posted on July 4, 2002 08:40:59 PM new
An old friend and his wife came to visit us in Feb...she was out of work and very curious about how I sold on Ebay (I am a powerseller). She spent the 4 days they were with us grilling me on how I did it; I gladly showed her my business technique and shared the services I use etc. Told her to find a product and then just get started...when they returned home she wrote me that she had decided not to sell on Ebay after all. WELL, today I accidently came across her ads while checking out my competition as I do regularly....she is selling the same types of product that I do...fabric, quilt squares, etc....which I don't mind...what I DO mind a LOT is that she has copied my ad copy word for word except for the first sentence in her ads describing the item. It is SO exact it is not a coincidence. I have spent a lot of time building my business and refining the wording of my ads and terms etc....now her ads look like mine and sound like mine. What should I do about it? I have an urge to email her and just say I don't mind you selling on Ebay.....I don't mind you selling in the same categories...I DO mind a LOT that you have plagarized my ad copy. What would you do? Is this against Ebay rules? HELP!!!
What you described is against eBay rules. I don't have the links, but eBay provides a form to complete in order to file a complaint.
The same thing has happened to me. I sell antique porcelain so one would think that would be difficult to emulate, but I was selling a specific dinner ware pattern a few years ago, piecing out a set at the time and another seller copied my description word-for-word when she realized she had the same pattern.
If the competing seller is a friend, my advice is to call her and talk with her, tell her that she cannot copy your text, and offer to send her the eBay links that describe the activity as being against eBay rules and policies. However, I think your problem goes deeper than copying your text. It appears that your "friend" stole your inventory sources also.
The lesson to be learned here is to not be so chatty about your business in the future. You built your eBay business; it is your skills, talents, energy and long hours that have given you your successes. Don't give all of that away.
posted on July 4, 2002 08:58:16 PM new
There may be hundreds of competing sellers in your niche market on eBay. Your friend is only one of them. Some people see no harm in borrowing from a friend and this may be the case. When you spent a lot of time showing your friend the ropes at eBay you opened the way for this to possibly happen. You can write your friend and casually bring up the topic of fabric squares selling and see what type of response(s) you get.
posted on July 4, 2002 08:59:43 PM new
depends on ho much you wanna keep her as a friend, after what she did probably not a lot
the logical aproach:
call her, dont get angry,
and explain to her that you are happy that she found eBay after all, and that you saw
her auctions, but you've noticed that she is copying your text.
which you can report her for:
Potentially Infringing
(copyright & trademark)
(under safe harbour / rules & safety)
then tell her to either start typing her own text (and ask her to change it asap)
or you will have to trade your friendship for work and you will not hesitate to report her to eBay
posted on July 4, 2002 09:41:18 PM new
Listen to bidsbids This sounds like very good advise to me.
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Quote from bidsbids post.
There may be hundreds of competing sellers in your niche market on eBay. Your friend is only one of them. Some people see no harm in borrowing from a friend and this may be the case. When you spent a lot of time showing your friend the ropes at eBay you opened the way for this to possibly happen. You can write your friend and casually bring up the topic of fabric squares selling and see what type of response(s) you get.
********************************************
GOD BLESS AMERICA
posted on July 4, 2002 10:28:27 PM new
I think I will start putting a copyright notice on my ads in the future...how do I make that little c in a circle though?? She is really not a personal friend....she is the wife of a high school classmate of ours, I have seen her twice total, so don't feel comfortable in calling her. Think I will handle it via email. What burns me is that when she wrote the thank you note for the weekend at our house, saying she wasn't doing Ebay, she was already trading on my experience. You are right in saying she is no friend. Now on the other hand, I have a friend who lives nearby who I have also helped get started...she sells fabrics but we have been very careful not to infringe on each other...she has developed her own style, inventory, and take on this niche market. With the other plagarizing one, I just feel used. I will look at the Safeharbor rules to see if something applies as I have a strong urge to turn her in.
posted on July 4, 2002 11:14:44 PM new
If you have a good thing going, keep your mouth shut about it. There are no "friends" when it comes to money or "love".
posted on July 5, 2002 12:42:39 AM newShe spent the 4 days they were with us grilling me on how I did it; I gladly showed her my business technique and shared the services I use etc. Told her to find a product and then just get started...when they returned home she wrote me that she had decided not to sell on Ebay after all.
I don't know the time period between her return home and your discovery of her eBaying but she obviously changed her mind.
I personally am the other way in regards to sharing auction templates. I am deeply flattered when friends use my templates that I give them when they start selling on eBay and use them as their own. There are 50 million registered eBay accounts and more than enough bidders to go around in my opinion.
