posted on March 18, 2004 10:43:05 AM new
passedtothepresent,
I agree whole heartedly with you, as both a bidder and a seller. Very well stated.
I would refuse to bid on auctions that state that they don't allow snipe bids. And I don't get upset if someone else is willing to pay more than I am. I DO bid the highest I will conceivably pay.
Lately, I have even started bidding a few items up early on, one dollar at a time, that I want, but not real bad, and giggle as the price keeps climbing. Usually, I am bidding against some inexperienced bidder with low feedback who did not put the highest price they will pay in a proxy bid. If I see the competing bidder has a high feedback, I won't do that since I know they will snipe at the end if I try to battle it out. Sure, if I win I will honor my bid. But I know what the item usually sells for and how much I'm willing to spend. If I am the highest bidder, yes I will pay as soon as the auction ends. If an item is one that I want real bad, I will only snipe.
I am retired and snipe "by hand" with high-speed connection in the last 10 seconds. I was going to sign up for a sniping program, but balked at giving them my Ebay password. I was not reassured that their security was sufficient to keep all employees from accessing my info. Just one more avenue for geeting you account hijacked - just my opinion.
I win most auctions I snipe, and I bid high. If I don't win, I don't take it personally. No insults intended, but I figure that those who do take it personally and want sniping stopped are the same ones who want laws made to "make life fair"!
posted on March 18, 2004 01:11:31 PM new
If thepriest has some kind of 'snipe blocking program' I take that to mean it stops the snipe programs that people use. But what about manually sniping at the last minute. What if I bid my highest at 30 seconds or less, manually, would you somehow cancel my bid, and sell it to the bidder who had his bid in longer???
This makes no sense, the only way these day I get any bids are the ones that bid the last day, hour or few minutes!
__________________________________
"Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known."- Carl Sagan
posted on March 18, 2004 01:17:52 PM new
Hi NeartheSea...thanks for your note.
No...the eBay proxy bids or the last second manual bids are note blocked.
The snipe programs work off of a ping...when the user registers to snipe an auction, the snipe program first 'pings' or verifies the location of the auction. This program simply blocks various snipe programs.
An earlier poster noted some language for how to use the eBay proxy...a nice suggestion.
So, we're trying that also.
thanks
posted on March 18, 2004 05:55:25 PM new
From a technical point of view, how are you able to interfere with and prevent someone’s bid in an ebay auction?
After I place my snipe, could I use your software to prevent others from placing theirs?
Does ebay know of and condone this?
You’re either living in a dream or there’s some serious hacking going on.
Forget all that, how much for your software? Would small unmarked bills be OK?
posted on March 18, 2004 07:10:05 PM new
Following is the random ramblings of a confirmed sniper.
Sorry but I can't be too impressed with vague statements about increases in bidding. By what percent has the bidding and prices increased? How do you know that the prices would not be even higher if you had let the snipers enter the mix? I know that in a small specialized area where I bid there are three of us who always snipe for the rare items and we all bid very high. The other two bid higher than me so my only chance is to find things they have not. I am not going to give this away by bidding early. Some of these auctions go for amounts that must cause some the sellers to faint. Would we bid more if we had to bid early? No. As long as eBay allows bids until the closing moment of the auction it is no business of the sellers when I chose to bid.
Do I understand that you are not blocking manual snipes but only sniping programs? If so you are not really stopping sniping and the effect of your "no snipe" campaign is very suspect.
When I was a newbie I bid the moment I saw something I wanted and checked on it twice a day to be sure I was still high bidder. The first time I watched an auction end and saw a new bidder appear out of nowhere and "steal my item" I was shocked but I read the boards and I learned fast. When I discovered that I could check the current bids of the people who bid against me and find items they had discovered I realized that they were doing the same thing to me. From that day I was a sniper. What sellers need is competition. In an auction one person willing to spend big bucks does not do any good. You need a pool of willing bidders and trying to defeat the snipers only cuts down on that pool.
Who says how late is a snipe? Half an hour, ten minutes, one minute? I use a snip program when I can't be a my computer. How is that different from my clicking the mouse at 3 seconds and hope I make a connection? The snipe program just assures more successful connections than manual sniping does. This helps your bids and prices how?
And another thing.... My goodness I do go on and on. I can feel your eyes glazing over so I will end my ramble.
Good luck however you wish to conduct your acutions.
-----o----o----o----o----o----o----o----o
“The illiterate of the future will be the person ignorant of the use of the camera as well as of the pen.”
Maholy-Nagy, Vision in Motion, 1947
posted on March 18, 2004 09:48:29 PM new
Meadowlark: Anyone such as Vendio who is an intermediary with us for ebay related services will need our ebay ID and password to do business with ebay on our behalf. If these 2 things below would tempt you to try a sniping service free trial I'll email you which one I use that also has excellent security (I think we are not to mention specific businesses by name on the board, right?)
1) Not only do I not have to be at the computer, but until the time lock (5 min for my program) if I want to follow an auction I can set and change and delete bids as often as I like, add items, remove items, and track them all at a glance--none of it registers at ebay. Best part is I don't pay anything if I don't win (penny per dollar won).
