I just wanted to remind users that they can't charge a surcharge for payments.
No Surcharges. Under Visa, MasterCard, Discover and American Express regulations and the laws of several states, including California, merchants may not charge a fee to the buyer for accepting credit card payments (often called a "surcharge". You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods).
posted on March 4, 2002 06:29:19 PM new
But you may charge everyone a surcharge, and you may offer discounts for cash payers. In other words, the law is totaly worthless.
[ edited by quickdraw29 on Mar 4, 2002 06:30 PM ]
Hi, for the first time ever (I believe), I just had a seller post a 2.2% surcharge on the auction that I won if I wanted to use Paypal due to Paypal fees. What do I need to do to report him, and do you tell him that I was the one who reported him? I can send a copy of the email with full headers if necessary. Thanks.
posted on March 4, 2002 10:21:34 PM new
kshoops, what's the problem, you don't feel the seller is entitled to recoup the fees that benefit you because of the convenience of using a credit card?
CHEAP!
posted on March 4, 2002 10:35:22 PM new
Hello quickdraw29,
I am sure you know the rules of Paypal (or any other credit card for that matter). It is against the rules to force the customer to pay the fees brought about by the acceptance of the credit card. I accept Paypal also, and if I have to accept the fees that come with it, then so does everyone else.
Can you please tell me what business this is of yours, and why the need to jump on my case for a well-known rule? I'm not quite sure I understand why you're wasting your time posting here.
posted on March 5, 2002 12:37:51 AM new
Just have to respond....
I enjoy using paypal as a buyer and also accept it as a
seller because many enjoy the convenience it provides.
However, many sellers do not accept it for a number of reasons, including the fees that are associated with it.
Invariably, some buyers will complain to those sellers who do not accept paypal. Why not? etc....
kshoops----
Did the seller list Paypal as an accepted method of payment in his TOS when you bid? If he did, and then wants to charge a fee after the auction I agree that that
is wrong.
However, if he did not put it in his TOS and only put it in his EOA e-mail I am willing to cut him some slack because if it was not listed in his TOS it shouldn't be assumed that he accepts it.
It is possible that he doesn't list Paypal in his TOS because he doesn't want to pay the fees (which can be costly).
He may have only mentioned Paypal because too many buyers had been asking if he accepted it after the auction was over. Or, he may have been offering it as a convenience to those who absolutely had to use it.
It's possible that he doesn't know that asking for a surcharge for Paypal payments is wrong.
Personally, I would not be so quick to turn him in.
I would e-mail him politely and remind him that it is against Paypal's rules to charge a surcharge.
However, it's possible that he would write back and
basically say:
"I was not aware of that law. I apologize. However, I will no longer be accepting Paypal as a form of payment because of the fees."
Of course, that means that you will have to send another
form of payment.
Bottom line, if Paypal was in his TOS as an accepted form of payment, you have a legitimate gripe IMO.
However, if it was only listed in his EOA e-mail, I would
not be so hasty to complain. It is possible that he put it in his EOA e-mail so that he could avoid answering countless e-mails from those people who felt they had to use Paypal even when it was not in the TOS
Persoanlly, I like the idea (I may even use it) of offering a cash discount (say $0.75) if buyers send a check or MO instead.
If a buyer sends a MO they have to pay for the cost of a stamp, envelope, and usually the MO. It also takes longer to prepare and mail a letter. A $0.75 discount would only serve to compensate them for the added expense.
A discount for cash is perfectly legal.
If I was that particular seller, I wouldn't mention a 2.2% surcharge for using Paypal, I would estimate what the Paypal fees would be for that auction, say $1.00 and offer that amount as a cash discount for buyers who sent checks or MOs. Buyers who felt they had to use paypal would have no grounds to complain.
posted on March 5, 2002 05:50:50 AM new
So is paydirect breaking the law when they allow the option of buyer/seller pays the fees? It would seem that paydirect has a different interpretation.
dendude
posted on March 5, 2002 05:56:49 AM new
if i were the seller and u refused to pay the paypal surcharge i would just ask you to send a money order, PS i never have and never will charge a surcharge for online payments
posted on March 5, 2002 07:41:44 AM new
You made it my business when you posted your question on a discussion board. I'm more interested in educating sellers of alternative methods rather then educate thick headed buyers like you.
