posted on December 26, 2002 05:17:20 PM new
I think this would be directed to sellers of high ticket items, but any input would be appreciated. I think that I've been a victim of credit card or some sort of fraud, using PayPal on an Ebay purchase. I'm a seller of high ticket items, $1000+. The amount in question is quite large, even for me, it's enough to make my throat dry. Well beyond my PayPal limit. It's in the range where I only accept bank wires.
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.So, someone hits the Buy it Now button.....I e-mail them with the usual EOA notice and clearly state that due to the dollar amount payment needs to be via credit card using my merchant account or by bank wire. I give them my phone number, and ask for their number. I politely but clearly and firmly tell them that we need to speak about payment and shipping. They ignore this and PayPal me the entire amount, which has to be sent in installments as it's beyond the PayPal limit(10,000) for any transaction. They then send an e-mail asking about delivery. Their feedback on Ebay is ok, but their contact info is false, at least the phone number. Another seller also has a big purchase from this buyer...payed by paypal...same Ebay User ID..but DIFFERENT name and address to ship to.
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.I've witheld shipping. I've spoken with the buyer, and asked many times for a phone number to reach them back..they claim there is none. The person I'm speaking to is barely literate and with a slavic accent. The e-mails received are perfect English, and very cordial. I told them that this is beyond my Paypal limit, and that they need to send me a bank wire. On receipt, I'll send the merchandise and refund the PayPal payment.
The buyer now, after 7 days, is not upset with my request. I am certain that this is some type of intricate fraud. I don't want to make this post any longer than it already is, but for the sake of this thread TRUST ME, it's a scam, and a very intricate one that I can't figure out. I'm leaving out lots of lenghty details.
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.My question is. what to do? The buyer is now cordially asking for their money back. If I refund the PayPal money could I possibly be on the hook later for a chargeback. Has anyone ever had any experience with refunds gone wrong?
posted on December 26, 2002 06:38:31 PM new
i would say hit the paypal refund button before it is too late.
let paypal knows about this issue and ask them to investigate.
i assume this high price ticket is a piece of jewelry??
if they really want it ,they will arrange for payment of YOUR CHOICE.
slavic accent?? there is a site which will trace where the ip address come from??
is there a way you can trace the ip address from their email??
here is the site=http://visualroute.visualware.com/
i wont touch them with my merchant account,unless you want to capture the cc data and play detective.
posted on December 26, 2002 06:45:49 PM new
i just reread your thread,when they called you,do you have way to trace where the call come from??
i will notify paypal and let them investigate ,they have more tools than you do,and possibly ebay as well.
bank wire is not always safe either,nor is their bank check drawn on us bank.
nigerian has come up with intricate way of scamming via wire and bank check.
latest i heard,money is small fry compared to your case,but it goes like this-i like tobuy your xyz which is 1300,i am now going to ask an associate of mine or another buyer who owes me 2600,so he will send you a us bank check of 2600 and you send him a check of the difference 2600-1300=1300 and we are even.
alright,just take out your checkbook and write this nice guy a check.
you must be a seller of sterling reputation,they dont want escrow???
posted on December 26, 2002 07:02:01 PM new
let paypal knows ,the one who has the most to lose is paypal,just think if you accept the fund and close the account and go fishing in cancun.
ebay should know too,you said another seller gets the same treatment.
posted on December 26, 2002 07:06:44 PM new one who has the most to lose is paypal,just think if you accept the fund and close the account and go fishing in cancun.
Far from it, they will come after you via legal means. You are the one on the bottom of the food chain, never forget that!
posted on December 26, 2002 07:28:26 PM new
trai,talks like that really make me high.
arms of the law will touch us all,including those in mexico.
whatever happens to our friend who took paypal to court for the e gold episode,or is it paypal who took him to court??
what is the verified number next to this buyer 's paypal id,that tells how many folks he has conducted paypal business with??
paypal should have his cc on file and be able to contact the issuer of the card.
posted on December 26, 2002 07:50:48 PM new
thank you all.......
