neeceebaby
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:01:27 PM new
Hi all,
I just received a notice that my auction for a Janis Joplin book was canceled by Twentieth Century Fox due to copyright violations.
Excuse me, maybe I'm ignorant, but why can't I sell a USED BOOK? Can they prevent me from selling a used biography of Janis Joplin?
I have the email address for Fox. Would it be worth it to contact them? Does a little seller have any power here? I had a bid on it and it had a couple of days left.
Any feedback, previous experience or victory stories appreciated!
Denise
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:10:57 PM new
Hi Denise,
Sorry to report that I think you're out of luck -- and so are the rest of us. Vero is the worst possible thing that could have happened to sellers. eBay should have stopped it dead in its tracks. Fought it tooth and nail. Instead they embraced it.
What will happen if this becomes the trend, where every manufacturer/publisher/whatever decides that they don't want people buying used items that they hold the copyright to. The idea, I guess, is to force people to go to a store and pay retail so that they can get a cut of the profit.
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neeceebaby
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:28:23 PM new
What will happen if I try to relist it? Like maybe a quickie three-day auction hoping to slip it by? Will Fox arrive at my doorstep and prevent me from watching any of their bad TV programming?
Will eBay be watching little ol' me to see if the FORBIDDEN (doesn't that just make you want it more?) Janis biography goes up again?
Or will I be kicked off if I do get reported again?
Sorry for all the questions, but I have never been a criminal before 
Denise who is humming Fiona Apple's "Criminal" right now as she searches for a nail file to hide in her underwear in case she goes to VeRO prison.
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:39:33 PM new
At least you still have your sense of humor. I'd be pissed off.
I had a look and indeed, your auction is invalidated. What I find interesting, though, is that there are 8 copies of the same book still for sale on half.com, which is an eBay company.
If eBay is VeROing this book at auction, shouldn't they be nuking the copies on half.com as well? I would imagine that the 20th century fox's objection applies to those copies too.
Or is this just selective enforcement? You may want to ask Safeharbor about that.
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:41:00 PM new
If you get caught trying to sell the book after being warned, you'd probably be suspended. 
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neeceebaby
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posted on April 21, 2001 06:53:18 PM new
Thanks for the advice Spaz!
How did you look up my ended auction? It has completely disappeared from my eBay page. Almost like it was a bad dream (kind of like Christina Aguilera's hair which I am looking at now on the Blockbuster Awards)
:-p)
OH Well, I guess I'll send this one off to the used book store. <sigh>
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amy
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posted on April 21, 2001 07:09:05 PM new
Write to ebay and tell them you want to file the form that says you have not violated any VERO's rights. Fox then has a short period of time to present ebay with a court order (which they will probably not do). If they fail to get that court order (federal I believe), ebay HAS to let you relist.
There is no way we can be stopped from selling used books...it violates no rights. The courts have given us the right to resell used merchandise.
Don't let them push you around.
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 07:28:31 PM new
There is no way we can be stopped from selling used books...it violates no rights. The courts have given us the right to resell used merchandise.
Hi Amy,
You're my hero today, I think. Can you elaborate on your statements above? I've never heard anything about our rights to selling used stuff. I didn't think we had any, in fact.
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loggia
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posted on April 21, 2001 07:43:34 PM new
Spazmodeus, do not let them tell you cannot sell a used book. That is insane. VeRO is insane. It is big corporation mamma's dream come true.
In the United States you can sell a used book. But in eBay land, they want to intimidate you into thinking otherwise.
They are WRONG. Excuse me for getting worked up, but I would write eBay and remind them of something called libraries, used bookstores and Half.com.
I hope you please invest the time to fight them and have this auction reinstated. I'd write to some reporters as well. eBay is turning into some kind of totalitarian multinational worst than Noam Chomsky could have dreamed up!
Whew! Thanks for letting me vent.
[ edited by loggia on Apr 21, 2001 07:45 PM ]
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amy
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posted on April 21, 2001 07:47:04 PM new
Spazmodeus....from what others have posted here at AW, there are rulings from the courts that state an owner of an item has the right to dispose of it has the owner sees fit.
From what was posted before these court rulings go back years and were made in regards to a VERO (don't think they were called that then) objecting to someone reselling their item.
I'm lousy at searching AW's database but maybe your better at it. The first time it was brought up was in regards to that dead singer's mother who was a VERO member (wish I could remember his name). The information has been repeated several times since then.
Actually, if you think about it, it only makes sense. I can hold a copyright or patent and others can't copy my item. But once I have sold the item, title passes to the new owner.
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 07:55:30 PM new
This whole VeRO thing just seems off when you think about it. I can't even understand why eBay offers the service, let alone encourages it.
