posted on May 17, 2004 03:59:31 PM new
I just want to set the record straight; I work for the Postal Service and know that parcels insured for $50 or more does NOT require a signature by the recipient. It is only scanned upon delivery by the carrier whether it is left in their mailbox or at their front door.
Also, the Postmaster in your local office (in my humble opinion) is not running a tight ship if he/she allows that DC parcels be scanned only when his office receives the parcel and not when it is actually delivered to the recipient. Bad!
[ edited by joefont on May 17, 2004 04:09 PM ]
posted on May 17, 2004 06:02:40 PM new
joefont--------
*This is from the USPS website.
For an insurance value of over $50 on domestic shipments or any international value, a numbered blue receipt is issued.
Items with insurance value over $50 (domestic or any international value) must be signed for at delivery (the delivery office maintains a delivery record for these insured items)
The package should be scanned twice at it's destination. At the time delivered to the facility and at the mailbox...This is not up to my local postmaster it is the postmaster at the receiving facility.
If my buyer can't afford or doesn't want to pay for insurance just to scam me they have a rude awakening when they receive an insured package that I insured. I can afford the insurance I can't afford a chargeback. I am sure most will agree...
posted on May 17, 2004 09:07:18 PM new
If you look at the 3813 form (for +$50 insurance), there is no space for the recipient or anyone else to sign. A signature is only required if you also utilize (for an additional fee) Restricted Delivery or Return Receipt. I deliver these all the time without obtaining a signature; I only scan it at the recipient's mailbox.
posted on May 18, 2004 05:09:08 AM new
Also, the Postmaster in your local office (in my humble opinion) is not running a tight ship if he/she allows that DC parcels be scanned only when his office receives the parcel and not when it is actually delivered to the recipient. Bad!
posted on May 18, 2004 05:17:51 AM new
joefont,
when you said you scanned at the recipient mail box.what data is being captured by your scanner??
can your scanner captured the address of the mailbox,how so??
my rural mail carrier scanned at my door,what is being captured -my address or just XXX post office station??
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 07:32:10 AM new
When you mail a parcel with DC, the clerk attaches the barcode of the DC form with the city, state and zipcode of the recipient in the computer. So when the carrier delivers the parcel, he scans the barcode and tags it as "Delivered". That data is downloaded into the main computer when the carrier returns to the office. However, "Delivery Confirmation" is somewhat deceiving; it only confirms the date, time & city of the delivery, not the specific address.
For instance, I recently sent a Priority letter with DC, and when I checked it's status, this is what it reported:
-Your item was delivered at 10:50 am on May 14, 2004 in PORTSMOUTH, NH 03801-
No mention of the address because the mailing clerk doesn't enter it.
------------------------------
joefont,
when you said you scanned at the recipient mail box.what data is being captured by your scanner??
can your scanner captured the address of the mailbox,how so??
my rural mail carrier scanned at my door,what is being captured -my address or just XXX post office station??
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 07:58:30 AM new
so it makes no difference if the package is scanned at destination post office or mail box or home residence.it will all show city,state and zip which covers a big area.
The DC is worthless for fighting chargeback if you have a merchant account,it is only good for paypal seller protection or just to please the customer so he knows you have shipped the item.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 08:16:33 AM new
Not necessarily!
Here's a portion of PayPal's policy regarding chargebacks:
* Always keep proof that you did indeed honor the payment and made the shipment to the address on the Transaction Details page. You will be required to provide a copy of this shipment record in cases of disputes. The tracking documentation must show that you shipped to the address on the Transaction Details page *
The receipt portion of your Delivery Confirmation form requires you (the sender) to fill in the recipient's address. The mailing clerk will not postmark the receipt until this is done. This proves that you did indeed initiate shipment to that address because the clerk's postmark confirms it. If you reread PayPal's policy above, it states that the tracking documention (your DC receipt) must show that you "shipped" the item to the address. It doesn't ask for proof that it was actually delivered to the recipient. Keep in mind that the address on the DC receipt MUST match the address on PayPal's Transaction Details page if you want to prevent a chargeback.