.trai.....you've hit on what I'm thinking. Paypal or Ebay won't lose here. I'm the one who faces a potential lose as I see it. I'm on the bottom of the food chain. But for now, I have the money, and the merchandise. As you've all picked up on....this is some kind of intricate fraud, possibly Nigerian, Indonesian, Russian, who knows. I'm concerned that if I simply hit the refund button, that the money may somehow go back to the scam people(I don't know how, but who knows)....and I'll be on the hook for the chargeback to come from the person who's credit card(or identity) has been stolen. I'm afraid of getting wrong info from Paypal right now and inclined to sit tight. Wait for the chargeback to come and refund the money at that time, when I'm sure I'll have the attention of PayPal's finest(sic)
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.No tracing of calls...with caller ID they are all unkwnown....and the buyer refuses to supply a phone number, says he/she is unavailable. The ISP is US. The ship to address is US. The other seller , with the same paypal payment from the same Ebay User ID , has received a different ship to address, also in the US. How is this possible with payment from Paypal from same e-mail address? The verified number is 0. The feedback is 25, but mainly 2 years old.
posted on December 26, 2002 08:10:11 PM new
pointy
I'm concerned that if I simply hit the refund button, that the money may somehow go back to the scam people(I don't know how, but who knows)and I'll be on the hook for the chargeback
My advice is to refund that payment now. It goes back to the card holder,if you wait for a chargeback you could have more problems than you need.
The thing is to get this mess out of your life.
posted on December 26, 2002 08:12:03 PM new
are both ship to address confirmed??
it has been a while,but i beleive we can have more than one source of fund -bank,paypal balance,more than one credit cards.so if there is more than one cc on file,there could be more than one confirmed addr??
why do you want to sit on the paypal fund??
you have not shipped so you lose nothing,sitting on the fund means the credit card has been charged and it is a matter of time the true owner is going to raise hell-either he gets a statement or he tries to use it and told he has exceeded his limit.
i will call paypal and get their attention,else they may lock up your account and you cant access the rest of your balance.
it sounds like mucho dinero???
posted on December 26, 2002 08:18:49 PM new
this is a good question,when seller refused payment and hit the refund button ,what happens??
does the buyer gets the fund back and it sits in his paypal account for him to decide what to do??
or does the charge get reversed?
i would think hitting the refund button should reverse the charge,dont forget paypal gets a cut,so that has to be reversed in its entirety.
we have not seen paypal damon for a long time,does he still work for paypal??
i would call paypal first thing in the morning,i will also tell ebay,sounds like you are powerseller.
there is a time limit for hitting that refund button..7 days??
dont sit around and think it will work out,it smells bad.
posted on December 26, 2002 08:24:38 PM new
come to think of it,why dont you send the fund to the guy who has this opal and emerald lot who is too busy to come to the phone or take more pictures??
posted on December 26, 2002 08:33:16 PM new
you have not shipped so you lose nothing,sitting on the fund means the credit card has been charged and it is a matter of time the true owner is going to raise hell-either he gets a statement or he tries to use it and told he has exceeded his limit.
i will call paypal and get their attention,else they may lock up your account and you cant access the rest of your balance.
it sounds like mucho dinero???
Yes...it is mucho dinero....mid 5 figures. I don't do much Paypal business and don't have anything else in the account. Locking my account is not a concern. I was thinking of even taking out these funds from this sale and parking them elsewhere until this mess was cleared up. What I'm counting on is the "real" owner raising hell and then refunding the payment when I know I'll be dealing with PayPal's best, with this kind of money involved.
My advice is to refund that payment now. It goes back to the card holder,if you wait for a chargeback you could have more problems than you need.
Trai, what problem could I have that would be bigger than what I'm concerned about......the scam person somehow getting the refund, and then me being on the hook for a huge chargeback. I'm not a big PayPal user. I guess the bottom line is.....as much as this whole thing smells, can I be sure that the refund will go back to the cardholder? You'd think it would have to, but as you see, we're dealing with a very intricate scam.
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.Anyway....even if the problems are not as big..I'm interested in hearing about what my problems could be.
posted on December 26, 2002 08:52:35 PM new
Well, if you are not a big paypal user then fine. However, I do not understand why you think that you would be on the hook for a chargeback if you refund the funds is a mystery to me.
There is no way that you would be on the hook for anything just by doing a refund.
Do come back later on when this matter gets settled and let us know how this little drama turns out.
posted on December 26, 2002 08:59:34 PM new
come to think of it,why dont you send the fund to the guy who has this opal and emerald lot who is too busy to come to the phone or take more pictures??
