posted on January 20, 2004 12:21:27 PM new
Hi everyone. I thank you in advance for your time. I am avid, long-time eBay seller/buyer, but I am relatively new to the discussion boards and still learning the ropes. My name is Steve Woda and I'm the Founder of buySAFE. One of buySAFE's Bonded Sellers suggested that I make a contribution to your discussion in an effort to clarify any worries about buySAFE and The Hartford. Please forgive me for the length of my post, but I wanted to help as best I could.
As I mentioned, I am also an eBay buyer and seller, and that is why I decided to start a new company focused on completely eliminating the risks that buyers face online and helping sellers to optimize their businesses. I created the idea for buySAFE after being burned in an online auction a few years ago while trying to buy a handheld computer. I believed then, and I continue to believe that there is a lot more we can do to help protect auction buyers, and just as important, make them feel safer online. This is buySAFE's mission.
There is a little confusion about what buySAFE is and is not. buySAFE is not insurance, and it isn't an escrow service. It isn't an ID verification service or a credibility signal providing limited or non-existent protection. buySAFE utilizes something brand new to eCommerce..Surety Bonds (provided and guaranteed by a 193 year old, trusted financial institution, The Hartford). Surety bonds guarantee that contracts are completed successfully and that parties are treated fairly. Surety bonds are actually a very old concept. The construction industry has used them to guarantee contracts for a hundred years. It is an old, proven idea, but in a new arena - online auctions. AND, surety bonds accomplish everything that ALL of the other current marketplace solutions accomplish combined.
Surety bonds send a VERY, VERY powerful signal to buyers regarding the seller and about the safety of the transaction. Your obvious question - Why is the signal so powerful?
First, buySAFE thoroughly & completely qualifies individual sellers based on their online selling experience, their reputation, and their financial stability (as determined by their creditworthiness). Then buySAFE verifies the identity of the seller applicant via an ID verification process provided by Equifax. Our belief is that "bad guys" rarely have good feedback, good credit AND a legitimate identity. Our goal is to provide buyers with complete confidence in a seller and her auction listings because we have thoroughly pre-qualified the seller so that the buyer doesn't have to worry about trying to do it on her own.
THEN, if we are wrong, if we goofed in our judgment about a seller's professionalism and reliability, The Hartford backs it up with a surety bond - a broad, comprehensive protection that guarantees all of the promises made by the seller. Surety bonds provide the same level of comprehensive protection as escrow services, but without the risks of fake escrows, high costs, and time delays. buySAFE isn't just a fraud protection program. buySAFE is trying to accomplish a larger goal. Problem prevention AND complete protection!!!
This is why buySAFE & The Hartford ask applicants for information similar to an online credit card application (a couple of you asked why this is important). buySAFE and The Hartford use the applicant's SS#, Drivers License #s, and a series of unique, personal questions to ensure that the applicant isn't a fraudster using a stolen identity. buySAFE takes ID verification very seriously! AND, you can feel confident that your private information is protected. How many of us already have an insurance policy with The Hartford? This is their business, and they have been at it for over 190 years. How many of us already have a credit file with Equifax? Almost all of us do. Again, this is their business. We cannot verify your identity without utilizing private information that only you would know. That is obviously the goal of ID verification.
We use the seller's eBay User ID and password to verify that the seller's application information is correct and to enable buySAFE to post the buySAFE Seal for Bonded Sellers. buySAFE is an eBay Certified Developer, and although the User ID and password is currently necessary, eBay has developed an alternative solution that will be implemented over the next 30-45 days. I believe that is good news for everyone.
The group is asking very important and critical questions about the need for surety bond protection on eBay, so let me provide a couple of thoughts to be considered.
If you can help an online shopper feel COMPLETELY safe, isn’t she more likely to bid on your auction? Less risk = more bidders = higher profits. This is obviously good for the professional sellers that make a living on eBay.