--------------------------------------------
The DC is worthless for fighting chargeback if you have a merchant account....
posted on May 18, 2004 08:52:57 AM new
postal clerk does not compare the address i entered on the DC slip with the address on the package,i can put anything on the slip.
when customer files a complaint with paypal,paypal will ask the seller to submit the dc tracking number as proof of delivery,and if it shows it has been scanned at destination post office with the zipcode of the buyer address,paypal is satisfied.
nowhere does paypal asks to see the physical slip,all they want is the tracking number.
can you imagine the indians in india trying to decipher your handwriting on that dc slip you faxed to India??
Accepting payment thru paypal is not the same as having your own merchant account.
With a merchant account,you deal with the customer credit card issuer thru your merchant account provider and that DC is not acceptable as proof of delivery,no where does it provide proof it has been received by the customer.
I know many sellers on this board get the e-dc free when they ship usps priority .
In my opinion,for those who pay 45 -55 cents for that dc ,it is overpriced for what it has to offer.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
I have seen a lot of Postal Service employees that didn't know what they were talking about so saying you work for USPS proves nothing.
USPS always requires a signature when a package is insured over $50 here. They don't sign the blue form, that would be pointless since it stays on the package. They have to use one of the orange cards and manually print the entire address on it then make me print and sign my name. They never have left a package with the blue insurance barcode on it wthout a signature.
I think you should check on it to make sure you are doing it correct.
posted on May 18, 2004 09:24:55 AM new
i hope joe is not out there delivering our insured packages !!
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 11:47:05 AM new
Evidently this is the proper way to scan the packages and most post offices don't do it. To find out what previously happens you have to click at the USPS tracking and it is the link that says something about previous transactions.
His was scanned at the facility. It seems like it never left the post office.
This is one of my transactions.....
Your item was delivered at 3:39 pm on May 10, 2004 in PANAMA CITY, FL 32401.
Here is what happened earlier:
ARRIVAL AT UNIT, May 10, 2004, 6:31 am, PANAMA CITY, FL 32401
ELECTRONIC SHIPPING INFO RECEIVED, May 05, 2004
posted on May 18, 2004 11:54:10 AM new
ARRIVAL AT UNIT.
what is UNIT???
see,in a chargeback,this means nothing.
Paypal accepts it,thats because paypal is willing to eat the loss.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 04:12:59 PM new
To put and end to this dispute, the following is from PayPal's chargeback policy:
"Retain reasonable proof-of-shipment that can be tracked online
Always keep proof that you did indeed honor the payment and made the shipment to the address on the Transaction Details page. You will be required to provide a copy of this shipment record in cases of disputes. The tracking documentation must show that you shipped to the address on the Transaction Details page. For items equal to $250.00 USD (or the equivalent in the currency of the transaction) or more in value, the seller also needs to provide an online proof-of-receipt in the form of a signature from the recipient. Many carrier companies offer these proof-of-delivery services."
Guess what? She doesn't have mine or my wife's siganature on anything.
posted on May 18, 2004 04:21:20 PM new
I not only filed a chargeback with PayPal but with my credit card as well. The chargeback is what blew her lid and started this thread!
posted on May 18, 2004 04:45:53 PM new
I think you just foo'd yourself, good buddy. PayPal gets pay-p*ssed when you file a chargeback through your credit card company without going through them first.
posted on May 18, 2004 04:47:12 PM new
wonder if we will ever find out what really happens??
she sells for oldies who may be sick and disabled,what if after she listed the item and they went into old folks home/hospital or died and the estate would not let her retrieve anything??
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 05:00:02 PM new
"PayPal Case ID:
xx-xxx-xxx-xxx
Reason for Dispute:
Non-Receipt
Date of Complaint:
May 4, 2004
Status:
Reviewing Seller's Response
Status Details:
The seller has responded to our initial inquiry about this transaction.
In response to your claim, the seller has provided the following information indicating that the item was shipped.
