posted on February 27, 2001 11:11:15 AM new
tapatti
"RB: You just don't get it do you?"
Guess I don't
"Your advice to them was they should go out locally and buy their products ..."
How does "advice" = "belittling"? Aren't you the one with the dictionary on hand?
"So I'm stupid eh?"
Who said that? Here is what I said: "This is such a stupid argument"
Don't take this so personally !!!
I don't think you are stupid at all, but your arguments about not wanting to drive because you might get rear ended, not wanting to go to WalMart because of the misbehaved kids, and not wanting to go outside at all because some varmit might shoot you leads me to think that you may be just a bit paranoid.
"Your compassion is overwhelming"
Thank you.
Now, you have the last word on our little discussion.
Wait, this is me talking ... D'Oh!!!!
Okay, okay, okay ... say something ... THEN you'll have the last word
PS --- Pat: I accept your informal warning but I don't agree with your logic. I have not insulted any specific individual. Stating my thoughts on "people" (a very general term) who use eBay to make a living is no different than someone else stating their thoughts on those "people" who voted for George Bush, or any of the other generalities that are allowed here ... maybe you oughta issue an informal warning to all of us. This one is getting pretty hot
[ edited by RB on Feb 27, 2001 11:18 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 11:15:22 AM new
Godzillatemple, you put it beautifully and succinctly. Thank you.
The denial here is so thick you could cut it with a knife. Because you are unwilling to admit that there is such a thing as an unreasonable/excessive handling fee, you put yourselves in the embarassing position of defending people who are ripping off the buyers in the most EGREGIOUS way, even if you, yourselves, are charging a reasonable fee. That makes ALL sellers look bad and as a seller, I'll continue to challenge you on this. All I and many buyers are asking for is to know EXACTLY how much will be spent on postage and HOW MUCH will be spent on handling---and yes, you should have that in your auction listings. Don't want to break it down further? then don't. But is asking for a breakdown such as "2.00 1st class postage, 4.00 handling" so much to ask?
Why on earth would you resist doing that minimal bit of disclosure if not to deceive the buyer?
And as for "if you don't like it, don't bid"---I DON'T. However,unlike some people here I don't consider my responsibilities to end at my own front door. I don't want my family, friends, neighbors, acquaintances, co-workers, etc. to get fooled either! I guess I'm just strange that way, but I actually care about the buyers' experiences, because I want them to come back.
posted on February 27, 2001 11:20:33 AM new
When I sell an item---I don't put in the auction what I paid for it--so you can determine what sort of 'profit' I should get with your bid.
And when I put down my shipping price--I don't put down the postage cost or shipping material cost so you can determine if you like my 'profit' here either.
posted on February 27, 2001 11:21:03 AM new
It would be nice to see a bit more civility between buyers and sellers. Some buyers seem to generalize that all sellers are out to rip them off and some sellers are guilty of the same.
We charge exact (priority) shipping + $.50 and do combine items. We still get emails saying that shipping is "too high". I agree! It is too much to pay, but that's the fault of the postal service.
We clearly sate the shipping charge in our auctions. We state that we ship priority mail unless otherwise requested and even include the weight of the package in the auction so people can calculate shipping for themselves if they would like. We also state that there is a $.50 handling fee on all transactions.
We still at times receive emails that say: "why is shipping so high? I can't stand sellers who rip people off...."
Again, I say, be smart. Read the auction description carefully. Figure out how much you want to pay for an item (including shipping & handling charges) and bid accordingly. If the price is above what you want to pay, move on to the next listing. If all buyers did this, there would be no need to complain about excess shipping & handling charges....
Don't ask the seller for an itemized list of charges. You are not a tax auditor. Many sellers find that offensive. If it is not stated in the auction and you must know, a simple "do you ship priority?" email would be fine.
posted on February 27, 2001 11:30:37 AM new
zazzie ... "And when I put down my shipping price--I don't put down the postage cost or shipping material cost so you can determine if you like my 'profit' here either."
I get the impression that most of us complainers are not after an itemization of your costs - I know I'm not. That is your business and however you arrive at them is right for you.