2) Better yet, if there is already a proxy in place higher than my snipe (regular or just sniped in before mine) when my snipe comes due my bid is not placed, my id never appears in the bidding history, and no one knows I was around. With manual ebay snipes every bid registers--every bid you attempt can be tracked by your competitors. That amount of extra bidding privacy and convenience is worth the risk to me of giving them my ebay info.
You could compete with your cutthroat high rollers and if they were already higher than you they wouldn't even know you were around bidding for the item, or have as much info to nail down your bidding patterns to better bid against you in the future. They would only know if you won, or if your snipe lost but was placed before the winning bid or snipe or proxy. If it is a really rare or expensive item and you worry about trusting the servers, there is nothing to say you couldn't both set an advance snipe and manually snipe in the last 10 seconds as well-- that is only the equivalent of any bidder placing two sequential bids on the same auction. If either the servers fail or your connection doesn't go through you still have a bid in.
posted on March 18, 2004 10:12:03 PM new
While you can't actually lose an auction if you bid the highest amount you're willing to pay, this opens you up to shill bidding.
posted on March 18, 2004 11:42:51 PM new
A proxy bid is a defacto snipe.
It is not adequately explained by eBay but then, this is consistent with most everything they do. Those that read, watch and learn benefit from a clearer understanding of the game..those that don't weep and gnash their teeth in the darkness.
The argument that snipers, by not being a visible component of the bidding process, somehow depress the final price requires a lot more than the anecdotal experience / evidence (no matter how well documented)of any particular seller, no matter the category.The only extant comprehensive data for analysis rests with eBay and they ain't talking...at least to us.
The eBay market and its participants are evolving ( some with feathers, others fins). Slugging it out over the course of days is inefficient.Enough bidders have learned to hold off until near auction's end because such behavior is apparently rewarded.
Apart from the underlying asset being contested, the most important aspect of the selling process is time & urgency. Sniping tools evolved because they are competitively efficient and are successful as automatic buying agents.
All mercantile and commodity markets employ similar (though much more sophisticated) robot agents.
"I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."- John Wayne/The Shootist"(from the novel by Glendon Swarthout)
[ edited by pandorasbox on Mar 18, 2004 11:43 PM ]
posted on March 19, 2004 05:07:19 AM new
Hi...thanks for all the input.
Didn't realize this would cause a bit of an uproar.
The program we use is available on the web...found it by searching on Google.
By the way, I'm not suggesting or even encouraging others to use it.
Just offering an insight into what we do.
Thanks for the insights
nyc
posted on March 19, 2004 06:17:04 AM new
passedtothepresent,
You raise issues I had not thought of. I can see that someone who is bidding for highly sought collectibles or rare/expensive/highly sought items would definitely want to hide their bidding activity from competitors. I'm not bidding on those sorts of things where I would be concerned about someone knowing I was bidding against them. I don't collect anything or seek rare/expensive items where I would be up against the same competition repeatedly.
I read much about Vendio's reputation here before using their servcies and trust them with my Ebay password. I had had no apparent way of determining if a sniper service could be trusted. I'm mostly bidding on moderately to low priced items, so in the name of economy, I didn't want to pay yet more for a service that I didn't really need.
I am retired and set my kitchen timer to go off a few minutes before an auction ends. I bid on 2 to 10 items per week, but all of it is just "stuff" I want or need - housewares, fabric, clothing, kitchen stuff, more.
I can tell you are likely a more "serious" sniper for higher-dollar goods.
But thanks for the food for thought. I am mildly interested in the name of the sniping service you refer to though.
I don't want to post my usual email in an open forum. You can send to my "throw-away" address: [email protected]
posted on March 19, 2004 07:50:25 AM new
Let's get back on point.
To put a spreadsheet here would not only be confusing but also probably contains info not for public viewing.
Not stupid but silly. Someone makes what many here believe is non-intuitive claim, says his analysis is too confusing to present, and we jump on it emotionally as if it represents reality.
The only thing I am certain of here is that our perceptions are our realities. Thepriest, I know you believe what you claim (anyone can interpret data any way they want). If you can’t explain something clearly though – especially in general terms, you probably don’t understand it yourself.
Thus, all you have really accomplished here is to defy credulity.
posted on March 19, 2004 02:44:10 PM new
photosensitive: Thank you for the complement. I see the comments I addressed to meadowlark earlier were really closer to your situation. In a limited market of unique very expensive items, 3 or 4 knowledgeable high rollers is a really difficult situation to win in. A standard auction cannot be won like that, because no one can compete with a floating ending time when even one bidder is someone with unlimited money (unless that's you). But all the reasons non-snipers complain about sniping and fixed auction ending times is the very setup that opens a door for a chance by those with less money. That observation tucked away in an earlier comment here was really excellent and got sort of passed over.
There is a strategy for winning auctions like yours but in all fairness to thepriest this wasn't started as a snipers or pro-snipers thread. Email me at [email protected] if you would like me to share it with you. It makes my day to see someone win when they haven't had much luck before, especially if it is a high stakes win done with no risk.
posted on March 19, 2004 03:33:24 PM new
About bidding on high-end items: A couple of years ago a friend who lived in another state asked me to bid and win (sniping if necessary) on some high-end English procelain she collects. She said there were three or four collectors who followed each other around on Ebay, bidding on what each other was bidding on, etc., and she wanted to bid and win without their knowing she was the one interested.