It is not against the rules to force a buyer to pay extra for using paypal or any credit card. Did you read my first post? It's all a matter of word play. Your seller did it the wrong way. The correct way would have been for him to say, "Cash customers receive a 2.2% discount", and the seller could have jacked up his handling (which is allowed by Paypal) to make up the difference. He could have also charged every buyer the extra 2.2%, which is what I do.
posted on March 5, 2002 09:16:51 AM new
I wonder why we haven't seen many auctions with terms like "Pay with a check or money order, deduct $1 off the shipping price" - I have been considering this, esp. if paypal gets any more expensive. Since most of my international transactions are paid with paypal these days, I am definitely going to factor that into all international transactions.
posted on March 5, 2002 09:30:41 AM new
quickdraw29,
Your motto must be "Ready, fire, aim."
Paypal also benefits the seller (a point often ignored here). Payment is quick, guaranteed, no trips to the bank, no bounced checks, easier international sales.
posted on March 5, 2002 10:53:08 AM new
What an insane assumption. Anyone who reads my posts know everything I do is well planned.
A buyer who mails a money or check has to pay for an envelope, paper, ink, postage stamp, price of money order/check, plus gas, wear and tear on car. They also have to wait longer for their payment to get to the seller, and may wait for check to clear.
Lets face it, it's more of a conveninece for the buyer. I have people sending checks and money orders all the time, so adding one more to the trip to the bank won't inconvenience me. Actually I can't pay my bills with paypal so it is a problem. I would rather have money orders.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:00:42 AM new
also paypal can lock your funds, freeze your account whenever they feel like it you have no control whatsoever over your money.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:08:46 AM new
Actually you can pay your bills with paypal you just choose not to. that's your choice and just fine but it is not that you can't.You seem awful quick to jump on everyone else in your posts and use personal attacks but you stating falsehoods as fact should be just fine. A post that starts as a simple reminder once again turns to attacks. Seems that is about all these boards are becoming these days. Ah yes I can feel the tone of the repsonse already. Fire away !
posted on March 5, 2002 11:25:31 AM new
As a Buyer:
I love Paypal. It is so convenient. If the seller has the postage listed, I often have my Paypal payment sent before I even get the first message from the seller.
As a Seller:
I don't like the fees. But, that is because I am greedy.
I think that in the long run it means more money for me.
I would rather have a deep-pockets executive bid up my items than a miser (like me) win because they are more willing to jump through hoops than the busy executive who prefers CC (and Paypal) transactions.
By the way, I have been hearing lots of new Ebay advertising on the radio the last few weeks. It must be working. I am getting a lot of new bidders with 0 feedback. All have paid, though. In addition, I am having to wait for checks and money orders, instead of getting most payments by Paypal and Billpoint. Overall, it is nice, as the bidding price has gone up.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:26:08 AM new
Some bills you can pay with paypal, mainly one's that already accept automatic credit card billing. Many of my bills I can't because they told me I can't use a card, not because I choose not to.
I'm quick to jump on others because I am a quick thinker with quick wit. Actually, it's the same old thread topics using the same old responses.
What are the falsehoods I make? I do a lot of research so it is unlikely I promote falsehoods.
The post that started as a reminder was inaccurate because it left out important facts. Attacking misconceptions is fairgame. Attacking people because they stubbornly hold onto the misconceptions is fairgame.
While you are negative and see these threads as negative that is your problem. There are people on the sidelines that can learn issues and facts by the back and forth tit tats. I find that very positive.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:38:14 AM new
I only find paypal to be a convenience to the buyers.......I can wait on my money orders, not a problem.....I think since it is a buyers convenience, that the buyers should have to pay the fee's......even though I know sellers can't openly pass these fee's on. I guess that's why I never upgraded my account and I still get plenty of paypal payments so it works well for me this way and I don't have any plans to upgrade....
posted on March 5, 2002 11:41:17 AM new
Boy was that ever predictable !! Yea technerd I agree with you. I use my debit card for all my postal expenses and business expenses and get enough money back to cover most of what paypal charges so it is well worth it in my book. I like you prefer people to use paypal, I have had a couple issues with them but they have always worked them out with me in fair and quick manner.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:47:28 AM new
Just another 2 cents to chip in on here....I guess if sellers want to add a handling fee for using Paypal, that is fine, BUT: then I want to know what the shipping/handling charge is going to be BEFORE I bid on your item and bid accordingly. I don't want to find out you are going to explicitly charge me an extra Paypal surcharge that I never knew about before bidding. I want to know what ALL fees are going to be before I bid, not to mention the fact that it IS against Paypal rules (as Damon explicitly outlined above, Quickdraw29) to add a specific Paypal surcharge to the total amount after the fact.
posted on March 5, 2002 11:57:24 AM new
"...not to mention the fact that it IS against Paypal rules (as Damon explicitly outlined above, Quickdraw29) to add a specific Paypal surcharge to the total amount after the fact."
