posted on April 6, 2003 10:40:54 PM new
passedtothepresent - you are missing the issue. If a seller has it clearly marked in their auction that they only use some sort of checkout system, that is one thing. It is quite another to have it sprung on you after you have bid, and they won't be reasonable and send an invoice. I don't want my personal information in a system that saves everything. I want an invoice from the seller so I can pay. If they won't give me an invoice, I will file a complaint with ebay.
It's not a choice as you have tried to state, because as a buyer once I place a bid, I am obligated to honor the terms of the bid. The seller is required to do certain things as well, and sending an invoice is one of those things. It really is not that difficult of a thing to do if a customer asks for it. I have no problem if you want to try to get people to use an automated system, but for those that don't want to use it, you might run into problems...
posted on April 7, 2003 04:59:19 AM new
ahc3 hit it on the nose.
It is absolutely your right (as a seller) to insist that sellers use your checkout. But it's not right to add requirements ('must use checkout') to your auction *after* it ends. So just make sure it's clear in the auction listing itself.
Also, you say Vendio's checkout is easy and only has to be done once. (I'm not that familiar with it so I'll take your word for that.) But look at it from the buyer's viewpoint. They don't know Vendio - so why should they trust them??
posted on April 7, 2003 04:41:49 PM newIs there anyone out there who uses checkout and loves it, and has lots of customers who love it?
Not now, but back in the beginning, shortly after the "let there be light" edict, I used Andale (which has or had an obnoxious checkout).
Being a curious sort, I asked buyers how they felt about it. 50% loved it, 50% hated it. No one was neutral.
I dropped Andale on the reasoning that anything that 50% of my customers hate is probably not a good idea.
--
"I'm thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said `I drank WHAT?'"
posted on April 8, 2003 05:41:44 AM new
Just to update on the situation that started this thread...and an informative thread it is LOL...my checkout-impaired bidder has not replied in any way, shape or form to my email containing the info he needs to pay thru PayPal.
As I said previously, this guy's got a big fat goose egg and shades...and I'm tempted to revert to my original attitude that this guy has done all this before.
Any other suggestions? I see a NPBA in his future.
Why, oh why, do some winning bidders make a simple process so difficult and others just sail right thru and get their purchase without a hitch? I'm particularly astounded by the buyers who use BIN and then stall the checkout process for days, some even refusing to respond at all. They give no thought to how they plan to pay for the purchase...not a phenomenon exclusive to eBay, indeed.
posted on April 8, 2003 08:07:34 AM new
passedtothepresent:
You are omitting one very important fact:
If I use checkout I would have to fill in all the junk over and over and over and over and over...sometimes 90 times a month! Many of us buy lots of things on Ebay. If I am looking for something I always check Ebay first, and I believe lots of others do as well. If that changes, so will your sell through rate.
When I buy from office depot, I go back there every couple of weeks. When I return there, they remember all my info. I do not have to retype it again and again and again.
THAT IS THE DIFFERENCE! Paypal remembers, Office Depot remembers, you do not! I have to type it over and over and over and over and over and my time is as valuable as yours so I do not see the need to cater to the seller!
I'm from the south and even the department stores there still have the attitude: "The customer is always right". Unfortunately, that is not the case in Nevada and California where I now reside.
Besides, if sellers get the attitude that you do it at Sears and Office Depot, why not here, then you will find more and more buyers doing just that...buying it at Sears and Office Depot!
posted on April 8, 2003 08:51:45 AM new
I always wonder why these idiots bid. Checking out is part of the process if buying online. It allows the seller to verify the address and accumulate any other information needed to complete the sale as quickly as possible with the least hassle on both sides.
Reminds me of the jerk who wont stand in line at the Safeway. It's part of the process.
To the buyer who will neg if there is a checkout... bottom line you are wrong.
......No one expects a car salesman to offer driving lessons. Yet for some reason offer the excuse "I am computer illiterate" as a badge of honor, which it is not.
posted on April 8, 2003 09:02:01 AM new
It's NOT part of the process of bidding in auctions though. I've done a fair amount of bidding on auctions over the years, mainly ebay. I would guess I have won some 500 auctions online, and perhaps 20 of them use checkout. The rest, I get an invoice from the seller, and I pay it. Some 4% of sellers I run into use checkout, that might vary for others, but it is right for me.