But do you at least put down whether you are mailing it via parcel post, priority mail, or slow boat? I think that is basically all we are asking for in your description.
If you say you need $5.00 for the slow boat, I won't bid. If you say you need (the same) $5.00 for priority mail, then I will bid.
posted on February 27, 2001 11:44:26 AM newRB, well put. Zazzie and outoftheblue, your profit is your own business. I'm not interested, I bid on lots of items and as a buyer it would help me if sellers would include in the shipping quote the method of shipping and whether or not insurance is included in the shipping price. It saves me the trouble of having to email to ask if it is coming priority or standard and if I will need to include more for insurance. Lots of times I don't bid because I catch the item on the going, gone section an don't have time to email.
It would help buyers if you would state in TOS Shipping is $4.00 via USPS standard mail, insurance not included.
posted on February 27, 2001 11:49:46 AM new
outoftheblue
Again, noone has asked for an itemization, and I'm not sure why certain sellers are bringing this up over and over - it confuses the issue, and isn't what has been asked for.
BOTTOM LINE IS SO SIMPLE (which has been said over and over):
1) Sellers should not object to indicating how much is for postage and how much is "other" charges (not itemized), (It's not a secret - the buyer will find out when they get the item - why should they only find out then?)
and/OR
2) Sellers should state in their auction what method of shipping is being used.
It can be one or the other; but one of these should be clarified in the auction ad, so that bidders may make an INFORMED decision to bid.
WHY IS THIS SO DIFFICULT TO DO? As a fellow seller, I really, really don't understand.
Edited to say - I don't think sellers realize that they may be losing bids by NOT doing so - see London4's post above. I, as well, have not bid on the going going gone listings that were not descriptive of shipping. How many bids are lost to this!
posted on February 27, 2001 11:50:05 AM new
RB---you make far too many assumptions. I never said I would not reveal the 'method' of shipping. That I do.
But I will NOT state the the Postage is $X.XX, materials are $X.XX and handling is $X.XX
posted on February 27, 2001 12:02:44 PM new
Zazzie -
What you are doing is all the buyers are asking for - they can do a breakdown themselves then by checking out the USPS or Canada Post sites.
And even if a seller chooses to break the costs down instead, it would only be how much for actual postage; the buyers can do the subtraction to know how much is for materials/handling.
I think you have become defensive over the idea of breaking the costs down almost to an itemization level, when that was not requested.
IN FACT, the tomwii whole complaint was based on the fact that the shipping cost was for a priority amount, but the seller shipped 1st class. The shipping method was NOT stated in the ad.
This would not happen in your case, Zazzie, as you DO state the shipping method. That is all the buyers are asking for. Don't you think that is a fair request of all sellers? Just to know the method of shipping? I believe it is a fair request.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:05:18 PM new
oxford
As I've said before. We put all of that information into our auctions (including, insurance is extra). No, it's not that hard.
Believe it or not, we do at times receive email asking what the $.50 handling fee is for.
At one time we were charging $.75 handling fee (stated in the auction) We had a buyer that asked what it was for. I told here it was to prepare the item for shipment. She didn't like that answer and made some nasty accusations (including mail fraud). All of this over a 75 cent fee which we refunded her via PayPal...
[ edited by outoftheblue on Feb 27, 2001 12:08 PM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 12:07:24 PM newtapatti, You may not know how much materials or postage will cost until the item is wrapped and mailed. What you do know is whether the shipping amount you state includes insurance and whether you are mailing priority or standard. That information you can and should include in your TOS.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:10:52 PM new
outoftheblue,
Unfortunately, every seller who has been around long enough will encounter the "over-the-top" bidder, that, even if you are totally upfront and honest, are still going to make you their personal cause. And not in a good way.
Perhaps the solution to this is to not put the breakdown in the auction, if one is afraid of this type of reaction, but AT LEAST put in the shipping method and wether it does or does not include insurance, and if insurance is available and at what cost; bidders can do their own math from that.
edited to add a line to clarify.