These are the stubbrn individuals I referred about. They deserve to be attacked for being a moron.
Paypaldamon in another thread on this topic agreed with me that there are loopholes just as I mentioned.
Paypal rules state a seller can't add a surcharge, but if you add an extra fee for all buyers whether they send cash or credit, then it is not considered a surcharge, it is considered your normal fee. Welcome to education 101, please don't sleep during class or I will fail you.
posted on March 5, 2002 12:07:32 PM new
Quickdraw29,
How can you in the course of the same sentence, AGREE with me, and still call me a moron??? I guess that makes us 2 peas in a pod! That's hilarious, and you simply repeated what I said in my last post. Sellers are not to SPECIFICALLY mention a Paypal surcharge. If they want to add the Paypal fee into their "handling" fee, then more power to them. Hopefully, that "handling" fee is listed as part of the item description. Am I missing something? Not sure where your arrogance in rehashing the exact same thing I just said came from, but I needed a good laugh, professor.
posted on March 5, 2002 12:12:53 PM new
yea I am rolling also (almost spewed coffe all over my comp I laughed so hard) He repeated almost exactly what you said. Oh well its all good and now I have had my laugh for the day. I don't have a problem with people building whatever they like into there shipping. Just state the shipping up front and if it isn't stated up from it is my responsibility to ask before I bid or I shouldn't have any room to complain.
posted on March 5, 2002 12:14:43 PM new
paypal sucks anyway so who cares....wait until they freeze your account or a customer decides to charge you back even though they received the goods in a timely manner and are "acceptable".
then fees become irrelevant you just want your MONEY BACK.
posted on March 5, 2002 12:36:29 PM new
Yea better go back to maintaining a low profile if yer gonna spew forth such nonsense! THE BIG DIFF is that feeBay can NARU you for this infraction...that's the BIG DIFF!
"I know it was you, Fredo!" -- Michael Corleone
I just ADORE sig lines
posted on March 5, 2002 12:44:57 PM new
At the very least, ebay can pull all your auctions if you state a surcharge for Paypal (or any other credit card service). Of course, somebody has to notify them first, which is why your competition loves this rule.
posted on March 5, 2002 04:54:05 PM new
What I was referring to is the seller can charge you the surcharge just can not make it look like it is a surcharge. I told you is just about wordplay.
kshoop says, "I don't want to find out you are going to explicitly charge me an extra Paypal surcharge that I never knew about before bidding. I want to know what ALL fees are going to be before I bid, not to mention the fact that it IS against Paypal rules (as Damon explicitly outlined above, Quickdraw29) to add a specific Paypal surcharge to the total amount after the fact."
When I jack up my handling for every buyer, that is really a surcharge, but legally it is not, it is called my regular fee. Boy, I'm getting tired of teaching slow learners. I bet you don't ever bid, because how many sellers tell you about all their fees before you bid? It's a can of worms smart sellers avoid opening. They will just answer what their handling is or combine it in their shipping.
Most sellers are charging you the paypal fee, sorry to burst your bubble, and it is legal.
posted on March 6, 2002 07:24:09 AM new
I am lucky, since I design, produce, and sell my own products. My profit margins are 90-95% before Ebay, AW, Paypal, Billpoint fees, etc. So, I don't mind them. An extra 10% in fees still leaves me with a healthy profit margin.
However, I have a theoretical question. I guess it is the nerd in me.
Why is it Illegal to charge for Paypal payments? It is illegal to charge for credit card payments. Paypal is not a cc company. In fact, all my payments come from my balance or checking account.
When people pay for one of my auctions via Paypal, my name is not on the credit card invoice. So, I can not be guilty of any crime, if I charge a surcharge.
Now, it is wrong to charge a surcharge because that violates our TOS with Paypal and we must respect that.
In addition, with Paypal, we are paying for customer service. People with more money are busy. Busy people want convenience, i.e., Paypal. Paypal is very easy for buyers. Busy people with money bid higher.
I like money. Therefore, I like higher bids. So, I accept Paypal, as well as other payment schemes.
To paraphrase Jerry McGuire's friend, "Send me the money!"
. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as payment. This restriction does not prevent you from imposing a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge (in other words, the handling fee for transactions paid through PayPal may not be higher than the handling fee for transactions paid through other payment methods). 
!