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.LOL......from the looks of him he's probably on the beach in Waikiki telling people what a big shot he is on Ebay....... and Damon is likely down in St. Barts with his PayPal money from the Ebay buyout....the rest of us are here....for now.
posted on December 26, 2002 09:16:55 PM new
There is no way that you would be on the hook for anything just by doing a refund.
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.Trai.....that is the exact point that I came here for advice. I've read the PayPal agreement as you have. It's not clear what happens in case of some unforeseen and mysterious scam where a refund goes where it shouldn't....somehow gets misdirected, except I don't see anywhere in the user agreement where the benefit of the doubt in an unforeseen scam goes in favor of the user. Are you 100% positive of your above statement? If it was your money would you take the chance?
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.Anyway...I will let you all know what happens.
posted on December 26, 2002 09:38:03 PM new
It has to go back on the cc used for the payment. Would I do this if this was my money?[refund] Yes. Once you refund its no longer your money.
I do understand your concern. If you feel that you are not comfortable with this you can email damon or phone paypal.
Best of luck
posted on December 26, 2002 10:21:38 PM new
Pointy,
I was wondering if there was any way you could contact your "buyer" & tell him you are not refunding his money. Since he made the mistake he has to get it back himself by contacting PayPal, cancelling this sale & requesting return of his money from them.
This way it wouldn't be you doing the refunding.
I sure can understand why you are hesitant to make a move, something is up, but what??
When a buyer spends that kind of money they most certainly know the payment terms, which they chose to ignore & I think it's for their benefit, not yours.
One other thing, how much you want to bet, if you talk to five different PayPal reps you'll get five different answers on how to handle this.
posted on December 27, 2002 07:58:55 AM new
do not call the buyer and tell him you are withholding the fund and not planning to ship him,besides pointy doesn not have his phone number ,nor can he pick up the number from his caller id the last time they chat.
scam artist does not care if you are withholding the fund,it is not his fund,it would just alert him to better protect himself.
i can see pointy's concern,if he hits the paypal refund button and if paypal internals are screwed up,he could be liable for the chargeback.
i will call both paypal and ebay and explain the situation,they have resources we dont have,only paypal knows where the fund goes after pointy hits the refund button,dont forget paypal is not a bank,it has a merchant account with a bank,and the 5 figures fund has travelled from cardholder issuer bank to paypal bank to paypal then to pointy and now we are hoping it will travel the same route back to the cardissuer.
paypal has seen a lot of scams,and they should advise you what to do.
posted on December 27, 2002 08:59:39 AM new
One other thing, how much you want to bet, if you talk to five different PayPal reps you'll get five different answers on how to handle this.
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.I agree. That's why I'm not even considering that suggestion.
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.I can't call the buyer, but the buyer has called me a few times, and e-mails have been sent both ways.
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.I've informed the buyer via e-mail that due to their initial actions in disregard for my requests to call me before doing anything.....I now need them to bank wire the funds...and upon receipt I will refund the PayPal payment and ship the merchandise. I'll let you know how it plays out. Personally I don't think that I'll be hearing anything back from the buyer after that. The next thing I'll hear is a chargeback from PayPal in a few weeks when the person who's account was stolen receives the bill.
posted on December 27, 2002 09:24:34 AM new
you can call paypal and ask to speak with a manager if you feel the rep is not capable to handle the situation,
i just dont see how they can ignore a case like this??
if they restrict your account when chargeback comes,it will jeopardise your business,many ebay bidders like to use paypal and to tell them they cannot use paypal may turn them off.
posted on December 27, 2002 11:49:49 AM new
The possibility of having my account restricted is a very minor concern for me. My main concern is the possibility of a huge loss via chargeback if this mystery scam unravels the wrong way for me. The loss of Paypal would not have a big effect on business. I'm not a mass seller, I only sell a few high ticket items a week, and I only allow the use of PayPal on the low-end of the high-end. Maybe 1 or 2 transactions a week.
posted on December 27, 2002 12:25:22 PM newMy main concern is the possibility of a huge loss via chargeback if this mystery scam unravels the wrong way for me.
How can you have a chargeback if you refund?
I understand your concerns, however your reluctance to refund the money puzzles me. You are holding the funds until he wires you the money. If I thought I had stolen goods, I would not hold them until, I got something else. I would hand them over to the proper authorities.
IF he is the holder of the credit card and he contacts them and says you won't refund his money and you have refused to ship his item, then you will be getting a chargeback.