[ edited by oxford on Feb 27, 2001 12:12 PM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 12:14:45 PM new
zazzie ... sorry, but I don't see where I made any assumptions at all about your post. I have no idea of "who" you really are or what you sell. I was simply asking you if you include the method of shipping in your listing.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:36:24 PM new
I agree with Tomwii, if there is a handling fee, sellers should disclose such. Not include handling as part of shipping. Hiding a handling fee inside "shipping" is not standard practice and therefore I consider it deceptive.
However, Oxford's suggestion that sellers break down every little thing that goes into the handling fee is ludicrous, IMO. I keep my terms short. I also state shipping AND handling fees apply. If a buyer is going to see that $4 fee, and ASSUME that $3.95 goes to actual postage, and $.05 is my handling fee, I think that buyer probably needs a course in remedial math.
And I can tell you, even when I post the handling fee, I still get occasional grumbles from customers. I've had more than 15,000 transactions on eBay, and my opinion is, some customers will find a reason to complain about something, anything. If they can't complain about the shipping charges, they will find something else to complain about.
Ninety-nine percent of transactions go smoothly. It's the one percent vocal minority that stick in a seller's side. I've finally learned to do business the way I consider fair, and I don't leave it up to customers to dictate my business practices. If "winner pays $4 shipping and handling" isn't clear enough for you, then move along.
Many customers would be very happy to see a seller take a loss on their auction items. They'd be happy to see sellers eat the expense of shipping. But when it comes to paying a small fee, because the seller needs to pay insurance on all the rip-offs that occur daily, on the actual expenses and the deadbeat bidders, and on the actual time it takes to process their order, then those same customers will be up on their soap boxes, screaming about how the seller is deceiving them. Give me a break!
Go back and read OneCentCDs' comments again. They should be framed over every eBay seller's desk.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:41:43 PM new
Well I for one do not care what the buyer thinks of the shipping charges after they bid and win an auction !
I DO NOT strictly sell videos, cd's, cards, or any stuff like that. Only about 5% of the stuff I sell can go media mail.
If a buyer is expecting their item to be shipped Priority because the auction states $4.00 shipping, then that buyer is assuming something that is not there.
All of my auction state shipping will be $x.xx in the continental u.s.
I learned along time ago that most buyers want to see what the shipping charges are right on the auction so no surprises are waiting for them after the auction ends.
Whether the item goes Parcel or Priority is MY CHOICE. I decide which way I will send it and I DO NOT SHIP PRIORITY ANYMORE - PERIOD.
85% of all the items I sell are breakable and I know for a FACT Priority mail is more likely to get damaged than Parcel or First Class.
Now for all of those buyers whining about how an item is shipped (sorry I am out of cheese). Here is something to consider :
Let's say a certain cab company has a fleet of taxis which consist of Chevy Luminas, Chevy Astro Vans, and Lincoln Town cars. The rate is still the same no matter which vehicle picks you up.
Ok, lets say you call for a cab and the Astro van shows up.
Would you call and whine to the dispatcher about not sending you the Lincoln ??
Would you simply refuse to get in the Astro van because you wanted to ride in a Town Car ??
If it costs the same, who cares what type of vehicle gets you to where you need to go. This holds true for your packages.
If you agreed to pay a certain amount of shipping when you bid, it should be of no concern to you how it is delivered AS LONG AS IT IS DELIVERED.
If I purchased a small light item on ebay and the seller charged me $4.00 to ship and then the item arrives by HOMING PIGEON, it would not bother me one bit.
As long as my item arrives safe, it makes no difference to me.
All of you buyers crying about wanting items shipped Priority should understand this.
Priority mail IS NOT guaranteed to be there in 2-3 days.
Priority mail offers NO benefit aside from having a pretty colored box that is really only a square shaped advertisement for the USPS and it is delivered in a matching truck (which looks like your box with wheels on it)
Priority mail is handled by BOTH the USPS and the airlines so it is more likely to get damaged.
I have shipped hundreds of items out First Class, Bookrate (media mail), Parcel Post, and Priority.
