posted on January 4, 2002 08:17:02 PM new
I am strictly a seller, and have been on eBay for 6 years. I agree with the advice to turn the seller in to both eBay and PayPal.
My personal feeling is, if a seller can't afford to pay the PayPal fee, then they shouldn't use PayPal, AND if the PayPal fee makes that much difference in their profit, then they need to get a 9 to 5 job, and stop selling on line, as their profit ratio is much too low.
I realize that sounds harsh, but that is business reality.
Regarding this particular seller in question, the $2.00 handling is certainly enough to cover the PayPal fee and then some.
I have been seeing more and more shipping and handling padding on eBay and it is disgusting. Unfortunately, buyers keep paying, and that keeps the greedy seller doing it over and over.
posted on January 4, 2002 08:40:16 PM new
Quickdraw, you're really stretching things in this debate. Sandvet is correct that this seller is a "Case A" case, not a "Case B" case. You'd be hard pressed to prove the opposite to Ebay, Paypal, a credit card company, or in a court of law. Since both Ebay and Paypal have been notified, I'm willing to bet good money that both will find this seller in violation of each of their rules.
There's been no evidence from anything that Sandvet has posted that there was a discount for cash. It wasn't mentioned in the TOS, and he already sent payment via a check with no mention of a discount. I'm sure if this seller had offered him a cash discount for sending a check, Sandvet would have mentioned it (and I'm sure he'll be glad to state it for the record just to be clear to everybody). So since Sandvet paid with cash, and there was no discount, then this seller clearly offeres no cash discount. Without any evidence that this seller was offering a cash discount, that clearly makes the $1 extra a surcharge, and a violation of both Ebay's and Paypal's rules.
posted on January 5, 2002 08:06:38 AM new
Here is the reply from PayPal concerning this matter.
Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal has amended its Terms of Use so that, effective March 31, 2001, sellers may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. This restriction does not prevent sellers from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher then the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods). Thank you for bringing this incident to our attention. Please be assured that if we do confirm that the user is committing a scam or fraudulent acts, we will take appropriate actions. Sellers who are using PayPal may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal.
I am forwarding a copy of the sellers email today.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 5, 2002 08:32 AM ]
posted on January 5, 2002 08:17:44 AM new
No, a discount or discounted S & H to pay by cash was never mentioned by this seller. It was presented as a fee to use PayPal.
In quickdraw29's defense, his argument is that the S & H of $5.50 quoted in the description may have actually been the discounted S & H price.
posted on January 5, 2002 11:03:36 AM new
Sandvet, I had considered that this hypothetical "unannounced" discount price was hidden in the handling fee since a discount of the sale price itself would have been obvious to you. If the seller's actual handling fee is $6.50 and he discounts $1 for cash payments but charges it for those using Paypal, that creates another violation of Paypal's TOS:
"This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge."
By charging that $1, he is acknowledging that part of the handling fee is being designated to cover Paypal fees. We all know that a lot of sellers effectively cover their Paypal and other payment services fees by hiding them in a nebulous handling fee. It's a classic "don't ask, don't tell" policy. Your seller's sin was to "tell, " imaginary discounts not withstanding.
posted on January 5, 2002 11:42:50 AM new
I'm not stretching anything, if you reread what I wrote, I sided with the buyer..."Seller did not disclose that this is the regular price and not a surcharge, so he is in violation of ebay's, paypal's and California law."
Problem is, he is not in violation of Paypal nor ebay's TOS in regards to surcharges. Reread my posts so I don't have to repeat myself. Ebay nor Paypal lawyers would touch this case since there is no proof either way whether seller charged a surcharge or discount.
As for the seller going back to a 9 to 5 job because his margings aren't good enough to cover paypal fees, this has nothing to do with margins. Sellers have every right to cover their expenses and overhead. Buyers can always find a job that pays more so they can afford the paypal fees, if that really is your argument. Grocery stores don't accept credit cards because their margin is 1%, should the grocery stores close and let consumers farm for themselves?
posted on January 5, 2002 12:02:43 PM new
holdenrex, Are you saying that one approach is blantant the other is a little more clever but it is what it is? I never thought of it quite that way before, but I suppose you are absolutely right.
There's nothing clever going on here though. This seller was definitely blatant by stating, "Please add $1 to your total to cover PayPal fees."
Okay quickdraw29, The seller may not be in violation for charging a surcharge but he is in violation for charging a fee (which technically is a surcharge) because you can't charge a fee to use PayPal.
posted on January 5, 2002 12:06:30 PM new
"This restriction does not prevent sellers from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher then the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods)."
