posted on July 27, 2004 04:18:07 PM new
For those who know the Fed Ex Ground Tariff by heart or have bothered to read it all, this may be old news.
With many thousands of tranactions via Ebay under my belt, most problems that pop up via online selling have been encountered before, so aren't surprising. I sell a wide variety of items both large and small, heavy and light. All would be considered old,used, antique,or collectible items. For items approaching 5 lbs or heavier and aren't Media items, I usually use Fed Ex Ground, the drop off is close, I print out the labels at home, and generally they much cheaper than the USPS for heavier items, and slighlty less expensive than UPS.
Before filling out the forms and printing the the labels at home, I used to go and take my packages to their location and fill out the forms by hand. This has a point.
Recently, I sold on Ebay a large and heavy item for in excess of $400. It was an old Gas Station sign. This sort of thing regularly generates winning bids of around $400, so it wasn't a freak occurence. I arranged to send the item to the buyer using Fed Ex Ground. I filled out the form as usual and dropped off the package with Fed Ex. When boxed the package dimensions were 45"x43"x7" and weighed about 40 lbs. A very large package.
Perhaps, 10 days later, the buyer inquires about the whereabouts of his item. This is my first inkling that something is wrong. To cut to the chase, the item along it's route was scanned and placed on a truck at one location headed to the next hub, and disappeared. Never arrived. Stolen.
After a couple of weeks of looking, the best Fed Ex can tell me is what I just told you, it has disappeared. Well, as you can guess, my first question is how can a package of such size and weight simply disappear, but beyond what I thought, I had to deal with the reality. I have a unhappy buyer and the shipping agent that has told me that the package has vanished and to file a claim.
No worries, right? For I have purchased full insurance ! Wrong ! For those who sell online and use UPS and Fed Ex, Fed Ex Ground, or whatever Read your User Guides ! This was a very painful lesson, as I refunded the buyer his full payment of nearly 500 dollars inlcuding shipping, and Fed Ex Ground only reimbursed me $100 plus the shipping charge. Since I worked in barter for the Item sold, and wasn't going to get Vendio or Ebay selling costs refunded, and nice profit turned out to be a big loss.
I know, I am technically at fault for my gripe, but nonetheless, for years when I paid and filled out the value of items sent via Fed Ex Ground, I was never informed nor did I know the fine print of their rules regarding insurance and claims. I only got the User's Guide upon opening my online account with Fed Ex. The way Fed Ex Ground, has their claim rules constructed, essentially anything second hand that is an antique, collectible, speculative in terms of worth...will only be elibible for $100 MAX claim. Forget that you can prove that Jane Doe gave you 400 bucks and that any particular item is always worth 400 bucks. It doesn't matter. Nevermind, that in years of dealing with your friendly Counter associate and paying insurance costs to cover expensive items, they never mentioned that you would only be eligible for 100 bucks, if damaged or stolen.
Essentially,I write this to inform. As I worked my way through this claim process, and sent the buyer his money back, I continued to think that it was only a matter of time until the Fed Ex Claim check would come in and my loss would be limited. Fed Ex resolved the matter quickly, but my first knowledge that I would be getting back pennies on the dollar for my claim was when I opened the letter with the claim check, and saw the measly compensation of $100, plus the shipping. Up until that point, not one of the many Fed Ex employees (and there were many calls) mentioned that my claim would only be eligible for $100 bucks,no matter that I had provided ample proof of the item's worth.
My experiences with Fed Ex to this point had been good, a couple of broken inexpensive items. Nothing ever disappeared or had been stolen. In fact, I was under the impression that Fed Ex and UPS, had a major leg up on the USPS in terms of tracking and not losing items. If a package containing a Gas Station sign like mine can simply vanish, anything can. Remember, we aren't talking about some subjective assessment of damage, debating how well an item was packed, or the condition of arrival versus condition when shipped. My item was scanned in one location and never arrived at the next! I now have to inform customers who may choose Fed Ex Ground, that their item will only be covered to $100.00 no matter what, and that I won't be making up any difference or compensate above that amount in case of loss or damage. This was a painful financial loss, of which I didn't have any control, but still got left holding the bag. Even if I had known the small print, my experience was such that if I packed an item extremely well to avoid damage, such matters would never be an issue. I never contemplated a stolen item.
I am guessing that UPS Grounds claim policies are similar? And I suppose the USPS Ground shipping with insurance, while expensive, may have more merit now in my eyes. Anyway, there you have it for what it's worth, a lesson learned for me.
