posted on April 19, 2001 09:56:54 AM new
I'm confused. How can you call EG's e-mail (that you haven't seen) combative and post such confrontational statements?
Perhaps many of the posters on this thread should "take a look in the mirror".
Open your eyes, those of you that are in denial.
Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!
posted on April 19, 2001 10:09:35 AM new
Clearasmud...if you are referring to my post I think you will see I was referring to the two emails from the poster that she DID post and was drawing a possible conclusion from the emails from Vrane that EG did post.
The poster did allude to at least one other email to Vrane that she just "summarized". If that email was worded as the other two were, then it too was combative.
The owner of Vrane does seem to be abrupt and has no patience...but the poster of this thread also contributed to the problem. And since it was her email that triggered the exchange the tone in her origional email seems to have set the "tone" of the whole situation.
Both seem to share the blame in this...neither one acted "professionally".
posted on April 19, 2001 10:12:59 AM new
A "one man" service is run by a person who has feelings and will also have good days and bad days. This of course should never be reflected in customer service.
For many years I was a "one woman" operation. There were certain people that had a "history" of pushing my wrong buttons and they usually had a knack of doing so when I was having one of my "wimp" days and I gave in to them.
Now I am stronger and I have to be careful not to let them get to me when I am having a bad day. I try not to let it affect my customer service but I am human and it isn't always easy.
Perhaps in the discussion here there is a past history that reflects the exchange that is now going on. And then again, maybe not.
posted on April 19, 2001 10:13:11 AM new
Computerboy
Feel free to write another note if you wish to be educated on how to write a polite and constructive message to assit someone in addressing a problem.
Perhaps your skills would be better served on the person at Vrane?
How many of you can honestly say that you would write this kind of crap to a paying customer of yours?
You should really do your homework before you start yelling at me and making false accusations.
[b]You are obviously obvilious to eBay daylight saving bug. They posted about that
problem around day light saving time changes. Everyone in eBay commununity except YOU know about this bug.[/b]
Do not email me again
You should get into the habit of reading eBay announcement board.
I find you a very rude person.
Again I ask you to not to email me again.
I don't give a rat's azz what EG said to him via email, if that's the best he can do for a paying customer when they get a bit pizzed with his services, then he should remove his email addy from his site.
posted on April 19, 2001 10:16:31 AM new
Even if EG were to write a combatitive letter to some place, if that place is professional in its consumer service department they would never resort to such retorts as we see VRANE doing.
It is customer services job to deal with an upset customer in a professional manner at all times. Afterall, it should be an understanding that a customer that is upset will be hostile at first. If you are good at your job, you'll be able to calm down almost anyone (some people just cannot be) and talk with them in a rational manner. You start off acknowledging that the other party is upset. You don't belittle them. Let them know you are interested in working out the problem with them. Realize that the other person is feeling insecure because there is a problem and keep your word about contact. If, for example, you tell your customer that you will e-mail them back within a certain amount of time, do it. Even if you don't have the answer, e-mail them and let them know you are still looking into the situation and that you will do all you can to resolve the problem.
I had a job in such a field and was so good at it that I was fired because customers would all prefer going to me and my coworkers were jealous of my popularity. Even after people knew I was fired, they would still come to me for months to talk about their problems. It made me feel very special to have had that kind of impression on someone. Everyone can become overwhelmed, and then you must make the decision to take a break and do something else rather than take it out on someone else.
We relist items ourselves. We don't and never plan to rely on an outside source to do it for us. I believe in the saying, "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself."
posted on April 19, 2001 10:22:25 AM new
This is why programmers don't work in the Customer Service department. There's a whooooooole different skill set involved.
posted on April 19, 2001 10:37:06 AM new
One of the advantages to working on-line is that there is no one in your face or on the other end of the phone that needs to be responded to right now.
How many of you (like myself) have come here first to vent prior to responding to your mail?
Remember RL:
The time you had a headache but you couldn't go home sick? You had to deal with clients?
That day when a client totally peeved you and before catching your breath another moron starts to whine at you and you had to listen?
Or when it was 3pm and you still hadn't eaten breakfast but you couldn't take a lunch break and still you had other peoples issues to deal with?
There is very little excuse for dealing with people in the manner vrane chose to communicate. If he was peeved, stressed, pre-occupied, tired, hungry, sick, cranky, or just not up to giving 100%, he didn't have to answer the e-mail when he did or how he did!!! That was a choice.
