and pay ebay fees, paypal fees, boxes, gas, shipping, labor, computers, printers, and make a living on a lousy $1200 a month for a family of 2.
If the seller posted $4 shipping add it to your bid and folks thats what it cost. It really dosnt matter how its shipped. What matters is if it gets to you safely and the final TOTAL cost you paid is less than what you would have paid RETAIL.
A SELLERS JOB IS NOT EASY. I KNOW!
I also bid as well and if I see shipping or shipping and handling is MORE THAN I AM WILLING TO PAY I simply DO NOT BID.
Folks its supposed to be a community and were all supposed to be mature adults. Can't we all just get along.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:42:24 AM new
"The seller should have simply stated the video was up for bid at $15 with FREE SHIPPING."
Does eBay allow this? I'm sure that they could find some obscure rule in their Policies Volumes that says this is a No No
"Or some of these bidders should try to auction maybe 1200 items a month at dirt cheap garage sale prices and pay ebay fees, paypal fees, boxes, gas, shipping, labor, computers, printers, and make a living on a lousy $1200 a month for a family of 2."
Stop it already ... you're breaking my heart! Who forced you to decide to use eBay to make a living? I know I'll get flamed for this, but try to get a "real" job to support your family That way, at least you'll know what's coming in every month and you won't have all of these problems (fees etc.) to worry about.
Reminds me of the poor family on welfare ... you know, the one with 6 able-bodied adults who can afford to smoke and drink and ride around in taxis all day, but can't afford to feed their kids without the welfare cheque ...
I don't get paid to do nothing. As a matter of fact, I don't get paid much to do what I do! But, I chose my profession. If I didn't like it, or could not support my family, I would chose something else. eBay whingers have exactly the same choice
And before I start hearing from all of those shut-ins who NEED eBay to survive, what did you do before eBay came along???
"If the seller posted $4 shipping add it to your bid and folks thats what it cost."
You are right, but when you see the package with 90 cents postage stuck on it, you 'feel' like you have been ripped off.
"Folks its supposed to be a community and were all supposed to be mature adults. Can't we all just get along."
Good point, except it's not really a "community" anymore ... at least not like it was a few years ago when it was fun and before the big time sellers took over. Now it's no different than any other etailer. I don't feel a sense of community any more with eBay than I do with Amazon.com.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:45:44 AM newwebnet2000: Nobody ever said sellers had to offer their stuff at "dirt cheap garage sale prices" and then eat all the costs themselves. Believe it or not, I am also a seller and I hate bidders who think they are entitled to get everything for nothing.
The problem is, though, that SOME sellers [and you may not be one, so please don't take it personally] like to PRETEND that they are selling stuff at "dirt cheap garage sale prices" when, in fact, they are actually using deceptive "shipping" or "handling" fees to make their profit. Not cover their costs -- [b]MAKE THEIR PROFIT![b] Somebody who buys a widget for $1, lists it on eBay for $0.01 and then charges $2.00 for "shipping" ABOVE AND BEYOND THEIR ACTUAL COSTS has just scammed both eBay and the bidder out of $0.99 [more, if the widget actually sells for over $0.01]. Is it "legal"? Sure, why not. Is it still a scam? You betcha!
These are the sellers who know that bidders love a bargain and will dangle a low starting price as the bait, and then use the "shipping" or "handling" fee as the switch. They are the used car salesmen of the on-line auction community who feel they are perfectly justified in what they are doing and who "just can't understand" why the bidders get upset at them. These are the wannabe lawyers and ad executives who just LOVE to use "fine print" so they can effectively eviscerate what the rest of the offer says.
At least with a reserve auction it says right at the top "Reserve Not Met" -- bidders don't have to dig through lengthy TOS to find out that the great bargain they thought they were getting has evaporated.
Regards,
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 08:54:28 AM newwebnet,I am happy to pay $4.00 s/h. I just want the seller to tell me in the TOS what is included in the $4.00 s/h price. I'm often bidding on presents and I want to receive them quickly. Since I know that the item can be sent priority for $4.00,it would help if the seller would say $4.00 s/h for media mail. This lets me know that I will have to send more money to get it priority and/or insured.
For the life of me, I don't see what is so difficult for sellers in listing the shipping price, method and carrier. If I see "$6.00 s/h, I use UPS to mail" then I know I don't have to ask if insurance is included since I know that UPS will insure items under $100.00 value. If I see the same terms but with USPS, then I have to email, because I don't know if the seller is planning to insure or if it is handling.
I don't care what you charge, just tell me in your TOS if you're including priority and/or insurance in the shipping fee.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:23:45 AM new
RIGHT ON, LONDON4.
But you may want to check out the "Some Sellers Making More on S/H that sales" thread, where FINALLY a couple of sellers told the truth, that they don't WANT TO TELL BUYERS HOW THEY ARE SHIPPING, OR HOW MUCH THE POSTAGE COSTS ARE!
They feel the buyers are trying to "control" them, that this is somehow a control issue (????) I call it just decent customer service; the buyers want to know the shipping method, so tell them for heaven's sake! AND don't make them e-mail you - state it right in the ad.
I think that we are finally getting closer to the reasons they do not - some kind of odd paranoia about control and keeping their business practices a secret (well, the buyer is going to find out when they get the item, so might as well tell them up front!).
