posted on January 3, 2002 01:40:35 PM new
Could someone please point me to exactly where in eBay's and also in PayPal's TOS it is stated charging a extra fee to pay using CC is a no-no.
I am having a hard time with a seller that insists charging me an extra $ to use PayPal is perfectly acceptable.
Also I know it is against most if not all state laws. Where can I find that info as well?
posted on January 3, 2002 01:49:42 PM new
For Paypal, click on terms of use link at the very bottom of the page, and then it's item 1V - 4.
No Surcharges. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
Hope that helps,
B'
Angels 'n Stuff
[ edited by bestattic on Jan 3, 2002 01:51 PM ]
posted on January 3, 2002 02:29:18 PM new
Welcome sandvet. It's hard to find info when you really need it. I can find things much easier if I don't feel pressured.
B'
Angels 'n Stuff
[ edited by bestattic on Jan 3, 2002 02:30 PM ]
posted on January 3, 2002 03:39:41 PM new
at least the seller tells you upfront,instead of raising handling fee for all-both paypal,cc buyers and mo and check buyers.
may be the seller can offer free insurance up to 50 dollars if buyer pays with mo.
posted on January 3, 2002 04:11:58 PM new
"at least the seller tells you upfront"
Seller didn't mention a surcharge until the WBN after auction close.
This particular seasoned seller claims to have no knowledge of these rules. States they'll just have to stop accepting PayPal because they can't afford the fees.
I don't believe that for a minute. Besides, the hefty $2.00 handling fee they are charging, in addition to actual shipping, should be more than enough to cover the fees for this pathetic $20 transaction.
posted on January 3, 2002 07:26:39 PM new
First of all, the answers provided aren't entirely correct because they don't give the whole ruling.
Federal Law, was abolished in 1984 on this matter. The states with a law on this matter are CA, CO, CT, FL, KS, MA, NY, OK, TX, and ME. Florida rewrote their law to change the wording from surcharge to convenience fee. Sellers can instate a convenience fee in Florida.
The other state's (listed above) laws are while you can't charge them more (no surcharge allowed) you can give a discount for less if using cash, or checks. Example, sellers can state the price is based on a cash discount, and credit card users must pay the regular price. This must be disclosed conspicuously.
This ebay seller may be in violation only because he did not disclose that the cash customers are receiving the discount rate, and credit card users are paying the actual rate.
Please post this sellers exact wording so we we can make the correct determination concerning this seller. You only stated the seller is charging extra, which by those words alone, the seller is entitled to do so.
posted on January 3, 2002 07:28:43 PM new
stopwhining brought up the other point, sellers can charge every customer the same credit card fee even if they use cash.
posted on January 3, 2002 07:32:37 PM new
profit is so miniscule these days,every penny counts.
i would say handling fee is 2.00,but if you pay by check or money order,we will pay for insurance up to 50 dollars.
which should give some buyers incentive to send check or money order.
posted on January 4, 2002 06:12:07 AM new
I like that idea of free insurance for payments by check, money order and cash.
(Up to 50.00) I'm going to start using it the next time I post.
Since I generally now self insure up to $100.00 using standard rates to help cover the fees this would just be another way to encourage cash, checks etc.
posted on January 4, 2002 09:48:57 AM new
It really doesn't matter if it is against the seller's state law or not. It is against both eBay's and PayPal's TOS.
These are the seller's exact words. Please add $1 to your total to cover PayPal fees. Add an additional $2 if you would like insurance or delivery confirmation.
This is in addition to the $5.50 charged for shipping and handling. The item weighs about 3 ounces and could be shipped in a Priority box for $3.50 or wrapped in brown paper and sent First Class for $1.26. I'm betting on First Class since Priority wasn't specifically stated.
The fact of the matter is, even if they shipped Priority, after Listing, FVF, and PayPal fees, they still make a profit off of the $5.50 shipping & handling.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 4, 2002 09:50 AM ]
posted on January 4, 2002 09:57:57 AM new
"It really doesn't matter if it is against the seller's state law or not. It is against both eBay's and PayPal's TOS."
posted on January 4, 2002 11:27:04 AM new
"It really doesn't matter if it is against the seller's state law or not. It is against both eBay's and PayPal's TOS."
Ebay and Paypal have the same wording as some state's law. Ebay and Paypal (just like the states) don't have a provision not to allow a seller to offer a discount for cash customers and forcing cc customers to pay the regular price. Sellers have a loophole to charge paypal or cc customers more than a cash customer as long as they disclose the discount to cash customers.
"These are the seller's exact words. Please add $1 to your total to cover PayPal fees."