The importance of trust and brands is very important to eBay sellers. Let me give you a non-eBay example first as a point of illustration that you can research very quickly yourself. Why is it that when you go to www.MySimon.com to compare prices for a Palm Tungsten C, that the sellers with great brands - Gateway, Staples, Dell, Palm, Office Depot - Why are they able to command prices that average more than 21% higher than the sellers most of us have never heard of? Go check it out. This is a random sample I just tried, but it almost always happens the same way. An average price of $498.80 versus $409.76 - Why is that? It is because people want to avoid risk and uncertainty, and dealing with a trusted brand is the best way to avoid experiencing a problem in the first place. Isn't that what the average person thinks about when making a purchase?
Credit cards (and even PayPal) provide great fraud protection, but do they help the smaller sellers achieve prices comparable to larger, well-branded sellers? Most of the time, the answer is "no". Buyers want a strong signal of trust BEFORE they purchase.
Isn't this why sellers care so much about their Feedback Ratings? Higher feedback ratings help people feel less at risk and therefore, more bidders bid.
Is feedback enough? Can good guys go "bad"? Can bad guys fake their feedback? If a seller has 99% positive feedback, does the prospective buyer worry about the other 1% of the time?
buySAFE’s service really isn’t about the buyers that already purchase from you. It’s about the buyers that don’t. If a buyer has to choose between two sellers with similar feedback ratings, how does she make her decision to purchase from one versus the other? Would the unconditional support and guarantee of a huge, trusted financial institution provide a seller with a small advantage over his competitors that also have 2,000 feedback ratings? If a shopper has $100 to spend and all other things are equal, isn't the average buyer going to choose "No Risk at No Cost" versus "Everything should go fine"?
Can you really say that the people that avoid shopping on eBay are not a little nervous about buying from someone they don't know? Of course they are. As successful as eBay has become, MOST people still don't buy on eBay. If you ask them why not, most people will tell you it is because buying on eBay is a little too risky for them. Meg Whitman said at eBay Live in Orlando that her goal is to get her Mom to try eBay. How are we going to get our Moms to buy on eBay? Make it safer - that's how!
When people do buy on eBay, don't these same doubts affect how much they are willing to pay? Of course it does - just a little bit. But a little bit (5-20%+ depending on the type of product and size of purchase) is pretty expensive to professional sellers that only operate on the slimmest of margins. A 5% price increase for a seller operating on 10% margins provides a 50% improvement in profits. Right?
As a previously burned eBay buyer and hopeful seller, these are all questions that I have spent the last three years thinking about. I may be an idealist, but these are my beliefs and I hope I'm not alone. I believe that buySAFE and The Hartford have developed a service that is good for everyone online. It is good for buyers - no risk and no additional cost. It is good for sellers - more bidders = higher close rates & higher profits. It is good for eBay - my Mom might just try shopping on eBay if she doesn't have to worry about the "bad guys" she always reads about in the media. That is the goal. That is buySAFE's mission. AND, we need your help, insights and feedback in order to make this community a better, safer place where the little guy can still compete against the big retailers. We need to continue to make online auctions safer for buyers and more profitable for the legitimate, professional small businesses that want to sell online.
Finally, let me quickly address marcn's observation about the seller posting the buySAFE seal with an ID that doesn't have 100 feedbacks. This was a great catch by marcn. Thank you.
This seller is, in fact, an approved, qualified seller. He has passed all of buySAFE's minimum experience and reputation guidelines. This professional seller also passed buySAFE's electronic ID verification process, and his financial stability was determined to be excellent. However, he has multiple IDs, and we made a decision to allow him to post the seal on all of his listings for all of his IDs. However, it obviously appears to send the wrong message. We agree. Therefore, we immediately withdrew the buySAFE Seal from this User ID's listings, and the seller, although disappointed, was very, very understanding of our position. Obviously, we appreciate his professionalism. In the future, we will only allow seals on IDs with more than 100 feedback ratings regardless of the aggregate feedback figures.
Thank you again for your insights and feedback. We appreciate it, and please keep the great discussion going. Have a great 2004!
posted on January 20, 2004 01:04:40 PM new
Hi Kiara.
No, I am not the same Steve who started Reliable Merchants. I didn't know that company was started by a Steve, too -- what a great name .