IMHO, a very poor choice.
Again, the customer is always right. How much aggravation did EG's e-mail save him, in the long run, by raising his awareness of the situation? If vrane is as efficient as many of you feel, he will put a "warning" on his site thus lessing his chance for future issues as well as earning him customer loyalty (which he apparently has a problem achieving on his own).
How's that for another view?
***I don't see him thanking EG for bringing it to his attention.***
Back to CUSTOMER SERVICE 101, I guess.
posted on April 19, 2001 11:29:07 AM new
thanks, reddeer .
Making customers happy is a lot easier in the cyberworld. I agree, he missed out on an opportunity to make this positive.
From what I gather of vrane and people's opinions, he seems to be right on target with his product, technology, and price (I only use the freebies ). Hopefully he will learn to treat his customers properly (or hire someone who can) before he misses out even more!
posted on April 19, 2001 11:37:32 AM new
I feel the need to point something else out. I only knew of vrane because of Execgirl's earlier posts singing it's praises......I am sure I am not the only customer she brought to vrane.........I love vrane and am greatful she pointed them out to me and I have to wonder how many will be so turned off by the issues raised in this post that they will look elsewhere for the services offered.
The other thing that comes to mind is this. Since the Vrane guy appears to have known that Execgirl is a common participant at AW community, then maybe this has nothing to do with business at all, maybe this is someone who has had their feelings hurt in an earlier post ~ i.e. had a round with Execgirl. This is what I was sure of in the beginning, but now with the other posts, I see that others have been treated badly too, so that caused me to loose some faith in my theory.
posted on April 19, 2001 11:42:18 AM new
You got that right rainybear!
I don't expect a programmer to have great CS skills -- and I don't expect CS reps to program!
I don't care if Vrane is a ray of sunshine to deal with or not -- as long as his services work. (Yes, I've had an e-mail exchange with him that was very blunt and he's no candidate to become a Walmart greeter.)
By the way, why are we allowed to trash someone who's not here to defend himself, while we're being told to be oh-so-sweet to each other?
A bit of a double standard at work here, isn't there?
posted on April 19, 2001 11:48:32 AM new
>>> maybe this has nothing to do with business at all <<<
IMHO
vrane would have to be a complete moron to jeopardize himself, his career, his business, his financial well being, and his future in such an unprofessional manner.
I don't believe he could be quite as foolish as that, nor do I think he has the time to "have his feelings hurt". He just needs a course in people skills.
posted on April 19, 2001 11:57:24 AM new
Hello Folks
I would like to thank the person who invited me to this thread.
I handle many customer emails everyday and I do my best to be polite all the time. I do get annoyed whenever I get the blame for eBay's problem. I don't terminate an account just because the user is rude. I don't terminate an account just because the user is wrong. I terminated her account because she is rude and wrong.
Wrong about how relisting errors were vrane's fault. Abacaxi explained it better than I ever could about this technical problem. Please refer to abacaxi's post if you really want to understand the details.
A woman earlier posted that when she listed her auctions recently they were not defaulted to 5 days. Obviously theproblem does not apply to any auctions un-affected by daylight saving bug.
As an aside Dakota1 posted a similar problem. In fact this relist auction defaulting to the "wrong" duration is the result if you end your auction earlier than its scheduled end time. It's a not a bug but actually how
eBay system works. I really don't have time to explain this in detail however. But this "feature" of eBay system is not the cause of her problem but daylight saving time bug is her problem.
Her first email's subject field was capitalized. I don't automatically assume someone is shouting just because the text is capitalized. But content of her emails with many exclamation marks convinced me that she was yelling. She conveniently "uncapitalized" some part of the body of her first email so as not to appear to be shouting.
I don't like to get yelled. Not in person. Not in email. But I responded her first shout and yell mail calmly and factually. I was ready to give her full credit for her perceived wrong relist. In fact I was convinced at that point that it was eBay's daylight saving bug and happy to credit her account even though it was not my fault.
When she responded with her list of auctions and I found out that they were originally 5 days auctions and I got very annoyed and hence my second email to tell her to do "homework".