It seems to me, theoretically at least, that if taken to the extreme, VeRO could put eBay out of business.
Do they apply it to things like automobiles? If Volkswagen contacts eBay and says, "We own the copyright to Volkswagens," does that mean no more VWs can be sold on eBay Motors? Then what if Chrysler does it? And Ford? Where does it end?
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magazine_guy
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posted on April 21, 2001 08:04:19 PM new
Large corporations that are VeRO members sometimes make overly broad VeRO complaints based on searching for a name, without checking each hit to determine whether the auction infringes or not.
You can sell used books that you purchased legally-- even if it's a book about someone who had a contract with Fox. We've discussed this in other threads.
Do as Amy suggests. (Don't bother contacting Fox- they likely won't reply). Contact eBay and tell them that your auction was NOT infringing, and that you wish to complete an appeal form. Unless Fox is willing to file suit against you within a short period of time, you win, and you're free to relist your item.
Call their bluff.
Steve
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richeddy
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posted on April 21, 2001 08:19:43 PM new
Until somebody sues and wins this kind of action will continue.
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mcjane
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posted on April 21, 2001 08:43:11 PM new
Can you tape something on Tv & sell it on ebay? The reason I asked is that someone taped one complete season of "The Sopranos"
on two vcr tapes & it sold on ebay for 61.00.
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sparkz
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posted on April 21, 2001 08:45:06 PM new
Amy...Do the names Jeff Buckley and Jeffdefender ring any VERO bells?
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
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spazmodeus
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posted on April 21, 2001 08:51:35 PM new
mcjane,
What you described is absolutely illegal.
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tomwiii
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:03:26 PM new
Since eBay is SO OFFENDED by folks selling USED BOOKS...
Why don't everybody just move ALL your Half-Assed.com books over to Amazon Marketplace?
I did and I make mucho more moola than I ever did at HA!
Don't boycott eBay...
BOYCOTT HALF-ASSED.COM!
Easy for everybody to do at once & I'm sure you'd be as happy as I am at Amazon Marketplace!
Gee, ya know if 50,000 left HA.COM on the same day, ya think eBay might notice & take the hint?
[ edited by tomwiii on Apr 21, 2001 09:04 PM ]
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mcjane
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:03:40 PM new
spaz email me & I will send you the auction # I could be wrong, but it sure looked to me like the seller taped it. Maybe you could let me know.
[email protected]
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loggia
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:04:59 PM new
This whole VeRO thing just seems off when you think about it. I can't even understand why eBay offers the service, let alone encourages it.
eBay is very big into kissing corporate tushy. They don't care very much anymore about individuals or their rights. I'm not sure where the profit motive is in that, but that's the way they keep heading.
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jacqueg
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:05:49 PM new
http://www.ladas.com/BULLETINS/1995/1195Bulletin/US_FirstsaleCollectMark.html
What to do if your auction is ended by ebay.
http://www.mindspring.com/~bookdealers/issues.html
This is taken from US Code : Title 17, Section 109 concerning the First Sale Doctrine.
The entire document can be seen by clicking the url directly below.
More links and info to come if necessary!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.loc.gov/copyright/fedreg/65fr35673.html
[Federal Register: June 5, 2000 (Volume 65, Number 108)]
[Notices]
[Page 35673-35675]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
LIBRARY OF CONGRESS
The United States Copyright Office
DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE
National Telecommunications and Information Administration
[Docket No. 000522150-0150-01]
RIN 0660-ZA13
Report to Congress Pursuant to Section 104 of the Digital Millennium Copyright Act
[b]Section 109 of the Copyright Act, 17 U.S.C. 109, permits the owner of a particular copy or phonorecord lawfully made under title 17 to sell or otherwise dispose of possession of that copy or phonorecord without the authority of the copyright owner, notwithstanding the copyright owner's exclusive right of distribution under 17 U.S.C. 106(3). Commonly referred to as the ``first sale doctrine,'' this provision permits such activities as the sale of used books. The first sale doctrine is subject to limitations that permit a copyright owner
to prevent the unauthorized commercial rental of computer programs and sound recordings.[/b]
[ edited by jacqueg on Apr 21, 2001 09:07 PM ]
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loggia
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:40:45 PM new
Wow! Thanks.
I think we should all start putting auctions up explaining people's First Sale Doctrine rights. Sample titles...
How to Not Let VeRO Suppress Your Rights
First Sale Doctrine: What eBay Won't Tell You
eBay Loves Big Brother: Know Your VeRO Rights
[ edited by loggia on Apr 21, 2001 10:22 PM ]
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upriver
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:47:09 PM new
neeceebaby:
What was the title of the book that was suppressed, please?