We have also forwarded this information to you in an email.
If your claim has been resolved, you may cancel it at this time. If you choose not to cancel your claim, we will resume our investigation in five days (on May 22, 2004)."
This is WHY I filed with my credit card company. Two weeks and all they can come up with is a delivery confirmation number? The package has not appeared. They don't have an electronic signature per THEIR policy. Now they are going to wait five more days to continue? I have a statute of limitation on when I can file with my CC company as well so I'll let them hash it out.
Bottom line, I never got the package and they have no proof it was delivered, only that it arrived in my city.
posted on May 18, 2004 05:11:51 PM new
the fact that the seller gets so emotional and never mention insurance is a sign all is not well.
If she has insured the package,all she has to do is wait a few hours and go to the post office to have it traced instead of yelling on the phone at 3 am.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 18, 2004 06:52:26 PM new
Hello bbk[oops i mispeled your name-sorry]
you said:
"Bottom line, I never got the package and they have no proof it was delivered, only that it arrived in my city."
---------------
THE FEDERAL TRUTH IN LENDING ACT
http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1650.html#6500226.13
------------------
from ppg 226.12
(1) General rule. When a person who honors a credit card fails to resolve satisfactorily a dispute as to property or services purchased with the credit card in a consumer credit transaction, the cardholder may assert against the card issuer all claims (other than tort claims) and defenses arising out of the transaction and relating to the failure to resolve the dispute. The cardholder may withhold payment up to the amount of credit outstanding for the property or services that gave rise to the dispute and any finance or other charges imposed on that amount.{25}
_________________________________________________________________________________
{31 If a consumer submits a billing error notice alleging either the nondelivery of property or services under paragraph (a)(3) of this section or that information appearing on a periodic statement is incorrect because a person honoring the consumer's credit card has made an incorrect report to the card issuer, the creditor shall not deny the assertion unless it conducts a reasonable investigation and determines that the property or services were actually delivered, mailed, or sent as agreed or that the information was correct.}
-------------------
a creditor determines that no billing error occurred or that a different billing error occurred from that asserted, the creditor shall within the time limits in paragraph (c)(2) of this section:
(1) Mail or deliver to the consumer an explanation that sets forth the reasons for the creditor's belief that the billing error alleged by the consumer is incorrect in whole or in part;
-------------------------------------------
I C/PASTED these paragraphs because they give rise to your rights as a consumer. my only suggestion is to document this problem with YOUR credit carrier, not paypal...as far as risking ppal's ire...read this law - then you make the decision.
--------------
finally, when i read your thread RE: info/status from ppal, it is a reflection of the kind of customer service that some[including me] bi**h about... conversely, when i have had claims against creditors; my visa, aex have never failed to champion my cause-and a couple in vain...i guess, in my opinion, i dont read any loyalty in ppal's "report" to you - and probably shouldnt because they are representing both seller and buyer.
---------------------------------------------
when i re-read your thread i see you have contacted your c/card carrier..BRAVO.
---------------------------
and gooooooooooood luck
myoldtoy
posted on May 18, 2004 08:18:02 PM new
I guess I don't understand your seller. If she didn't insure the package why doesn't she come clean about it. If she insured it then she needs to proceed with the insurance claim. I imagine you have proof that you insured your package as that should be a given because of the price you paid. I think it is time you find yourself a lawyer if PayPal or your CC company won't do anything. Do you have a lawer friend? All that seller to do is say Yes I did insure, No I didn't and proceed from there but evidently your seller doesn't know the difference between insured and not insured. Or a better senerio she doesn't want to refund as she has probably paid her contact and she doesn't have the funds. She is protesting to much and as you think she didn't insure.
posted on May 18, 2004 08:42:42 PM new
All a lawyer can do is help him get his money, for a fee. He can do that himself with his credit card company. I think the time is approaching when he needs to file a mail fraud complaint and get the Postal Inspectors involved. One visit to the seller's house and they can probably have all the answers in less than 15 minutes. It'll boil down to 2 possible scenarios : Either the buyer gets screwed for $500.00+ or the seller gets a chance to be Martha Stewart's roomie in a Federal Prison.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on May 18, 2004 08:47:35 PM new
Libra: you right...it would seem that first move the seller would make: provide proof of delivery...she has done that...now the question becomes why no proof of insurance -it would seem she would make certain that paypal had evidence of insurance...in the post i made earlier, subppgh31 addresses actual delivery...to me, it would seem that this is where the seller's case goes lame...
