posted on November 26, 2002 10:59:35 AM new
Where I live where is very heavy traffic congestion. To encourage carpooling to reduce that congestion the state set up carpool or diamond lanes only for cars with more than one person during commute hours. Many times, if you used the near-empty carpool lane you could save at least a half hour off your long commute. The problem was that the highway patrol almost never enforced the law as it is a dangerous thing to pull over a driver on a crowded California freeway and write a ticket in the breakdown lane near the center median.
Once in a while you would see a cop on a motorcycle writting out the $272 ticket. I noticed that almost every driver that got a ticket was about the same age. In their very business-like mind, the possible once-a-year ticket was well worth shaving 5.5 hours off their long weekly commute. If the driver got one ticket a year for using the carpool lane it only cost 10 cents a day to save a precious half hour of their time. Of course the second ticket for the same violation is much higher but still a deal to them.
You would see all kinds of people using create ideas to use the near-empty lanes. Dress manequins, inflatable items, etc. One lady I would see every day had a baby seat with a doll in it and she had used it so many times that the sun had faded the doll's skin color so that it no longer resembled a real baby.
The idea is that breaking some lightly enforced or unenforced rules is economically worth the price.
posted on November 26, 2002 11:15:42 AM new
" The idea is that breaking some lightly enforced or unenforced rules is economically worth the price"
That is very true, but what if the penalty was that you lost your driver's license forever. Would it be worth the price? I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here, just explain my position why I think the money saved (maybe $20 a year in my case, probably much less) is NOT worth the possible penalty, no matter how infrequently it is enforced.
posted on November 26, 2002 11:24:44 AM new
eBay is not the "law" and their TOS have limited applications, and some very well may be unenforceable due to conflicts with federal law and public policy.
If a buyer contacts me to purchase an item that is no longer listed, eBay can take no punitive actions against me the seller for transacting or I will sue and I will win. It is called restraint of trade and unfair business practices to extend their fees or TOS beyond the services purchased from the site.
The situation does not lend itself to comparisons of a "speeding" ticket or a realator sales agreement.
As others have noted, eBay's TOS has no prohibition against sellers selling off eBay when the buyer contacts the seller. eBay merely tries to scare the buyer by stating that the buyer has none of the "protections" from eBay if they purchase off eBay. And as many have learned, that "protection" is evaded at every opportunity because eBay is just a "venue".
The bottom line is that either it is YOUR business and you are in charge of it, or it is eBay's business and you are just a serf listing items.
Always remember this--- "THE ONLY MILLIONAIRES CREATED BY EBAY WERE ALL EMPLOYEES OF EBAY, THERE WERE NO MILLIONAIRE SELLERS CREATED ON EBAY."
These are YOUR cutomers, it is YOUR business, it is YOUR sales opportunity, it is YOUR economic success or failure that transpires. Ebay will not be there if your business fails, eBay risks nothing. Don't let them run your business off eBay.
[ edited by Reamond on Nov 26, 2002 11:32 AM ]
posted on November 26, 2002 11:44:33 AM new
It is considered fee avoidance by eBay
(but not by all sellers! hence the varying responses you are getting in this thread!)
eBay initiated the 'personal offer' to avoid seller's being tempted to bypass them.
Isn't 'make a personal offer' still around?
It seems to pop in & out ~ sometimes available for items not meeting reserve or for eBay motors.
posted on November 26, 2002 12:05:40 PM new
If your chances of being killed in a car or airplane are small, why does everyone still do it?
Does ebay permantely ban someone that makes a sale off ebay or just a 30 day suspsension?
If you lose your licence you can still get one in another state, or even move to another state without goofy laws. If you get kicked off ebay, you can still find alternatives to selling, or move to another site without goofy rules.
posted on November 26, 2002 12:10:39 PM new
zoomin
You are refering to the seller making the first move. Ebay defines that as fee avoidence. If however the buyer comes to you after the sale and asks about an item you sell whether it was listed on Ebay or not Ebay no longer has any dog in the hunt.
Some of you sound like you are more afraid of Ebay than the IRS.
posted on November 26, 2002 12:10:57 PM new
It is not considered fee avoidance when the buyer contacts the seller. It is only fee avoidane when the seller contacts the buyer.
And then it is only fee avoidance by the seller if the contact is about an item that is listed. It may be considered SPAM, but that is another situation.
Once a seller has transacted with a buyer, any further business relationship(s) between the seller and buyer are none of eBay's business.
I can contact MY customers and they may contact me for sales. It is my business, not eBays.
I have several suppliers that I first bought from and discovered on eBay. I now buy direct from them and get the material cheaper than it is listed for on eBay. eBay can do nothing about it, and better not try to either.