Our service is very different than Reliable Merchants. buySAFE uses a legal surety bond issued by The Hartford Financial Services Group to guarantee the performance of the sellers we approve.
posted on January 20, 2004 01:26:47 PM new
BuySafe sounds great in theory but in my opinion will never take off. If you buy a laptop on ebay you are taking a major gamble and that gamble is usually reflected in a low price. Buy locally unless you are in a very remote location.
The sellers will probably never embrace you idea and the buyers will probably not seek out BuySafe sellers.
Good luck and at least you are giving it a try.
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
posted on January 20, 2004 08:20:12 PM new
As far as I am concerned, there is no way I will ever give my SS number or any bank info to anyone. Then even if I did, I already am paying way too much in fees to justify paying another.
posted on January 21, 2004 04:02:30 AM new
Stone, I don't remember and am unsure, but don't you have to give your SS to paypal when you sign up?
I think it could be a good service, but for small sellers (if that is what you are trying to attract) I agree, there is already so many fees to pay. Your postage account, your ebay, your paypal, your listing service if you use one, your store fees, your this, your that! All your computer and packing supplies. I am sure there is more I havent even thought of. so by the time you factor in all these things, small sellers are already getting pinched.
And although its true, safety and name recognition play a big part in sales and I've been there where I've thought "I'd be better off buying it from Best Buy", type of mood, I do believe it is the lower price and on (high end goods)lack of sales tax that is the main attraction for many buyers. I also feel people LIKE the gamble of it all. (If you think not, consider the gamming industry's revenues.)
And Steve, (Nice to meet you btw) as far as 'one's mother' buying on ebay, my opinion is there is a certain percentage of the population that still has not 'caught on' with e-commerce or will, ever, ever care to. We all as sellers are hoping some will eventually come around to it and some probably will. So yes. Safety is a big factor and concern. But the ones who are out there and have been at it long enough - know the ropes, and there is even a certain pride in thinking that you do, so convincing those buyers/sellers is gonna be a long haul for you JMO.
But I wish you luck with your site. It might take off as e-commerce explodes more and the ever advancing tech revolution is more norm than not. Its hard to say. But I will tell you one thing other thing that bothers me: I am not in the best of financial situations right now (as anybody on this board who's read my stupid confessional posts knows by now) BUT....I am an honest seller, follow through on my transactions, pay my bills to the best of my ability and in because of my current situation is EXACTLY why I turned to selling on EBAY.
But by all data supplied, your company might deem me "unsafe" to transact with and that is the furthest thing from the truth. I am proably one of the safest sellers to transact with. And by all accounts
on various boards and media profiles, THERE'S a whole lotta people doing ebay precisely for the reasons I am, as well. So..... how does your company factor in the people like me?
ed for spelling
[ edited by neroter12 on Jan 21, 2004 04:07 AM ]
posted on January 21, 2004 04:19:07 AM new
I wish you luck as well, Steve. However, IMO there are more dishonest bidders on eBay than there are dishonest sellers. My NBP stats of late are proof of that. Anytime you buy anything sight unseen you are taking a risk. If you buy from a catalog, you are taking a risk. If you aren't willing to take that risk, shop at WalMart. Oh, wait, they are online, too. I think your application process is very invasive and just not for me. Giving you all that personal information isn't worth the $100 for doing so. JMO.
posted on January 21, 2004 08:37:26 AM new
Hi Steve,
For me, it isn't necessarily about giving out information (though I am careful about that, and I think that will turn a LOT of potential clients off) - The biggest problem as I see that buyers just don't care, or can't tell the difference between all the different "protections" - They strongly believe that whenever they purchase something online, they are taking as chance. As a buyer myself, the seller can have a letter from the pope proclaiming this person is legitimate and will one day be a saint, but it isn't going to do much for me. Ebay is great for some purchases, but as you got burned on a computer, that is something I will NEVER purchase on ebay.