She told me her top dollar amount, and I did that for her; I sniped manually, sometimes with only a second remaining, and won a few items for her. Spent 'way more than I would ever spend on a collectible, let me say! It's fun spending other people's money.
And that experience opened my eyes to the other world of collectibles--the dog-eat-dog of high-end collectible auctions. Very illuminating.
___________________________________
Have you noticed since everyone has a Camcorder these days no one talks
about seeing UFOs like they used to?
posted on March 21, 2004 05:02:24 AM new
Hi Passedtothe present - yes, this post didn't start to advocate one way or the other.
What brought it about came from a small meeting of eBay sellers here in the city. There's a few of us that meet regularly...and like this board there are pros and cons.
And as Kiara said, we haven't used it through the summer months. We shut down in August anyway and head out of town. And the summer is different.
Many thanks to all those who offered a thoughtful insight.
posted on March 21, 2004 03:37:49 PM new
I just figured out who thepriest is. It is really nycyn who last year was boasting about shill bidding. Now we know why she wants early proxy bids. So she can unfairly run up the price of the auction. Here is a prime example of why snipe bidding is needed. To protect the buyers.
posted on March 21, 2004 04:12:10 PM new
Hi...stonecold...don't know her...but know who you mean...and, no...we don't shill or cheat...and I'm a he not a she.
Brooklyn...I don't think the buyer has to put into their watch file...
posted on March 21, 2004 04:19:13 PM new
I am a busy seller, both on eBay, but more so on our own web sites.
IF I had to try to remember, or be bothered with going to eBay at the end of any auction to bid, I just wouldn't bid, I don't have the time, nor do I remember when such are ending.
I don't like to use the Proxy bid and I won't use it. Such still requires that I pay some attention to the auction and I don't have the time.
I am sure there are MANY, MANY other busy folks, who if they couldn't use a Snipe Program, just wouldn't bit at all.
As a seller, I don't care how someone buys, just that they buy.
I can go to the WWW and buy most of what is on eBay, and if I am forced to give up SNIPE that is what I will do.
I've been on eBay since 1996 - the ridiculous high prices we use to get, when eBay was young are basically over, get a life and learn to price your products at reasonable prices so they will sell and then be happy when they do.
posted on March 21, 2004 04:26:59 PM new
Hi JW...good point...we've been on ebay since 1998...and now have three sites...days were better then...as mentioned this is an idea...just because we use it...doesn't mean everyone should.
nyc
posted on March 21, 2004 08:44:15 PM new
brooklynpubliccouture: A sniper is no different than any other bidder and the bid is no different once it is placed--it is just placed in the last seconds of the auction. The prospective bidder follows or tracks the auction any way a regular bidder does, with or without a bidder's watching program like vendio (=part why it was originally named AuctionWatch). The bid is placed manually by the bidder just like any other ebay bid, or by using submission servers to submit the bid on their behalf. Sellers have no more access to a sniper than they do to any regular bidder before a bid is placed.
Sellers do not control buyers' activities. Sellers do not have control over what programs their bidders/auction visitors have running on their computers to access ebay with. Sellers do not have access to whether or not a visitor to their listing will become a prospective bidder of any kind. Sellers do not control the ebay software handling of bids that are placed.
Sellers can discourage sniped bids by randomly ending their auctions early or cancelling late bids as part of their terms of service, but until a bid is placed there is no information available to sellers about what a site visitor will do in the future. Sellers cannot block bids submitted to ebay before the end of the auction from being placed. They can only block specific bidder IDs for just cause, or cancel bids once placed.
I have assumed that thepriest's discussion here involved instead a discussion about whether or not ebay should institute a block to snipers in the future for sellers who desire it. Bids don't go directly to sellers. It would have to be ebay software that rejected a bidding signal from specific kinds of servers or IP addresses. Until that happens or ebay changes its rules (that is, as long as ebay permits all bids that are placed before the close of an auction to stand) it is in breach of ebay good faith rules to deny bids based on time of submission alone as long as: a)the bid is logged in before the ebay clock registers the auction as over, b)it is a real bid placed with the intention of winning, c)the winner's post-auction behavior is that of a good customer, completing all their ebay obligations, and d) the winner pays for the item.
posted on March 21, 2004 09:28:40 PM new
Personally, I feel the bottom line is if Thepriest is using any kind of program that blocks a legitimate bidder from bidding, it would be viewed as auction interference for which he should be suspended. It could conceivably be seen as site operation interference which could get him barred for life. At the very least, if the potential highest bid is blocked, it is depriving Ebay of additional FVF revenue which is a firing squad offense as far as Ebay is concerned. If I were the OP, I would seriously consider the consequences of using third party software that prevents bidders from bidding. However cute you think your theory is, you need to remember that Ebay owns this playground, they make the rules, and they collect the admission price at the gate. You don't want to get them pissed off if you have any thought of making a profit in mind.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