Bidding on ebay is not the same as buying online at Amazon or Staples - I expect to use an online checkout, but if I decide NOT to, they both offer toll free numbers I can call to place my order. Sellers who want business will offer as many alternatives as possible.
It would be interesting to find ebay's take on this, but I don't consider getting an invitation to go to a third party site and fill in my information as an invoice...
posted on April 8, 2003 11:15:23 AM new
Okay, Buyers, really...what is the BFD? Do you want your stuff or not? It takes two to tango...why should you NOT participate in the process a bit? Especially when it is the part that conveys YOUR information. You type it, you can make sure it is accurate, therefore less chance of a mistake. Badda bing, badda boom, you get your stuff FASTER.
I don't buy into the argument that bidding and paying are a buyer's only responsibilities in the transaction. "I'm not doing the SELLER'S work!" said in a huff. Sheesh, grow up. Sounds like my kids when they clean the living room. "I cleaned up all MY mess. That over there is not mine." I'll tell you what I tell them: "Until this chore is done, it is EVERYBODY'S mess. Pitch in, do your part, and we can all get on to better things."
So the Mom in me says:
BUYERS: YOU bid...YOU came into the Seller's world...you know each seller is different, therefore you must take a bit of time to convey your info to each...you KNOW Checkouts are out there (heck, even eBay has a Checkout system)...yet you act surprised and offended...JUST FILL IN THE DAMN FORM AND GET ON WITH LIFE.
SELLERS: You know some buyers don't like Checkout...you know the whole point is to sell your stuff, not argue over protocol...do you want your money or not?...so, if the buyer refuses to use your Checkout system, JUST FILL IN THE DAMN FORM AND GET ON WITH LIFE.
As for third-party sites, Buyers, you don't want them to have what, exactly? Your name, address, email addy? If the seller has to fill in the info for you, they are going to have it ANYWAY. And some of them have it NOW. You gave Vendio all your info and credit card information just to POST on this board....same thing with Andale (except the credit card part) if you post over at OTWA.
If you are concerned about privacy, get a separate email address for online dealings (and use SPAM filters or press Delete), get a post office box instead of using your home address, use a small isolated bank account with a VISA or MC debit card attached for your online trading (advisable for PayPal anyway). If you're in the Federal Witness Protection Program, ask the FBI if they can get you a separate identity just for eBay.
If you are online and you expect to stay anonymous and untroubled...well, GOOD LUCK WITH THAT. Show the rest of us how to do it, and your fortune is made.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:30:15 AM new
My last word on this...bet you are all glad
I only bid when they use Paypal...I pay by Paypal as soon as auction ends (I also only bid when shipping costs are made available in ad)...Paypal has my mailing address and, therefore, when I pay so do you!
Now, you want to compete with Office Depot or Sears, fine! I will shop at them instead of with you.
You want to make things easier on me, the buyer, and accept paypal quick and easy for ME which is what I want when I buy... really, really when my money is spent it is about ME not YOU! then I will gladly spend my money with you and I spend lots! I spend $3200 in January alone (all on Ebay)
Edited to add (not lindajean on Ebay so don't look it up and then say I don't do what I say). I would never ever give my auction id here on this board!
posted on April 8, 2003 11:34:40 AM new
I think some of the checkout sellers are confused. I am not advocating that they give up checkout. I am advocating that they allow other ways to pay if the buyer does not want to use it. I would suspect that 95% of buyers will use checkout when presented to them - maybe more. I am a seller, so I know that perspective well. I sell a lot more than I buy on ebay. All I am saying is that if a seller wants to use a checkout system (which is fine) they need to offer another way to pay if the buyer does not want to use it.
posted on April 8, 2003 11:35:42 AM new
OK, one more word.
I think what the small minority of you want is to make Ebay just another online store.
Well, if and when that happens, I think it will disappear. People can buy anything anywhere now, and Ebay is just a convenient way to do it.
You are in the minority. I have only ran across one seller in three months who uses checkout, and they didn't even insist. Last year, I had 1 that insisted. I refused, they accepted my money and sent item. I told them speed wasn't important and they could put me at the end of their list if they wanted to...I just was not going to go through all that hassle!
Of course, I don't buy new stuff. If I want new things I go to the mall so I can see what I am buying!
posted on April 8, 2003 11:36:38 AM newdavebraun I think the distinction you're not getting is that there is a third party involved - whoever provides the "checkout" services.