One other question...What happens if someone's account is hijacked, someone from Bulgaria sells 50 laptop computers for $100 each, and disappears with the money. Are you going to guarantee those purchases to legitimate buyers?
posted on January 21, 2004 02:00:12 PM new
I think they want the ssn# and other personal information, because The Hartford is issuing a $10,000 surety bond on your behalf.
You basically become a bonded seller. So a buyer can collect from Buysafe/The Hartford up to $10,000 per item, if something goes wrong with a sale with one of their bonded merchants.
So the info they are collecting is used by Buysafe/The Hartford to determine if you are worth the risk of a $10,000 surety bond. Its similar to information that you would have to give if you were trying to get a car loan or a mortgage.
It looks like an interesting service for people that don't have feedback on eBay or want to sell higher priced merchandise online.
As for if they are legitimate, if you check the press section of the The Hartford Web site at: http://www.thehartford.com/press/ there is a press announcement about their affiliation with BuySafe.com. There is also an article about their service in the Nov. 17th 2003 issue of the New York Times.
posted on January 23, 2004 05:51:26 PM new
Except if they don't have feedback on eBay they're not eligible? Unless I missed something...
As several other posters said, there is absolutely NO WAY I'd EVER give my SS# to some outfit like this. Besides which I don't see where it would ever carry it's fees in higher bids.
Lucy
I grow old...I grow old...I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled. T.S. Eliot
posted on January 23, 2004 09:43:23 PM newbut don't you have to give your SS to paypal when you sign up?
No you do not have too. During the signup process, you need to give three of four items to confirm who you are. One is your e-mail address which is used to verify who you are and the first step in the confirmation process. Then you need to confirm your bank account where PayPal makes two small deposits and you need to report back with the amounts to verify they have the correct account.
The next step to getting confirmed is either giving your Social Security Number (which I would never do in a million years). Or you can confirm your credit card by allowing PayPal to charge a small amount of money along with a confirmation code in the billing section of your credit card statement. Then you go back to your PayPal account and put in that confirmation code then you are set. I've helped set up four new accounts for friends in the past year and it's scarey the fact I can remember all that.
posted on January 27, 2004 09:13:41 AM new
Thank you to everyone who has welcomed me and my previous response. I am happy to be a part of this wonderful community. I read what everyone had to say, good and bad, and I think you all have great views. Here are some of my responding thoughts… (Again, sorry for the length of the post, but I want to adequately address everyone’s statements.)
auctionACE, you said "buySAFE sounds great in theory buyt in my opinion will never take off. The sellers will probably never embrace your idea and the buyers will probably not seek out buySAFE sellers. Good luck and at least you are giving it a try..."
My response: Thanks for the well wishes. I agree that buySAFE is a great idea and I truly think that with proper education and awareness about buySAFE to the auction community, it will be a success and it will benefit all of the parties involved in the auction transaction. It is already growing on eBay, as there were over 1,000 listings today with the buySAFE Seal!! Our service is a win-win situation for all eBayers, as it increases safety for buyers and provides greater opportunities for sellers.
You also said, "If you buy a laptop on eBay you are taking a major gamble and that gamble is usually reflected in a low price. Buy locally unless you are in a very remote location."
My response: buySAFE serves to eliminate this gamble that buyers face. You can buy a laptop or a plasma TV or anything else on eBay free from risk…IF it is bonded. buySAFE currently has the ability to protect any transaction up to $10,000. This gives buyers the ability to protect themselves without having to “buy locally” AND online sellers don’t have to feel the negative affects of these buyer fears.
Stoncecold613, you said "...I am already paying way too much in fees to justify paying another."
My response: Understandable, and we totally agree. There are two types of fees that face an eBay seller. There are the fees you HAVE to pay to even operate your business, like rent with a brick and mortar and listing fees with eBay. Yes, there are too many of these fees. AND there are the fees that help to grow your business. For example, if you provide your customers with a coupon so they will return to your store and buy more goods, it will cost you money, but in return you will have more business. In essence, you are spending money to make money. Obviously, there aren’t enough of these types of services & fees.