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upriver
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:47:09 PM new
neeceebaby:
What was the title of the book that was suppressed, please?
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stamper3
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posted on April 21, 2001 09:48:46 PM new
Thanks jacqueg! Very interesting reports. It's really to bad we are all going to have to go to law school to sell our widgets! 
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ultimato
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posted on April 22, 2001 05:12:42 AM new
Here's an interesting twist on all of the above. Curious what some of you make of it. I recently had an auction for a new CD pulled, also for copyright infringement. Ebay said it was a promotional item--I'm not sure it was but I'll take their word for it. Then I noticed several other people still selling the same thing. Of those, three of them are trying to get around VERO by wording their auctions so that the CD is not actually the item being offered for sale, but instead is being given away "free" with the purchase of something else. For example, one person's auction is for a "light bulb," which he says "may or not work." Along with this light bulb he's going to "throw in" the CD in question. Someone else is auctioning off a "CD of your choice" by the same artist and says he will also toss in "the latest release" by the artist for free. It seems to me that this must be equally infringing. If not, it seems these few sellers are onto something that might take off in a big way if this VERO thing keeps up.
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mballai
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posted on April 22, 2001 06:14:51 AM new
The title of your auction should have the word USED in it and this should be repeated in the text. I realize that this is a pain, but this often has to be done by sellers of software to keep Micro$oft off their backs.
What I don't understand is that even if this is a new retail item, why on earth would they have problem with it? The only tipoff might be that they found your starting price too low--this seems to tick off Micro$oft's minions.
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neeceebaby
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posted on April 22, 2001 09:09:12 AM new
jacqueg
Thanks! That was really informative! Unfortunately on eBay you are guilty until proven innocent. I think I will use another venue to sell the book. It's not like I'm expecting to get rich from one book, but it's the principle of the matter. If everything goes well, I might start spreading myself around a bit
Denise
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neeceebaby
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posted on April 22, 2001 09:11:48 AM new
upriver ~
It is a first edition biography called, "Pearl: The Obsessions and Passions of Janis Joplin," by Ellis Amburn.
There's another one listed on eBay already.
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sasoony
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posted on April 22, 2001 03:01:59 PM new
This is insanity. If you applied this type of reasoning (idiocy) to every item listed on eBay, the only remaining items would be those offered direct from the publisher or manufacturer (or craftsperson).
Assuming neeceebaby didn't print a copy of the book, what does this have to do with copyrights???
The eBay employee who removed this auction should try removing their head from their a$$.
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barbarake
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posted on April 22, 2001 06:09:21 PM new
It looks like I might be in the minority here but I think VERO is a decent program. And - Yes, I've gotten caught by it.
With VERO, a company (or copyright holder) signs up to be a member of the program. If they see something they feel is offending, they contact eBay who then cancels the auction. Ebay does not make a judgement call (remember, they're only a venue) as to whether the VERO company is correct, they automatically cancel the auctions. Ebay only does this for VERO members. Just because you had your auction closed and others for the identical item are still open does not mean that 'ebay is out to get you' or 'is being unfair' - it means that the VERO member did not notice/find the other auction and did not report it. This is not eBay's fault.
If an individual (not a VERO member) complains about an infringing auction, eBay does nothing. It has to be reported by a VERO member. This makes sense - otherwise some individuals might just try to get other auctions cancelled. Ebay doesn't want to be in the position of trying to determine if the reporting individual is correct. (Remember, they're just a venue.)
When I had some auctions cancelled, the VERO member must have just reported *all* my auctions - not just the offending ones. So they were all cancelled. But the VERO member was very nice - explained *why* they had problems - and also contacted eBay about the ones they shouldn't have cancelled. I corrected the bad auctions and have had no further problems. I did not take it personally and it wasn't a big deal.
I think there has to be some way of preventing the sale of illegally copied and/or bootleg material. It's against the law and I personally would like to see it stopped. If you had a legal software program to sell, wouldn't you be upset to see someone else selling an illegally copied version for much less than you can (because you got yours legally).
Yes, at times mistakes are made. And the mistake is usually by the VERO member. Don't get mad - it doesn't accomplish anything. Find out what you need to do to correct things and just do it. It's not the end of the world.
Oh yeah - in this case, I'm just it was just a mistake. Contact the VERO member and they should be willing to correct matters (by contacting eBay and saying everything is ok). If the VERO member is unhelpful or doesn't reply, file an appeal with eBay. It might take a few days but things will work out.
[ edited by barbarake on Apr 22, 2001 06:10 PM ]
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