[ edited by Reamond on Nov 26, 2002 12:19 PM ]
posted on November 26, 2002 12:32:44 PM new
"Fee avoidance," that is classic. If you close an auction early to make a sale, that is fee avoidance; if it closes without a bidder, and you make a sale on your own, it is not fee avoidance because there is no fee on an unsuccessful auction.
posted on November 26, 2002 12:55:41 PM new
Recently when reporters quizzed Meg about the $1.78 million dollars she made from Goldman Sachs IPO's she said something like it was perfectly legit and was an accepted common business action that involved no wrong-doing.
Meg makes her extra money and a few sellers on ebay make their extra money with accepted common business actions that involve no wrong-doing.
posted on November 26, 2002 01:16:51 PM new
You are right, ebay is NOT the law - They are worse than the law. At least with the legal system, you get due process, and a presuption of innocense. You'll be banned on ebay, then try to explain what did or did not happen. Ebay owns the kingdom, and they are basically the judge and jury all combined into one.
Again, I am not trying to change anyone's mind on this, just pointing out that it is worth the $10 or $20 a year I pay in fees not to have to even worry about this.
posted on November 26, 2002 02:16:55 PM new
I have an eBay store. If anyone gets in contact with me because of an eBay auction (and there's really no other way), yes, I will sell to them, if they're not NARU'ed.
I just work the price out with my customer ahead of time, post it in my eBay store, restrict the item so that only that particular user can buy it (through eBay's "pre-approve" bidders feature), they do the buy it now. eBay gets 5 cents off me to list in my store, plus their FVF of course, but both me and my buyer have the protection (as much as it's worth) of leaving feedback, eBay fraud insurance (such as it is), etc.
Keeps my business accounting records straight, and all is fine and dandy.
I also do this sometimes when I have multiple items to sell (I contact the underbidder), when I have similar but not exactly the same items to sell, or if I have additional items in stock that I think my buyers may be interested in. Out of respect for other sellers, I take a quick look at the buyer's bidding history, to make sure they aren't bidding on a similar item from another seller's auction. If they are, I wait until it ends.
Conducting all transactions through my eBay store relieves me of the worry of if my actions would be considered by eBay to be fee avoidance. My customers are more comfortable with it too - I had a horrible time trying to suggestive sell my AW store items - people were leery of not going through eBay, so I closed up my AW store, set up a store on eBay, and saw my "outside" regular auction sales quadruple.
Besides, I think it's good karma. eBay has treated me pretty well - I wouldn't have a chance to do what I do without eBay, and I've found that everytime I do a little extra for someone, it comes back to me ten-fold, at least.
posted on November 26, 2002 03:27:32 PM new
Interesting that this thread should come now. I had som cheap watches on & they closed last night. I don't plan on putting them back on. I had an email this morning from a person who said they weren't able to bid because their puter was down for 4 days. Would I sell 2 of the watches to them. I said yes, at the opening bid price. I don't feel I have done anything wrong. I was contacted by the buyer. Not the other way around.
posted on November 26, 2002 07:01:34 PM new
If you have a pre-existing business relationship with an eBay customer (customer has purchased from you in the past) then according to eBay's rules you are free to conduct any sort of business with them. You can add them to an opt-out mailing list. (Of course you can't glean email addresses and then offer the item to underbidders off eBay. There's MAPO for that.)
However, you can not (again according to eBay) sell off eBay to someone who saw your ad on eBay. The reason is simple: Seller lists item with a ridiculously high reserve price. Auction ends, interested parties email seller, and seller concludes transaction off eBay. eBay loses commission.
Before eBay's new rule, this was a common practice, to the point where sellers were openly stating in the ad, "if the item doesn't sell, email me and we can work something out." In effect, discouraging bidders from bidding in the auction.
Of course this rule is all but unenforceable, especially when sellers also maintain a web site where they sell the same or similar items. But there is a logical reason for it (from eBay's viewpoint), just as there is a reason for all their restrictive rules (no email addys, no links, etc.).
eBay contends that the $.30 cents you pay to list an item entitles you to services associated with a single auction. Not to build up a customer contact list, advertise your web site, etc. Remember that for every seller who receives an occasional "buy it off eBay" email, there are other sellers who are aggressively hunting for ways to cheat eBay out of its commission.
I'd rather see eBay plug the leaks in its revenue stream, than raise prices across the board.
posted on November 26, 2002 08:13:37 PM new
Here is another angle. You list on eBay it doesn't sell. Lower the price relist and doesn't sell again. I don't want to list it again so I put it in my AW storefront. It sells, does that mean I owe ebay also. NOT