I like to say that buySAFE is either FREE or FREE! First, we give you $100 once you have signed up, qualified and bonded one item. That $100 can pay for $10,000 in buySAFE fees!! If you bring in $5,000 a month on eBay, that gives you two months of using buySAFE for absolutely no cost!! Second, after the two (or however many) months it takes you to use the $100, you will know if you are a more successful seller because of buySAFE. If buySAFE is not helping your business, you can stop using it. There are no application fees, long term commitments or monthly fees/minimums attached with our service.
If buySAFE is helping you to generate more bidders and profits, the 1% fee is obviously not going to be an issue (We are already seeing very positive results for most of our sellers). Our generous promotion is designed to let sellers try our service because we know sellers want facts, not theory. Any seller that qualifies for our service can see how we can impact their business without the risk of increased fees. If our service isn’t benefiting a seller while trying it for free, they can simply stop using it with no cancellation or non-usage fees of any type. Basically sellers have nothing to lose and everything to gain.
Neroter12, you said, "Don't you have to give your SSN to PayPal when you sign up?"
My response: Yes, in many cases you do. eBay's ID Verify also requires this same information, and they do it for the same reason as buySAFE - to verify the identity of the applicant.
You also give this information to a number of sources now like your doctor, your insurance company, your credit card company, etc... But, if someone is not comfortable providing this information, that is totally okay. You HAVE to be comfortable with any decisions you make. Our service is not for everyone, and we know and understand that fact. In order to perform the thorough qualification process we run on buySAFE’s Bonded Sellers, buySAFE and The Hartford need this information. In part, our service’s credibility rests on the sellers’ financial stability and the verification of their identities, and we use the SSN to help determine these factors.
You also said, "I wish you luck with your site. BUT, ...I am not in the best of financial situations right now, BUT I am an honest seller, follow through on my transactions, pay my bills to the best of my ability and because of my current situation is exactly why I turned to selling on eBay. But by all the data supplied, your company might deem me "unsafe" to transact with and that is the furthest thing from the truth. ...There are a whole lotta people doing eBay precisely fort the reasons I am. ..So how does your company factor in people like me?"
My response: Thank you and I am sorry to hear about your current financial situation. As you stated, you are not alone and NO, that does not make you a bad seller. We aren’t in any way trying to say that to buyers. The truth is that MOST sellers on eBay are good and safe. It’s the few bad apples that ruin it for the good sellers and that is what buySAFE is here for. buySAFE is here to provide weary buyers with a complete guarantee that they will receive what they pay for on eBay. We aren’t telling those buyers not to buy from anyone else, but that we (buySAFE and The Hartford) can only make promises about and for those sellers who we qualify and bond.
CBlev65252, you said, "I think your application process is very invasive and just not for me..."
My response: Cheryl, that is totally understandable. Our service is not for everyone. The questions on our application are indeed personal. BUT that information allows buySAFE to provide our full support and backing of a seller to the buyers on eBay. I am sure you are a fabulous seller, and I wish you the best of success.
You also said, "There are more dishonest bidders on eBay than there are dishonest sellers."
My response: Well, this isn’t the keystone of our service; however, we believe that buySAFE will help reduce the occurrence of buyer fraud for our Bonded Sellers. This is because a surety bond is a legal contract between The Hartford, the buyer and the Bonded Seller. If something goes wrong with a bonded transaction, a bright light is directed at the relevant parties to determine who is at fault. We believe that most “bad” buyers with ill-intent will shy away from going up against a $200 billion dollar insurance company that has the benefit of data regarding previous “frivolous” claims. Also, we will never pay out a claim check without verifying the identity of the buyer first, and this enables us to avoid dishonest buyers intent upon defrauding our customers. Also, The Hartford has a legal obligation to protect our seller customers from false allegations because we are using a surety bond, not traditional insurance. Sellers suffer the affects of dishonest bidders, and our belief is that buySAFE will help our sellers with this problem, not hurt.
eBayvet, you said, "The biggest problem I see is that buyers just don’t care, or can’t tell the difference between all the “protections” – they strongly believe that whenever they purchase something online, they are taking a chance."