If you have more than one credit card on file with paypal it is possible to have more than one confirmed address. Is the address he wants the good shipped to the confirmed address?
posted on December 27, 2002 12:46:01 PM new
see,a cc transaction via paypal is not like the cc transaction via your merchant account.
paypal has one big merchant account with its bank(s).
i would contact both paypal and ebay,paypal has the cc number and it is no big deal for them to find out which bank issues this card and contact the real cardholder.
i would not hit the refund button,i will wait for paypal to instruct what to do.
dont forget there have been scams where one person or several persons get together and play ping pong with cc payments and hope no one can trace it.
this is a case for the FBI-if delivery is made to a us address,they or local police can send someone posed as delivery man and arrest that sob.
posted on December 27, 2002 06:45:19 PM new
How can you have a chargeback if you refund?
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.If the refund somehow goes back not to the cc holder, but to the scam people.
IF he is the holder of the credit card and he contacts them and says you won't refund his money and you have refused to ship his item, then you will be getting a chargeback.
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.I'm not concerned about the chargeback, I'm concerned about the possibility of a chargeback after a refund....a refund that somehow gets misdirected to the bidder who's perpertrating this scam.
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biskit...I appreciate the input, but I don't think that you've read the entire thread. I'm sure that I'm dealing with a very intricate fraud here. I seem to recall that you have insight into hackers....so possibly you may have seen a thing or two about fraud. Your thoughts would be welcome after you read the entire thread. I've come here for advice because I think that all of us together understand the situation better than any PayPal employee.
posted on December 27, 2002 07:37:18 PM new
You are correct to be worried - I would also be worried enough not to refund just yet as you just may be on the hook once a charge-back hits your account - which could happen up to 61 days from date of the transaction and mabe longer depending on the Paypal TOS. I think that they will view a refund as untainted money while holding you responsible for the full charge back amount. I would withdraw everything except the amount of your suspect deposit as Paypal will surley lock your account till they decide how to proceed. Your only out here will be to sit on the merchandise hold the payment And contact Paypal & speak to their fraud investigations dept after the holiday. You can post to the paypal boards here on AW and Damon sometimes monitors on the off days.
Good luck. Oh Cashiers checks can bounce too so be careful.
posted on December 27, 2002 08:28:03 PM newbiskit...I appreciate the input, but I don't think that you've read the entire thread.
I have read the entire thread. I began reading it a few minutes after your first post.
I'm not concerned about the chargeback, I'm concerned about the possibility of a chargeback
Well you should be. From the paypal terms:
If PayPal (or Wells Fargo, in connection with processing credit card transactions) has reason to believe that you may be engaging in or have engaged in fraudulent, unlawful, or improper activity, including without limitation any violation of any terms and conditions of this Agreement, your access to the Service may be suspended or terminated. Further, if such behavior involved a MasterCard or VISA credit card transaction, it may result in you/your business being prevented from registering for payment acceptance through any payment provider or directly with any bank acquirer operating under license to either the MasterCard or VISA card associations.
In other words Paypal and Wells Fargo may rat you out as a suspected fraudster. It could affect your current merchant account.
ANY entity that processes cards on behalf of Visa or Mastercard is obligated by their agreement with them to report merchants they suspect of fraudulent activity. Visa or Mastercard can freeze your merchant account, if they get an alert from a processing bank. In this case Wells Fargo.
posted on December 27, 2002 09:26:27 PM new
Before you take on a condesending tone with me, I have read the ENTIRE thread.
I have noticed that you have been asked twice if the buyer is asking that the item be shipped to a confirmed address. You have not answered.
I e-mail them with the usual EOA notice and clearly state that due to the dollar amount payment needs to be via credit card using my merchant account or by bank wire.
Was this in your auction terms or only in your EOA?
The person I'm speaking to is barely literate and with a slavic accent. The e-mails received are perfect English, and very cordial
Being literate means, being able to read and write, it has nothing to do with the ability to speak perfect English.
I was thinking of even taking out these funds from this sale and parking them elsewhere until this mess was cleared up.
If this turned out to be a fraud, you would be in real trouble then. Moving the funds, implies acceptance.
Biskit made a point that no one else has made. With the amount of money you say is involved it could affect your own merchant account.
I agree with those that say notify paypal and refund the money.