Every single item that has ever been damaged was sent Priority. What does that tell you.
posted on February 27, 2001 12:48:00 PM new
cix ... you cab argument is flawed, at least in all of the cities I have visted during the past 15 to 20 years. A Lincoln or a Caddie is considered a "luxury" car - you pay more for that. If you ordered a luxury car, and got the Lumina, you don't have to pay the bigger fare
posted on February 27, 2001 12:49:35 PM new
I ship mostly books via Surface with Canada POST---sometimes I will cross the border and ship them via Media Mail (which is cheaper in postage cost--but gets to the buyer faster as there is no customs)--I do state this in my TOS that I will sometimes mail for the USA (though it is not at the buyer's request--but at my leisure to do so)--but the shipping cost remains the same.
So--all you mailing experts--should the buyer be refunded for the difference in postage??
posted on February 27, 2001 12:51:08 PM new
"Unfortunately, every seller who has been around long enough will encounter the "over-the-top" bidder,"
IMO, we have encountered a number of them on these latest thread on this very tired subject.
For those who think every seller can state up front what type of shipping they use...forget it, it is not always possible.
I don't state the type of shipping i will use for a very good reason. I don't know for sure . I ship a lot of glass and china items. They are of different size, shape and weight. I try to estimate what the total weight of the package will be, add on some for insurance and a little for my costs (boxes...I use mostly new non-priority...bubble wrap...tape...the money I pay my son to come over twice a week and take my packages to the post office).
But, I don't know exactly how much is those costs and how much is postage until I get to the post office. If I have charged a customer $8.50 to ship a large glass vase and when packing it I realize I need to use a larger box and the box ends up being heavier than I thought it would be and to ship priority will end up costing $10.50 in postage alone I will ship the package parcel post instead (cheaper).
I don't want to be tied to having said I will send it priority when priority means I will lose $3. The customer is NOT going to send me $3 more, nor would I expect him to...but I'll be danged if I'm going to eat it either.
So call me a scammer if you want , say I'm unethical, skip over my auctions...do what you have to do to be comfortable buying and selling on ebay. I'll continue to do as I have done for the last three years. i'm not going to worry if I'm "losing" customers. I have more than enough now, my prices realized are quite acceptable, thank you! Actually, I have noticed that I frequently get BETTER prices than others selling the same thing! So being a cheat, scammer, unethical seller, hasn't hurt me yet....and my feedback PROVES it. My customers are happy and that is all I'm worried about!
posted on February 27, 2001 01:02:05 PM new
Twinsoft,
As someone who was truly at your defense when things were rough at AW about a year ago, I would think that AT LEAST you would give me the respect of really reading my post.
*I* NEVER SAID TO ITEMIZE THE COSTS! I was arguing against that supposition on the part of many of the sellers here.
My argument was to do one or the other so that the buyer can make an informed decision to bid or not:
1) Put in the cost of actual postage as well as the handling fee,
OR
2) Put in the method of shipping so that the buyer themselves can do the math and decide if they want to bid or not.
Why does the buyer need to find out this stuff *after* the auction? Why does it threaten sellers to put in the ad that they would be shipping media rate, or First Class, or priority.
Why would a seller say it is "none of their business"! How non-customer oriented is THAT!
I'm taking enough bashing without false words being put in my mouth - Twinsoft, please retract your statement of what you think I said, as I did not say that at all.
Part of the reason this thread is going on and on is people not reading others posts properly, reading between the lines, (I don't know how the itemized costs thing started, but it was certainly not requested by any of the buyers on this thread!! And it was certainly not by me! )
Can we agree to stop the discussion about itemized costs? Not a single buyer requested more than a simple breakdown of actual postage vs other shipping fees. (2 figures).
posted on February 27, 2001 01:10:17 PM new
A friend of mine (gettingcloser) got me to sign up here on AW becasue they said it was a great place to talk to other people and it was a good program to use for auctions.
However, that friend was booted last night becasue they disagreed with a moderator! They said nothing wrong and all they did was replace words. You guys are doing the same thing "I dont give a flying ()..." is what one of you said!
I don't understand auctionwatch's purpose of cancling members accounts because they disagree with a moderator! The whole argument is listed on the moderators page. Please take a second to look at this. He was unfairly targeted just because he said something she did not like.
[ edited by nobodyknows on Feb 27, 2001 01:13 PM ]