Well she obviously did not like to be told to do "homework" She considers being told to do "homework" rude. I quote her post at April 18, 2001 05:55:44 PM on page 1 of this
thread and edited at Apr 18, 2001 05:58 PM
Edited to add: By the way, I did get rude with him, AFTER he was rude with me and told me to do my "homework".
Obviously she considered my emails to be polite up until I
asked to do her "homework" Because she think telling her
to do "homework" is rude I hereby I aplogize her for telling her to do "homework" In addition I also apologize her for any other rudeness I have shown her.
Subsequent emails prompted me
to terminate her account. I post below another shout and yell mail.
FOR YOUR INFORMATION - yes, I do see that they were 5-day auctions. HOWEVER - I never EVER ORIGINALLY listed ANY of my auctions as 5-day auctions so OBVIOUSLY, they were relists that were listed wrong THROUGH VRANE before I relisted them this time!!!!!
EVERY SINGLE ONE of my auctions is listed through auctionposter.com and ALL of my settings are ALWAYS set at 7 day auctions. I have ONLY relisted through VRANE - so AT ANY TIME if my auctions went from 7-day auctions to 5-day auctions, it was VRANE'S FAULT!!!!!!!!!
Obviously, I missed Vrane's errors in the past!!! Looks like Vrane lost me a lot more money than I thought!!
Maybe you should fix your program and do YOUR homework!
Again for technical details please refer to abacaxi's post.
By her own admission she considers this email to be rude.
I disagree. It's not just rude. It's very rude and uncivilized.
I requested her not to email me because I have every right not to be harassed by what seems to be an unstable and hysterical person who escalated
a normal conversation into screaming.
As to my customer service my web site does not become well known overnight. It took many months of dedicated customer service
to get to this stage as well as offering unique services like power relister.
If you think vrane.com gets to its current popularity with poor cusotmer service think again.
I consider this thread "just one neutral" in my feedback profile and
great oppotunity for free publicity. I do feel like I am "using" AW Sorry!
I also don't adjust the quality of my customer service based on the amount of money
the user spends. I have many more long term unpaid customers than paid customers.
I respond emails based on the seriousness of the problem and the attitude of the email.
Regards
vrane.com
[ edited by vrane on Apr 19, 2001 01:55 PM ]
edited to say I edited because moderator ask me to edit out the personal name. I used first name of the customer and I don't see how that identifies anyone in this country. Because I'm pressed for time and because I'm using a very limited text browser to do quick text editing I was forced to come up with the number which I associate with this customer. If the person does not like being addressed with a number tell me how and I will edit properly later in the evening.
[ edited by vrane on Apr 19, 2001 02:04 PM ]
[ edited by vrane on Apr 19, 2001 02:36 PM ]
posted on April 19, 2001 12:08:57 PM newZoomin: Just got back....... Nooo, you are not wicked, nor mean, nor nasty!! One reason you are a Good parent is because you do say NO. It's so easy to give into the children but it takes a good parent to stand ground!
I know how you feel .....but believe me, they will thank you when they get older!
You're doing a great job..I wish all parents would do that!!
Amy: You are correct..."it takes two to tango..so to speak...but let's not forget...2 wrongs don't make a right.
It's easy for you to write a nice email because you are not the one who was upset. I'm sure EG could write a nice email for you too, if the roles were reversed.
EG has helped many people on AW! (Sorry EG..if I am embarrassing you) She has taken the time to explain what they can do to better help the situation. She is courteous and polite. Yes, she will defend herself when some of you start to bash her. I feel bad for her and others when they are "under attack".
You and I may not agree with all that she says or does but that does not give anyone the right to bash her. I believe that EG is a good person..and I'm sure you are too..but please stop all the condemning! You have no idea how much you hurt people by your words.
I have emailed some people that have been hurt on AW and left here. I don't understand why people have to be so critical. NO one is perfect! We all have faults. Instead of putting others in their place, try putting yourself in their place once in a while.
Amy, as far as EG not admitting she has been wrong. I will differ with you. I have seen her admit that she was wrong...I have seen some of her posts where she has said she was sorry too. Sometimes when we only look for the negative in a person, that is all we will find.
Amy, I have never seen you give EG an ounce of credit for the good things she does on these boards. I have only seen you say negative things about her and to her. Do you think you could maybe show a little kindness to her? EG has tried many times to ignore your negative posts, and she has asked you...as did the moderators ...Yet you continue to try to belittle her every chance you get.