Perhaps in your 4 days they were with us grilling me on how I did it; I gladly showed her my business technique you should have also educated her about the online unwritten ethics of stealing auction descriptions/images, etc ?
posted on July 5, 2002 01:26:58 AM new
I sell quilting items, too (another eBay-country) and was actually the first one to do so there. After a while I got some competition and guess what: every other auction looked like mine.
First I was furious. However - I did not want to start a war and over time each of them developed a certain style of their own.
The copy-right thingy will not do you any good. She can just delete that one sign. My guess is that she knows nothing about HTML. (probably why she copies yours)
Why don't you put "hidden" links to your own auctions into your texts? She might either not recognize them or not know how to delete all of it correctly. Which kind of screws up the whole text... And sours the milk for that particular baby...
posted on July 5, 2002 06:34:06 AM new
I refuse to flay myself for being generous and helping someone start their ebay business...after all I owe a couple of sellers bigtime who helped me start 3 years ago...but I did have the class and integrity not to purloin their material and go into direct competition with them. Don't know if all of you realize it, but it is totally against eBay rules to do this, to use someone's intellectual property, their ad wording, without permission....EVEN when a few words are changed. EBay spells this out pretty clearly. Two years ago I turned in a seller who was doing this; eBay sent a warning and stopped his auctions. I just sent this erstwhile friend an email...not hostile...asking her to stop using my copy in her ads. I decided that I wouldn't let a stranger do this to me, why on earth should I let someone I know and helped?! And...I refuse to let anyone blame the victim in this case!!
my ad listings have been plagiarized in the past, too, and I very firmly told the sellers to either amend or end their auctions. That ususally works. One guy kept doing it ~ but I reported him to eBay and it finally ended.
posted on July 5, 2002 09:31:09 AM new
If you put in the copyright symbol & have not registered your product, then it has no legal value. I don't know anything about Ebay's rules, but I do know that it is illegal to claim coyright without registering. I have been down this road several yrs. ago.
[ edited by sanmar on Jul 5, 2002 09:32 AM ]
posted on July 5, 2002 09:41:28 AM new
Good luck, with 6+ million auctions to monitor the few eBay personnel are stretch very thin. Lately they have had a lot of problems policing violators of their linking policy that other members have turned in to them for investigation. Things may have been better in the past but they are getting worse each day as far as customer service is concerned.
posted on July 5, 2002 09:47:47 AM new
Susiegirl: I agree with you 100%. Regardless of legalities, what your "friend" did was inexcusable. I'm glad you called her on it. "No good deed goes unpunished" are words to live by (LOL), but you still had to take action with this person. Bravo!
posted on July 5, 2002 09:53:15 AM new
REAMOND
Well said!
susiegirl
The first lesson is to say nothing! When it comes to money there is no such thing as a "friend".
They will stick it to you faster than any stranger ever will.
Take this as a hard learned lesson and never do it again.
This may seem harsh but that is the way of the world.
posted on July 5, 2002 10:10:56 AM new
Friends are friends. Business is business. A true friend would respect you and your business and not do this behind your back. Please let us know how she responds.
posted on July 5, 2002 10:30:03 AM new
Will do...if I don't hear from her and she puts up ANY more auctions with my text, I will then turn her in to eBay. I wouldn't take it from a stranger, why should I put up with it from someone I know!
posted on July 5, 2002 11:11:30 AM newIf you put in the copyright symbol & have not registered your product, then it has no legal value. I don't know anything about Ebay's rules, but I do know that it is illegal to claim coyright without registering. I have been down this road several yrs. ago.
This is not strictly true. Artists, for example, do not need to register a copyright on a painting for it to be copyrighted. It is automatically copyrighted upon completion. If litigation is involved, the painting needs to be registered within 3 months of discovery of the copyright infraction.
I think the issue that needs to be considered is whether or not descriptions can be copyrighted. We all know that photographs fall under the same category as art, and the copyright is automatic upon creation of the photo. My knowledge of the whole copyright thing is pretty much limited to artwork, so I don't know about the description thing.
I'm curious though, does it hurt your auction if someone is using your description? I understand the time involved in creating it initially - but don't we all look for short cuts to save time & money? Your "friend" certainly should have asked your permission, and IMO the fact that she didn't ask indicates that she knew what she was trying to get away with wasn't right.
posted on July 5, 2002 01:38:55 PM new
How about a different twist. Call her and let her know that you seen her auction listings. Let her know that she should have asked you first before copying them, but since she is doing it, ask her if you can copy some of her work as well. If she is primarily selling the same or simular items as you, maybe you can both save some time for each other. My brother does this with another seller in his field, and they have a great relationship and do pretty well for themselves.
posted on July 5, 2002 01:40:38 PM new
You do not need to "register" anything to claim and have a copyright on anything. As soon as you create something original with some exceptions and in a tangible form, it is copyrighted.