Again, another worthless TOS. A seller can't have a surcharge but the seller is allowed to disguise a surcharge in the form of a regular price for all forms of payment. The guy that wrote that must have an MBA.
The TOS is vague, does that mean a seller can charge an additional handling fee for payal if they also charge an additional fee for accepting gold? It doesn't say 'All" forms of payment!
So here's a good email EOA message. "Please add $1 for paypal and gold."
posted on January 5, 2002 12:11:36 PM new
"Does that mean a seller can charge an additional handling fee for PayPal if they also charge an additional fee for accepting gold?"
Only if PayPal and gold are the only two forms of payment the seller accepts.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 5, 2002 12:13 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2002 12:43:46 PM new
I obviously need some pointers on communicating with PayPal.
This is my original message using their web site form.
A seller on eBay is trying to charge me a fee to pay using PayPal. They have stated by email, "Please add $1 to your total to cover PayPal fees to the seller." Isn't this against PayPal's Terms of Use Section IV, 4. where it states, "You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment"? I would like a definitive answer as to whether this is against your Terms of Use or not. I would also like to make a formal complaint against this seller. Please let me know how I can do this. I tried to include their email here but can't because of the 700 character limit.
Their first reply.
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I apologize for any inconvenience caused. PayPal offers our members access to the world's leading online payment service. As our network of members has grown, an increasing number of sellers of goods and services are accepting payments through PayPal.
Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal has amended its Terms of Use so that, effective March 31, 2001, sellers may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. This restriction does not prevent sellers from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher then the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
Thank you for bringing this incident to our attention. Please be assured that if we do confirm that the user is committing a scam or fraudulent acts, we will take appropriate actions. Sellers who are using PayPal may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. If you need further assistance on the issue, you can reach PayPal Customer Service by telephone at 1-402-935-7733. Our hours are 6 a.m. through midnight, CST, Monday - Friday.
We appreciate the time you've taken to write us with your comments about our service.
PayPal continuously strives to provide you with the highest quality website features and navigation system. We carefully consider every feedback email we receive and appreciate your suggestions.
Thank you very much for your feedback, and we hope that you continue to enjoy using PayPal!
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Mark
PayPal Customer Service
My response.
This seller's PayPal id is XXXXX. Below you will find a copy of the original email with headers included. According to your rules, is this a violation?
{seller's email here}
Their second reply.
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused you. PayPal has its Terms of Use and it cannot be modified for an individual. PayPal offers our members access to the world's leading online payment service. As our network of members has grown, an increasing number of sellers of goods and services are accepting payments through PayPal.
Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover, and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal has amended its Terms of Use so that, effective March 31, 2001, sellers may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. This restriction does not prevent sellers from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher then the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Lester
PayPal Customer Service
My response.
Oh, for goodness sake! Am I going to get the same cut & paste form answer to every single email??
The question is, is this a violation or not?
I believe it is a violation and I am trying to report the seller for charging a fee to use PayPal. I don't think I am actually doing anything but getting the run around.
Have I effectively reported this violation?
Am I even corresponding with a human being here or is this just a form responding computer??
Their third reply.
Thank you for contacting PayPal.
I sincerely apologize for any inconvenience this has caused you. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge" ). In order to comply with these laws and regulations, PayPal has amended its Terms of Use so that, effective March 31, customers may not charge a fee for accepting PayPal. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Samual
PayPal Customer Service
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 5, 2002 12:46 PM ]
posted on January 5, 2002 06:39:56 PM new
Well, I have given up with PayPal. That is probably what they were hoping for anyway. I have a vision of a room full of chimps sitting around laughing and blowing raspberries at my emails. I received that same reply a few more times and was also directed to the Merchandise Dispute Form twice.
Here is the reply I just received from eBay.
Thank you for submitting this information to eBay.
Upon review of the information that you have provided, I have determined that the listing violated eBay policy. Although the listing has already ended on its own, I have alerted the member to the violation. In reference to your question, it is against our policy to charge extra fees for using a credit card.
Sandvet
[ edited by sandvet on Jan 5, 2002 06:41 PM ]
posted on January 7, 2002 10:44:45 AM new
SOCIALISM 1 DEMOCRACY 0
That's so pathetic that Paypal, ebay and various states say it is unethical sellers can't add $1 for credit cards BUT IT IS ethical to impose a fee on non credit card users. It almost makes me ashamed to be an American until I realize it is not all Americans that support such hypocracy, it is only the outspoken few. Hey this is war against Socialism!!!!
The pathetic few who cry out because they have to pay $1, this war against you too!