---------
and she probably is lurking here..
-----------------
i can think of another scenario[s]...after holding the package for 10-15 days, the post office returns to sender with no further notice... if not insured, and was scanned because of a d.c. label, when seller gets mdse back-MAYBE it was scanned... could the seller then have a windfall?
---------------------------
...and another could be that both seller/buyer are victim of circumstances...circumstances of a lost package, or not picked up, or returned to sender, and lost enroute by post office...
-------
remember the seinfeld, in which mail was held by carrier in his basement, because didnt have time to deliver - or something like that...
posted on May 18, 2004 08:56:00 PM new
Thanks myoldtoy. I have actually spoken with the FTC in the past and am pretty well versed with the requirements. I had a buyer a couple of years ago that was probably this seller's brother. Package got lost apparently, he accused me of fraud and ranted and raved. My TOS required that claims be filed and processed with shipping agent before refunding to protect myself. He wanted to skip all that and give him an instant refund after 1 week of paying.I acquainted myself with the FTC rules then.
I have also reviewed PayPal's buyer protection policy and it only covers me up to $500.00 so I would probably be still on the hook for $39.39. You guys are right PayPal is no better than the company that owns them. They still haven't credited me anything and are dragging their feet. God only knows what that Witch with a capital C told them.
On the brighter note, my CC company has already credited my account for they full amount while they investigate. I am well experienced in dealing with CC companies and am confident that they will not be able to validate the charge with no proof of delivery. The DC slip only proves she sent SOMETHING to me and without the physical package we don't what it is.
posted on May 18, 2004 10:23:53 PM newIf you look at the 3813 form (for +$50 insurance), there is no space for the recipient or anyone else to sign. A signature is only required if you also utilize (for an additional fee) Restricted Delivery or Return Receipt.
Right then wrong. It is true that there in no where to sign on the insurance form. But that is not the form you sign. When your highly insured package goes out for delivery, the PO writes up a brown signature confirmation slip. That is the same one as if they tried to deliver a package and you weren't around and states you can pick up the package after XX time. This; is the slip that will be needed to sign by the recipient.
[ edited by stonecold613 on May 19, 2004 01:17 PM ]
posted on May 19, 2004 05:02:39 AM new
If your credit card issuer has credited you in full,it means the chargeback procedure has begun.
Paypal would notify the seller to gather all the paperwork to prove she has shipped the item,if all she can come up with is the DC,she is going to lose.
In the meantime while paypal is waiting for her to gather the paperwork and forward to your cc issuer,her account may be restricted in whole or part.
If she has 500 balance,it will be restricted,if she has less than 500,they will restrict outflow of fund but allow new payment to come in.
will they unrestrict her account when that 500 dollars is reached and allow her to tap any fund over 500??it depends on what she sells,with electronic seller who sells large volume and rely on dropshipping,they may spell a bad rat,it is the cockroach theory-you see one cockroach and you figure there must be more.
they could figure there will be more chargeback coming,figure if you fail to dropship one laptop,you probably have problem with your dropshipper!!
If she does not have 500 in her paypal account,depends on when she signs up for paypal,paypal will be able to access her bank account for that 500 dollars.
Unless she does not intend to use paypal in the future,it is better for her to let paypal have that 500 dollars and be on good terms with paypal.
as for you,paypal would not be crediting your account for up to 500 dollars as you have already been reimbursed by your cc issuer.
everybody has a nice day!!!
[ edited by stopwhining on May 19, 2004 07:18 AM ]