The only advantage to registering a copyright is that you can be reimbursed legal fees from the infringer if you pursue them. I believe you have 5 years from creation to register the copyright, but registration is not necessary to enforce or otherwise copyright. Registration can also make your case easier to win by providing public notice and ownership.
The biggest problem for the little guy is in enforcing the copyright.
"Plagarizing" is not illegal. It is an academic standard enforced by professional organizations such as teachers/faculty and publishers.
[ edited by REAMOND on Jul 5, 2002 01:50 PM ]
[ edited by REAMOND on Jul 5, 2002 01:52 PM ]
posted on July 5, 2002 05:05:59 PM new
"Plagarizing" is not illegal. It is an academic standard enforced by professional organizations such as teachers/faculty and publishers.
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plagiarize is to pass off as one's own the ideas or words of another (Webster's dictionary). Why wouldn't that be illegal? I know you can't copyright an idea, but you can copyright your words..such if you had written a book or music and someone copied you. Is it just a fineable offense? We had a local newsperson plagiarize a story..first he was fired, and then he was sued...I don't remember if he was arrested.
posted on July 5, 2002 05:39:41 PM new
Well I got an answer to the email I sent her today....she "had looked at so many auctions, she didn't realize what words she was using" and certainly didn't intend and won't do again etc. etc. The bottom line is that after she sent the email she listed 3 more auctions with the same old words of mine...does she think I am some kind of a sucker or what??...don't answer that! In any event, I just fired off a complaint to eBay Trust & Safety giving a couple of examples. When this happened to me re an ad title and copy 2 years ago, eBay stopped the guy cold....he stopped for 2 weeks, then did it all over again and sent me an abusive email to boot...they then stopped him a 2nd time and I haven't seen him since!
posted on July 5, 2002 08:07:18 PM new
Plagarizing is to use someone elses words or ideas without citation.
There is "Fair Use" allowed in copyright, and citation is not necessary.
Doing something "Illegal" imports a criminal penalty. There are "civil" wrongs for which you can be sued for monetary damages, but have no criminal penalties. There are also Illegal acts which carry both civil and criminal penalties.
Copyright infringement does carry criminal and civil penalties.
You can commit a copyright offense and not commit plagarism, all that is necessary is to cite the creator.
If I pirate and bootleg an artist's music, but state clearly that the music was created and/or performed by the artist, I have committed a copyright offense, but have not plagarized.
Plagarism is a "professional" wrong, which can effect employment etc.., but it can also be the basis of civil and criminal actions.
If you use an "idea" in your PhD thesis without citation, you get a "F" and the incident will appear on your academic transcripts.
Using someone elses work in or effecting a commercial interest may result in criminal actions, such as a charge for unfair competition, Trade/Servicemark infringement, or civil action such as false light.
posted on July 5, 2002 08:16:55 PM new
[/i]I don't know anything about Ebay's rules, but I do know that it is illegal to claim coyright without registering.[/i]
That is not correct at all. As soon as you list an ad it is automatically copyrighted, whether or not you say so in the ad or use the (c) symbol. This is what the new DCMA law is about.
As far as eBay is concerned, there is no need for litigation. eBay's rules expressly forbid copying item descriptions, in whole or part. You can complain via eBay Rules & Safety or register with the VeRO program. Either way, you can notify eBay and they WILL end the offending auctions.
You did the right thing. Since you can shut her auctions down at any time, give her one polite chance to stop it, then clobber her. From my experience, people who do this know exactly what they are doing and why. It's the same as stealing.
posted on July 5, 2002 08:37:11 PM new
The only problem with eBay's TOS is that all the other person has to do is claim that you copied their ad.
There have even been cases posted here on AW about someone copying an ad and then reporting the "actual" owner of the ad to VERO resulting in the originator of the ad having their auctions pulled.
eBay doesn't want to get involved with who owns what. The VERO program is a result of compling with the DMCA. All that is necessary with the DMCA/VERO program is for the "infringing" party to file a counter-notice, and then the VERO member has to commence legal action or eBay can allow the "offending" party to re-list without any liability to eBay. Being a member of VERO is not necessary, but it allows short cuts.
Anyone can claim infringement under the DMCA and get material pulled from the internet. All you need to do is send the proper information to the ISP - if the ISP doesn't pull the material, they may be liable for damages too. The counter-notice is just as easy to file. This whole notice/counter-notice game is just to relieve AOL,eBay and all the other ISPs of any vicarious liability.
posted on July 6, 2002 12:29:55 PM new
No we were NOT supposed to be friends, back to the top...this is the wife of an old friend...when we hosted her in our home it was only the 2nd time I saw her.