Seller did not disclose that this is the regular price and not a surcharge, so he is in violation of ebay's, paypal's and California law.
He should have worderd it as such: "Please add $1 to your the cash discount total to cover Paypal fees."
Two words would have saved him from any legal or TOS violations. Note: A surcharge is beyond the regular price- NOT beyond a cash discount price.
posted on January 4, 2002 11:33:57 AM new
I had to reread the TOS for ebay and Paypal, and they do not stipulate that a seller must disclose the cash discount for cash customers. However, the seller did violate a state law for not disclosing it.
The only case ebay and paypal can make is that the seller violated a state law and thus must inrender the sellers service.
Question: why report a seller for charging the fees that you would have paid anyway whether he had the wording right or wrong? The law was made to get consumers off the lawmakers back, not to prevent sellers from charging the fee. Federal law was abolished on this matter should tell you this is really a non-issue. If the law was concerned they would have made a provision for no discount (as a matter of fact the previous federal law did state that).
Pay your fee like every one else and quit whining.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Jan 4, 2002 12:18 PM ]
posted on January 4, 2002 12:18:20 PM new
lovepotions, I would say that this seller is low to medium low volume but not a newbie by any means. According to their feedback, they have been selling for almost two years.
quickdraw29, PayPal's TOS states, "You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment."
So they did clearly violate PayPal's TOS and perhaps eBay's too. That would really depend on which Support Rep handles the case and their perception of the offense. (We all know how high that ball bounces!)
eBay's Listing Policy does, in fact, state "An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments."
As I read it, they clearly violated both PayPal and eBay's TOS by asking me to pay the fee imposed on them for accepting my payment through PayPal.
posted on January 4, 2002 02:10:31 PM new
sandvet, you can't prove by the sellers wording it is a surcharge. It could easily be that he is just charging the regular rate, and offering a discount to cash customers.
The seller could claim that he offers the discount rate to cash customers, and nothing Paypal nor ebay could do about it on that basis alone.
Ebay's TOS: "An eBay seller may not charge a fee, often called a "credit card surcharge," when accepting credit card payments."
The seller never called the $1.00 a fee, he said the "$1.00 covers paypal fees". Very different!
posted on January 4, 2002 03:09:34 PM new
Why don't you teach this seller a lesson. Go wait in line at the post office, buy a money order for only 80¢, slap a stamp on it and snail mail it. Then the joke will be on him.
dendude
posted on January 4, 2002 03:35:07 PM new
Actually, I snail mailed my payment yesterday in the form of a personal check. Total surcharge $0.00. Yes, I do get my checks printed free. No, I don't pay any bank service charges. Oh, the perks of government service. LOL!
Notice, seller A is charging a fee; Seller B is charging the regular cost; Seller C is giving a discount.
Your argument is you feel you should receive a discount like a cash customer even though you use paypal! Sorry, the TOS of paypal and ebay does not grant paypal users a discount.
Review Question: is Seller B charging more than the actual total of $5 despite covering paypal fees or the same? The answer is the same. That does not constitute a surcharge.
posted on January 4, 2002 04:49:19 PM new
Thank you, quickdraw29!
It seems you have proven my point. My seller is Seller A in your example. Regular cost was specifically advertised in the auction description as $5.50. I was later asked in the WBN to pay $6.50 if paying by PayPal.
I didn't ask for or expect "a discount". All I did was refuse to pay the $1 surcharge.
I have forwarded the seller's original email to support at both PayPal and eBay. I have asked for a definitive answer on whether this is against their TOS or not. I'll post the replies as soon as they are available.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 4, 2002 04:51 PM ]
posted on January 4, 2002 05:15:03 PM new
Well, I received a canned reply from PayPal.
In an effort to assist you as quickly and efficiently as possible, please direct all customer service inquires through our website. Click on the hyperlink below to go to the PayPal website. After entering your username and password, you can submit your inquiry via our Customer Service Contact form. If you indicate the type of question you have with as much detail as you can, we will be able to provide you with the best customer service possible.
At the PayPal website, I found I was limited to 700 characters. Hopefully, I'll get a response to forward the email.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 4, 2002 05:16 PM ]
Sellers are not allowed to pass along cc fees to buyers. A seller (from my understanding) can charge a surcharge for all payment methods, but they can't single out one payment method. They can also offer a discount for one method.... I think quickdraw has a pretty accurate explanation for it...
The laws of many states prohibit surcharges on credit card transactions.
posted on January 4, 2002 06:27:27 PM new
Actually your seller was (B). Sorry for the confusion. The amount stated in the auction could have been the discount price.
I can tell your POV is prejudiced and you won't consider other sides so I'll drop the matter. Just thought you might want to learn something new.