My response:
You are probably right that some buyers don’t care and I agree that many can’t tell the difference between the protections. However, some buyers are looking for ways to minimize their risks, so they can just enjoy the pleasures of online auctions shopping. I think we all intuitively know that trust is a major issue for many buyers, and this is why sellers work so hard to develop high feedback ratings and often include personal assurances or “bid with confidence” language in their item listings. For those buyers that are looking for reassurance, we believe “No Risk at No Cost” protection by a trusted company like The Hartford will have an impact on their perception of risk when dealing with Bonded Sellers.
Some other services in this marketplace are a lot less clear. One such service bluntly states something to the affect of, “[we] cannot guarantee a transaction or a seller’s performance.” With language like this, I would certainly agree with you that buyers wouldn’t have a great deal of confidence in the “protection”. BUT, research shows that SOME buyers do care and industry research cites that 2/3 of online shoppers avoid auctions altogether because of their perceptions of risk. The 1/3 of online shoppers that don’t avoid auctions still discount their bids anywhere from 6-20% because of trust issues.
By the way, we believe the best way to educate folks regarding the benefits of purchasing from buySAFE Bonded Sellers is for the sellers themselves to tell people about buySAFE. We believe that professional sellers will be the driving force behind educating consumers.
You also said, "What happens if someone’s account is hijacked, someone from Bulgaria sells 50 laptop computers for $100 each, and disappears with the money. Are you going to guarantee those purchases to legitimate buyers?"
My response: The answer is absolutely YES!!! We stand behind our service, and managing the security and integrity of our program is our responsibility – not the buyers. A buyer will never have to worry about whether buySAFE or The Hartford will meet our responsibilities to the community. To put this into perspective, The Hartford was one of the nation’s most trusted companies for 50 years before Abraham Lincoln became one of its customers. It is that long-standing reputation and commitment to consumers that is “on the line” with each seller that is bonded by The Hartford, and with each buyer that purchases from a seller displaying the buySAFE Seal.
SORRY FOR THE LENGTHY RESPONSE AGAIN!! I promise to work on saying less!
posted on January 27, 2004 10:01:50 AM new
Sounds like it could be good for a big seller, or one that sells high priced items. I dont think its 'invasive' per se, because anything that involves bonding is going to require a SS#.
If you could find a way to work in bonding the buyer and protect the seller (as many are lamenenting Paypal seller protection is null) well, that way would be service I am sure many would opt in to!!
posted on January 27, 2004 10:23:21 AM new
Good sellers usually have a percentage of good feedback to reflect that. I work hard and am honest and don't need another icon to assure my buyers.
Sales pitches like this try to put pressure on ALL of us to sign up otherwise we may not look legit or honest like the other sellers that are members of buySafe.
Most buyers that have been around for awhile know what to check out before buying. Newbies wouldn't even know about buySafe unless someone had informed them before they started bidding.
Does the average seller need to sign up for this and pay for it? NO.
posted on January 27, 2004 10:46:11 AM new
I agre with Tessa, the high price item seller may want this service.
The escrow services are the major competition?
-------------- sig file ----------- *There is no conclusive evidence that life is serious*
posted on January 27, 2004 01:54:43 PM new
The problem has been defined, and an answer provided. But...........
What assurance do you have that their database won't be hacked? There is an information logistics supply line here that is frightening; eBay, buySAFE, Hartford, your financial institution, and let's throw in Vendio. The weakest link can be your downfall. And although Hartford has deep pockets, how far can a few hacked accounts reach before they see the writing on the wall and pull the plug?
posted on January 27, 2004 04:55:07 PM new
nannitque, boy that was back THEN.
Do you know in the State of Virginia they just a few years ago allowed you to opt out to have a seperate number for your drivers license? Used to be your social by default. So let's see, go to the grocery store, write a check. They have your name, address, phone, SS, signature, and bank account - what could more disclosing? Yet I dont think in they've (the state) have suffered any more or less ID fraud than anywhere else.
posted on January 31, 2004 05:44:53 PM new
Is there a reason why erthlng doesn't identify the site they are affiliated with when they come to the boards here?
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