Let me try a hypothetical: Say you have a 10-year-old daughter, and say she's really bugging you for a particular style of designer jeans. You go on eBay and spend the time to find a seller that has very good feedback and a long history. But when you get the end of auction notice, you discover that you're expected to go to www.fancyauctionmanagersite.com and enter your home address, your shipping address, your home and work telephone numbers and maybe even your credit-card number (if it's not a Paypal transaction.)
A month or so goes by, and suddenly you find that your home mailbox is full of children's clothing catalogs, coupons from Toys R Us and come-ons to buy $200 dolls from the Franklin Mint. Someone is calling your house trying to get you to buy a "child identification kit" or extra life insurance "to protect your precious little one." Someone has figured out that there's a little girl living in your house.
You're on a list that will be sold, and re-sold, and re-sold. Someone is making money off your personal information, but they never paid you a dime. You never really chose to do business with them. You may never have had a chance to review their privacy policy - and even if you did, your personal data is subject to being exploited later, because if the auction management company is sold, your personal data becomes an "asset."
One incident may not be a real problem, unless that particular third-party service is set up as a scam from the beginning, or it's lax about security. But multiply it over and over again, and you get a potentially scary situation. Then you start thinking about how the market is already starting to consolidate, meaning that eventually, information collected by several sites might be consolidated into one massive database. Mass-marketing companies have been known to contract out their mass-marketing operations - to prisons!
Obviously, you can't do business on the Internet without giving out some personal information. But at the very least, you should have the opportunity to decide - in advance of giving out your personal data - that it's really worth it to you.
Personally, I'll use checkouts from a few services, including Vendio, whose privacy policies I have reviewed. I'll use Paypal. But if I've never heard of the third-party service, I'm not using it. And when I have customers who balk at using the Vendio checkout and don't want to use Paypal either, I just deal with them "by hand."
posted on April 8, 2003 11:44:14 AM new
My own Payment Instructions state:
You may use eBay's CHECKOUT, or the PAYPAL button, or wait for an email from the Seller. Seller will notify you when payment is received and when your item is shipped. RETURNS require the prior approval of Seller.
But, since I started using AuctionSage, which pulls the checkout info (including the buyer's address) from eBay's system, I haven't really needed a checkout system. Even when I used one at another company, I didn't make it mandatory. eBay buyers aren't ready for that...as evidenced by the varied opinions expressed here.
posted on April 8, 2003 12:09:51 PM new
When I buy I don't mind checkouts, most are fast and easy. The service seems faster than waiting for the seller to contact me. I love PayPal also. I just want to pay and get my stuff.
As a seller I offer ebay checkout and I also send a personal e-mail. I find that the majority of my buyers go direct to PayPal from the button on my auctions and they seem to prefer that. I offer lots of different payment methods and have no set rules about how fast things should be done and over all it works fine for me.
Some customers are totally anonymous from start to finish. Others are in between and just want confirmation that they have done everything right and that I have also. Then there is the third group, the ones I tolerate. If they want to tell me about their dead dog or how their mother burned down the kitchen in their first e-mail to me I find it a lot easier to feign interest on this side of my computer than when they stand on the other side of the counter in my store. (One customer came in and flipped open her coat and asked me what I thought. She had got breast implants because her husband wasn't paying attention to her. What did I think? YIKES! I didn't even know her except when she came in to buy jewelry!)
I decided long ago whatever makes the customer happy as long as I get some money out of it and it's within my terms then I am happy also.
posted on April 8, 2003 12:27:22 PM new
My buyers can use checkout or not use it as they wish as long as they contact me. I have an Instant Paypal link on all my auctions but I have not use their shipping calculator (if they have one).
lindajean
How can a seller quote the shipping when they don't know it? I quote on all under 1 lb items but what should I do on the 2 or 3 lb items.
I live in Florida so should I quote everyone the California rate? Don't think that's too fair. I always quote on request and have top notch high number FB. Have you considered bidding with someone like me?
This post has been very informative but I don't get but a few winners that seem to mind the checkout. But could I be losing bids because I use checkout and don't always put in the shipping? Is this why I always feel over charged on the shipping when I buy?
Thanks
posted on April 8, 2003 12:44:50 PM new
ladyjewels: I'm not sure how they do it, but a large percentage of sellers have a little link in their ads that says click here and enter your zip to get postage totals.
I use that a lot, and I buy lots of things that come with flat rate shipping.