Your logic is so sound, london4, that there really is no argument that could be made against it. But the run-around will continue, with the old standard line - "add the item cost & shipping together, and bid if it is a good price... if not move on..." Sellers are really, really missing the point with that line. If they REREAD london4's post with an open mind, they MAY discover what point they are missing.
edited because I hit submit too soon!
[ edited by oxford on Feb 27, 2001 09:28 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 09:57:14 AM new
As much as it pains me to say this, maybe it's time eBay took control of this problem and forced all sellers to use tick off boxes indicating the exact amounts for each one of these shipping extras. Based on what many of the sellers are telling us, the tick off list could get fairly long (cost of gas to drive to post office, for example, would have to be included along with all the other silly things that they use to justify their graft charge).
If that would be too cumbersome, at least tick off boxes for the method of shipment should be included.
posted on February 27, 2001 10:26:03 AM new
tapetti----I like your analogy about Heathcare.....doesn't the administration of an aspirin in a hospital cost a couple about 50 bucks??? Do they break that down on your bill.....?
posted on February 27, 2001 10:27:14 AM new
Whew!! Sure told me off good eh
"A lot of people do and to the dismay of shopkeepers and adult shoppers alike. See and hear your local Wal-Mart at 9pm."
And statistics prove that kids who are not exposed to these types of activities when they are young may have problems later on. My wife and I used to take our boys to fancy restaurants when they were toddlers. They were very well behaved and didn't bother anyone. There were others at the same restuarants that ran wild. I think the reason some kids misbehave at WalMart (the ones that irritate you so much that you won't go there anymore), and thus force their parents to stay home ("can't take those kids anywhere!" has more to do with parenting, or lack of. I personally believe that the more time a parent can spend with their children, the better off they will be. I'm certainly glad that I spent a lot of time with my boys when they were young and didn't try to use them as an excuse to stay home and avoid the world. Now that they are adults, it's starting to pay off - they treat my wife and I with respect and I believe they will spend just as much time with their kids.
"A relative of mine has 3 kids...2 in car seats...the new modern safe ones that take 10 minutes to strap the kid in and out of.
The 3rd child is not old enough to provide much 'Mommy-help'. Something as simple as running into the Post Office becomes an exhausting ordeal for her. She's a huge E-bay shopper. It's easier and safer for her to stay home."
She made the choice to have kids. If they are such a hassle, why did she have them???
"My mother has chronic knee joint problems and has had multiple surgeries on both knees. She uses a cane and sometimes a walker. It is painful for her to stand for long periods of time and she'd rather not use a Rascal scooter for personal reasons."
Point taken My mother also had to use a walker in her twilight years, and it was very hard for us to pick her up from the Nursing Home and bring her to our home for dinner - especially in the winter when it's -35 degrees with 8 feet of snow on the ground. But you know what? We did it, and again, now that she is gone, we're very glad that we were willing to take a little extra effort with her instead of leaving her in the home to look at the four walls all day long.
"You obviously don't read or watch the news. We live in an increasingly dangerous city and the crime strikes closer and closer to home."
This is such a stupid argument that I won't even bother to address it. Bottom line? "If you can't stand the heat ..."
"How much did my mother get billed for Tylenol tablets? $9.95 a piece as I recall."
Not in Canada! Our patients can also blow their nose once in awhile without getting charged for the Kleenex. Problem is, the "government" (i.e. me and the other taxpayers) end up paying dearly for that Kleenex, only they cleverly disguise it under taxes (kinda like SOME sellers cleverly disguise their greed under "handling" charges).
posted on February 27, 2001 10:35:43 AM new
RB---but I bet the hospital bill said
Tylenol $9.95
it did not say
Tylenol $9.95/ purchase of Tylenol, stocking ward shelf with Tylenol, Nurse removing pill from bottle, Nurse getting water for swallowing of Tylenol, Nurse giving Tylenol to patient, Nurse checking back 15 minutes later to make sure Tylenol was effective, profit for hospital
posted on February 27, 2001 11:01:49 AM newoxford: Are you crazy? If these sellers did that their bidders would KNOW that they are being ripped off and wouldn't bid! Why do you think they just call it "shipping" in the first place?
Barry
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The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on February 27, 2001 11:02:41 AM new
Can I try to summarize?
1. Some buyers would prefer that sellers only charge for the postage.
2. Some buyers don't mind paying handling fees as long as they realize how much goes for handling and how much goes for postage.
3. Some buyers don't care one way or the other because they adjust the amount they're willing to bid accordingly.
4. Some sellers, like myself, prefer to only charge for postage and build their other "handling/packaging" into the bid price.
5. Some sellers don't feel they should pay FVF on handling/packaging, so they put it into the shipping charge.
6. Some sellers have no problem with disclosing their method of shipping so buyers understand the costs involved.
7. Some sellers feel the breakdown of costs is really none of the buyer's business.
Did I get all of that right?
Lots of different opinions out there, that much is obvious.
Hopefully, this discussion has been/will be helpful to some. Unfortunately, when people try to change each others' opinions and try to force others to do business their way, that's what leads to all these personal attacks and petty bickering.
Some of your comments are insulting to anyone who is an eBay seller, particularly to those who do it for their livelihood. I'm issuing you an informal warning.
The CGs require that you posts be guided by the principles of basic etiquette. Please keep that in mind as you post.
Thanks for your cooperation.
Pat
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