How about working on some of those skills you seem to know so much about? If you want someone else to change then, maybe you could be the first to change?
Something just to think about..."Doing an injury puts you below your enemy; revenging one makes you even with him; forgiving it sets you above him." How about it Amy?
I hope I have not offended anyone. I am not trying to be unkind here.
posted on April 19, 2001 12:16:14 PM new
mistake #1:
I do get annoyed whenever I get the blame for eBay's problem.
If you can't handle that, it's time for a career move. Ya gotta learn to kiss the hand that feeds you, not bite it.
mistake #2:
tell her to do "homework"
And your reaction to that would have been any different? If I ever felt the need to speak to a customer that way, I would turn off the lights and call it a day. Better off to leave the work for the next day than finish out the day foolishly.
mistake #3:
Coming here to defend your actions as acceptable business practices.
If you had an employee that handled your customer the way you did, they'd be filling out the unemployment forms right now.
You can not be in a service industry and forget that it was your responsibility to hose down the situation, not add fuel to the fire.
JMO.
posted on April 19, 2001 12:22:50 PM new
I've had problems with some services but I don't think I've ever started a thread titled.
BEWARE OF "BRAND X" SERVICES!
Sometimes maybe there is justification for such a title, but frequently I've seen a misunderstanding between a customer and service end up with a warning to everyone. There's something about this that just isn't right.
If I have a problem with a toaster I bought I go to the customer service desk and I complain. On the internet there seems to be a habit of a 'call to arms' against a company or service when a customer isn't satisfied.
Message boards are great, but they can be used in very vindictive manners at times I feel. As I said earlier, there's something about this that just isn't right.
posted on April 19, 2001 12:26:29 PM new
Vrane Services = good tools, poor communication...not everyone is a programmer and alert to every bug, should be aware that most users of his services are high volume and "errors" of whatever cause are bound to cause stress
EG = helpful posts (long ago clued me to Vrane in this forum!), tolerates "bashing" fairly well, may not react as well to stress as she might wish
So...it's a standoff - Vrane lost a customer which sung its praises, EG lost a tool, and lots of AW posters lost their objectivity. No winners in this scenario!
posted on April 19, 2001 12:48:18 PM new
I'm somehow able to see throught the smoke of this complicated situation.
There is only one person to blame and I'm not going to name names. I'm too busy, as I have to go to VRANE right now to use the premium relist feature I happily purchased a few days ago.
posted on April 19, 2001 12:51:32 PM new
Well, no matter what Vrane says to defend his business practices, I stand by what I said earlier and I agree with EG, no matter what a customer says, especially a paying customer (pretty rare in cyberworld these days), you cannot treat them the way he did.
I tried to find the e-mails I was sent after my run-in, and unfortunately I deleted them, I was so angry and upset. I will not use those services again, even though I was impressed with the offerings and was thinking of signing up - no way do I want to be a sitting duck for that kind of abuse.
I agree with all the others who have said EG is one of the most useful resources here on AW, I have laughed and laughed at some of her stories, and learned A LOT - thanks for that, and I am really sorry you have to deal with so much cr...
posted on April 19, 2001 12:52:48 PM new
Just when you step out for lunch...*G*
Heck, I thought Vrane was going to be some junenille foreigner who couldn't put two sentences together...
Seems like he has an excellent command of English and gets his points across clearly...
Great example of where the owner shouldn't be the CS rep...I have a number of business friends who would say the same thing...because they're the same way. That's why they hire salespeople....
That way the complainants aren't attacking the owner's vision and ideas....the salespeople don't have that investment under their belt...
I hope everyone has learned.... I know I'm going to stay a bit closer to the 'puter during lunch from now on...*G*
posted on April 19, 2001 12:54:04 PM new
Psalms139..EG has a great friend in you and I commend your coming to your friend's defense. It speaks well for your character
To your statement that it is easy for me to write a nice email since I was not the one upset...the way I wrote it is exactly as I would have written it IF I had been in EG's position. Remaining calm when you write an email is very easy BECAUSE you are NOT face to face! It is easy to scream at the computer screen FIRST before you write an email. It is easy to reread what you have written to make sure it doesn't offend in any way. Only AFTER you have made sure your email is calm, factual and nonoffensive.
This is something I think the gentleman from Vrane could also try to do in the future.