For myself, I only sell media rate items or very light items so I can just put in a flat rate total with no problems.
posted on April 8, 2003 01:46:10 PM new
Thank you all for taking the time to share your wonderful insights. As I said, I'm not new to ebay but I am new to selling on ebay.
I am not trying to compete with Sears, what I sell cannot be bought at the mall, and almost always cannot be acquired new. My true competition is the dedicated sites that market similar vintage items retail, with or without ebay as an add-on.
My question was why there seemed to be such disproportional outrage at a seller checkout requirement when ebay checkout is pretty standard but not a seller requirement. Also, to toss out for consideration that most online businesses that are internet based (not brick and morter businesses with 1-800 numbers that do internet business as only a sideline) all require some entry of the buyers' info by the buyer on some form or another, or the transaction simply does not occur.
It was helpful to hear of the perceived extra work to fill out forms for different sellers over and over again, but that there are about as many complaints that the system does not remember the customer's info as those who are upset that it might.
I certainly agree that things should be spelled out in the listing in advance, but how to do it is a sort of a catch 22. If it's blasted all over the listing (like mine is), it runs the risk of looking demanding and controlling and uppity. If it's not super obvious, and the bidder doesn't read the whole listing and gets caught by surprise, both the seller and the checkout end up being resented. If I give alot of fine print that spells out expectations (which I do), it can be seen as evidence of a picky or "trouble" seller but if I don't, then there is a potential litany of post sale complaints that the buyers weren't told in advance.
The advice about just filling out the form and getting on with things is good advice in general, but the whole thing here is that nobody wants to fill out anything--buyers (who think it is sellers' work) or sellers (who feel some of it should be the buyers' work). Sooner or later somewhere, someone has to do it, and the buyer has to type it.
It is interesting that buyers perceive there is no personal communication or personal touches with a checkout. I just finished discussing questions about the midwest weather with one customer, and asking how things were going in their state with another--all within my automailer default edit options. It is not different than when I used to cut and paste stock email messages from my computer with an added personal touch, but the perception that the seller would not do that seems to be inordinately skewed.
Thanks to all of you, I think I'm finally beginning to get a take on this. In part it really is "an ebay thing". I am fortunate to not be dependent on ebay, just a new seller testing the water, and there are many things much more important to me than my sell through rate.
The kind input of all of you have given has helped me put ebay in more perspective relative to the larger internet world of business opportunities available to me instead. In the meantime, if any of you end up winning one of my auctions, I always solicit in my WBN any input that might make the customers' experience with my site and my checkout more pleasant. I hope I'll get to hear from some of you so I can tweak it better and better all the time.
Fortunately (or unfortunately) I think Vendio has spoiled me now beyond recovery-- never again will I generate and handle every email typed entirely or individually copied and pasted by hand one by one, or type WBNs personally, or do the gruntwork of routine notices one by one-- even if it means moving on from ebay as my main selling focus.
Thanks bunches, bunches, and bunches to all of you!!!
posted on April 8, 2003 03:44:01 PM new
kiara: Please tell me she was wearing something under the coat. Please. Something other than a perky attitude, I mean.
--
"I'm thinking of the immortal words of Socrates, who said `I drank WHAT?'"
posted on April 8, 2003 04:40:37 PM new
Dear fluffythewondercat. My above thank you was sincere. Thanks to all who cared enough to send helpful input to my original post. Sorry I risked sharing my heart and last round of thoughts on this community board trying to do a good job as a new ebay seller. It won't happen again.
posted on April 8, 2003 05:12:46 PM new
fluffy, she was wearing a black dress. When she asked me what I thought I just figured maybe she got a new dress.
Being the business person I am, I could remember what jewelry she bought last time she was in but not how big she was on top.
posted on April 10, 2003 05:00:02 AM new
Get over it!
I charge a flat fee for shipping. Near addresses make me some handling money, far addresses are covered. That way I dont need to waste time on calculating shipping.
Only had 3 complaints in 400 orders.
posted on April 13, 2003 07:20:45 PM new
My question is for those that refuse to fill out tohe checkout because they don't want to be put on a mailing list... you have to give the seller your address one way or another, do you really think that they cannot manually enter your address in their list?
On a personal note. I recently sold a quanitity of the same item in different auctions. 8 of the buyers have decided not to fill out the checkout form. Two of these 8 have sent in payment with no reference to their email address or the auction ID Next week, these two people will be recieve NPAs from ebay. That's a lot of hassle that could have been avoided by just filling out their address.
posted on April 13, 2003 08:48:24 PM new
A poster said earlier that using a third party checkout could indicate there is a girl child in a home from the purchase made.
True, but even more can be found out about an individual and what sex and age their kids are just by looking at what they buy on their feedback page. Anyone who knows my user ID could find out my bra size, what I read, and so on. Have you ever gone and looked at what else your buyers are buying to get a look at what their buying habits are, especially in unrelated categories?
Admittedly, you can't get the contact info nowadays unless you are in a trasaction with the person, but much more intimate details of one's life are told by what they've bought.
It can be morr entertaining than watching paint dry, at least.
posted on April 14, 2003 04:48:55 AM new
Neonmania - you said....
My question is for those that refuse to fill out tohe checkout because they don't want to be put on a mailing list... you have to give the seller your address one way or another, do you really think that they cannot manually enter your address in their list?
You're missing the point. Obviously the *seller* needs my address. It's the ***third-party checkout company*** I don't necessarily trust.
And - yes - the seller can manually enter my email address to a list. No way I can stop that. But I don't have to make it easy for them.
On a personal note. I recently sold a quanitity of the same item in different auctions. 8 of the buyers have decided not to fill out the checkout form. Two of these 8 have sent in payment with no reference to their email address or the auction ID Next week, these two people will be recieve NPAs from ebay. That's a lot of hassle that could have been avoided by just filling out their address.
..or they could have just included the auction number with their payment like most people do. You can't blame them not giving you the auction number in their payment on them not checking out - they're unrelated. You obviously give them at least two options (go through checkout/send auction info with payment) - they messed up both.
posted on April 14, 2003 07:39:49 AM new
:: You can't blame them not giving you the auction number in their payment on them not checking out - they're unrelated. ::
Where did I make that leap? I have a rather scary percentage of customers that end me a payment with no indictaiton as to what it is for. Most of the time I can figure it out based on the payment amount, in other cases, I can do it based on comparing their return address to the address that have been entered in the check-out. In this case the item number would not be that helpful since the items were sold in BIN Dutch auctions so they share item numbers. Had they gone thru check out the possibility is greater that they would have printed out the invoice page. Even if they had not, I would have their address and their sale would be closed out right now.
posted on April 14, 2003 02:06:39 PM new
Really surprised to see how many bidders object to CHECKOUT. We use it in all our auctions and rarely have anyone object. We run 6-8 hundred auctions/month and CHECKOUT makes it much easier for us to manage our paperwork...
posted on April 14, 2003 02:28:24 PM new
I have a few bidders who don't like Checkout and won't even reply until they get notice from me. So, I have a WBN template. I just fill in the blanks and send it off to each winner. That way I'm sure everyone knows what to pay. It makes checkout moot I guess in some cases.
posted on April 14, 2003 03:09:59 PM new
People seem to keep missing the distinction between individual sellers and third-party payment systems.
It is unlikely that an eBay seller - unless they're really, really big - is going to build a database of customers big enough to be of interest to one of the big data-collection firms. However, an auction-management company that services hundreds of eBay sellers will compile, in very short order, the personal information of tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of individual customers. That info will come to them complete with the seller's home address, their email address their payment method, their name, phone number and the titles of the auctions on which they have bid.
This article from the New York Times from 1998 (ancient in Internet years) describes the faltering first steps of the consumer-profiling movement and its pitfalls. Since then, the practice of data-mining has become much more sophisticated. Even worse, they're now talking about giving the government the right to access those vast commercial databases. At which point, privacy evaporates!
A lot of people deal on eBay precisely because they don't want to give their info to one of the known offenders, like Amazon, which keeps track of not only every book you order but every web page you look at.
posted on April 14, 2003 04:44:48 PM newtoben88 sez...
"Get over it! I charge a flat fee for shipping. Near addresses make me some
handling money, far addresses are covered. That way I dont need to waste time on calculating shipping."
Exactly what I do. Basically, if it goes somewhere on the east coast I make a buck and change, if it goes to the midwest its just about even, maybe I throw in a few cents. If it goes to the west coast it costs me a buck or 2. If its a heavy item and it ends up going to the west coast I drop it down to parcel posts. I've done hundreds of transactions this way and not a single complaint. Buyers like to see shipping costs stated up front. If they are not unreal, they won't complain.
- Tim
[ edited by TomSwift on Apr 14, 2003 04:45 PM ]
Cheryl