When any of us come to these boards and post of a problem we have, we have to expect some responders might criticize our actions. This does not make the criticizer "mean" (just as I don't see you as being "mean" to criticize me). If all we ever got was agreement with our actions then we are not being truthfully helped by those responding to us.
Nothing I said in this thread was "mean"...but it did represent my observations on the situation. My opinion It would be dishonest of me to lie and say the only person I saw in the wrong was the gentleman from Vrane. In my opinion BOTH persons involved did not consider the other person's feelings. Both acted in a hotheaded manner.
If we are to excuse EG for writing an inflamatory email to Vrane then we also have to excuse Vrane for writing an equally inflamatory email to EG. But EG didn't want us to excuse Vrane...she wanted to sway those reading her post to stop using Vrane. This thread was started to damage another person's business...Vrane's.
I'm sorry EG is hurt by my observations of the situations she presents here on AW. But they are my honest observations and I try very hard NOT to make them in an inflamatory way.
Thank you for your observations. I will study them and decide if there is anything in them that can point me to bettering my posts in the future.
posted on April 19, 2001 01:02:53 PM new
I have to wonder what the point of these kind of threads are.
While the provider seems to lack customer service skills and was unnecessarily antagonist, the customer was "contributorily negligent" (to use a legal phrase) in her handling of the transaction. A private matter that should have been resolved privately. (But I suppose one might derive satisfaction from choosing an "inflammatory" title to vent to the world).
posted on April 19, 2001 01:07:26 PM new
I agree that it's far easier to stay one step back, and be pleasant in email.
However, the owner of another auction site (a man very famous in the antiques world) and I had a HUGE fight in email a few months ago. We both positively dripped with the nastiest kind of sarcasm.
The next day...we both apologized. I was the wronged customer...he, the righteous owner of the business.
I was right, of course. I'll have to say, however, I never considered defaming his business, though he was extremely rude. I was also very rude...AND it didn't merit messing with the man's livlihood. That would take something truly egregious...not just lousy PR.
posted on April 19, 2001 01:08:36 PM new
Wow such drama!
Vrane.com, consider hiring a Customer Service Rep. to field these kind of customers.
Sorry EG, but girl, you are an aneurysm waiting to happen.
don't sweat the small stuff. It's all small stuff! (okay ... not all of it!)
Vrane.com doesn't have a buffer between himself and a customer base that wants it's butt kissed...(Americans will happily get screwed, but you gotta smile at 'em...go to Europe and you won't get the kissy kissy treatment.)
I have dealt with customers that make EG look like a walk in the park. Walk in the Park. And I am talking non-ebay! I am talking corporate customer service for pharmaceuticals, retail and insurance. Death threats, stalkers, vengance seekers. We are full of angry people in this country and they love to #*!@ at the little guy. They really should move up the ladder. CSR's are there to deflect, diffuse, dilute and dissemble corporate antaganists and keep people happy.
Clark Howard calls it "Customer No-Service" and he's not kidding.
Vrane.com, if you don't want to be yelled at, then you hopefully will consider my suggestion. I know you have a killer app and it's useful to a lot of people, but to be honest, I don't think alienating paying clients over slight ego issues are worth it. You can't take your ego to the bank.
A simple "pablum filled" email reminding customers of the problem would have kept the money rolling in.
Sure customers should do their homework. But if they did they wouldn't pay retail for anything, they wouldn't have huge credit card debt, they wouldn't be asking you the same stinking question over and over and over.
Use that kind of customer "ignorance" as a boon. Look like the good guy. What have you gained here? Several folks who don't like EG will side with you no matter what. All in all it's not that impressive to me.
Gosh, I sound cynical, well you have to be. Ebay customers are no different, except that sometimes they think they can bully you, lie to you and pull snakey s**t on you.
Anyhow.....
I wonder if
1) He'd had the mistake with a huge account he'd have been so cavalier about dumping a customer.
2) I wonder if anyone besides EG came to AW with this thread would she/he been bashed so much?
I make it a policy to learn as much as I can here, whether or not folks think I am a pill or I think they are a pill.
posted on April 19, 2001 01:16:31 PM new
Two very good questions Capriole. Would you like to place a wager?
*btw* if I were a pill, it would NOT be xanax!!
.
). Hopefully he will learn to treat his customers properly (or hire someone who can) before he misses out even more!