There's a field in the FedEx Ship Manager (or whatever it's called) screen where you fill in the value of the shipment. If the value you put in is more than $100 there's a small charge for insurance up to that value.
posted on July 27, 2004 04:44:36 PM new
Take the first $100.00 free coverage that FedEx offers and insure with Upic for anything above that. FedEx does not offer insurance. It is called "carrier's assumption of liability" and thus is governed by the terms of their tariff, not by the terms of an insurance policy, since there is no insurance policy issued and no insurance company involved. You're lucky the sign was not an illuminated one. They wouldn't have paid a dime, since they don't assume any liability for anything with a neon, fluorescent or incadescent light source in it.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on July 27, 2004 04:56:15 PM new
Thats my point. I Insured to the full value, $432.00, while filling out shipping info in Ship Manager. It doesn't make any difference, if the items being sold are of the variety mentioned (collectibles), whether they are insured for $100.00 or $1000.00, you could only get $100.00 reimbursed best case scenario. However,they will take your extra money for insurance, no questions asked. So, in essence, for the items I sell, there isn't any purpose in spending an extra penny for insurance above the $100.00 they provide gratis, or for putting down a value above $100. I suppose some may have third party insurance for such items ?
posted on July 27, 2004 05:08:01 PM new
There is an insurance company in america called DSI. even when i do use fedex, i still use DSI INSURANCE. it is cheap.
posted on July 27, 2004 05:24:23 PM new
UPIC will be glad to take your money,but it is not so organised and takes a long time to process your claim.I cant really pinpoint it,but i think these private insurance providers business model has serious flaws,i dont think they collect premium fast enough to pay those claims coming in.
what it boils down to is this-someday they may have a serious liqudity crisis and you may not get paid.
I think both UPS and Fed exp do not like to handle muscial instruments,can anyone verify this??
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 27, 2004 07:15:40 PM new
This is....this is just incredulous! My jaw hit the floor and hasn't come back up yet! I can't believe this! I would think a print out of the auction and what it sold for would be enough for FedEx to file a claim with.
Please don't just accept the $100.00 check for the sake of all of us that ship with FedEx.
I think (I hope!) you have not just reached the right person yet.
There is no way in H*LL that I will pay anything over the $100.00 insurance anymore with them, and FedEx is my preferred ground shipper over 5 lbs. I will call and complain just for the sake of the protest.
Thank you so much for sharing this with us. Who knew? I've been over here on the boards for a while and I've never heard of anything like this.
This just p*sses me off totally. Makes me want to never ship anything with them again just to make a point with them.
Thanks for the input, I will check with the third party insurers mentioned if/when I need to use a Ground carrier again. As for musical instruments, they are certainly among the things mentioned in the Fed Ex Ground tarrif that wouldn't be covered above 100 dollars.
The gentleman has it correct, they don't really offer insurance, when you look at the terms closely, but various liability limits. And as I found out the hard way, it's pretty important to know where you stand in that regard. As for someone on the phone at Fed Ex saying they can offer you extra value insurance, I would be wary of such a claim if it contradicts the terms in the Tarrif. It might depend on the type of items you ship. But, interesting too, I will check into that also. Thanks folks.
posted on July 27, 2004 07:33:43 PM new
Thats right Glassgrl...like you I didn't have a full understanding of how the Fed Ex Ground liability/insurance thing worked, until I got stung. My main point wasn't to strum the tiny violin, but to share, so others might learn. Obviously, others use third party insurers, which makes perfect sense, but I never considered this because I was ignorant and uninformed, and because I thought I was covered...ha !
Trust me, I complained and wrote letters and so on. They wont be making a special exception for me anytime soon. Also, FYI regular Fed Ex air shipments have a liability limit of $500.00 for similar collectible/antique type items.
posted on July 27, 2004 07:44:53 PM new
FedEx is like every other carrier in the United States. They are not geared up to deal with individual shippers. They have their business model set to deal with commercial accounts which have traffic managers who know every word in the tariff and all the supplements by heart. FedEx Ground is designed to deal ONLY with businesses. They set up the Home Delivery division, but it was targeted to businesses who shipped their merchandise to individuals at their homes. Tupperware was their flagship customer. They had no idea that Ebay sellers would discover them. Because of the unique line of the Industry I have been involved in all my life(household goods carrier) in which we were primarily dealing with shippers who did not know the meaning of the word "tariff", the Interstate Commerce Commission found it necessary to institute a supplemental set of consumer protection regulations to cover our industry. Even though the ICC has been sunseted, the rules still exist and are enforced by various other regulatory agencies. Hopefully, FedEx Home Delivery will modify some of their proceedures to inform shippers of their rights and obligations and of the limits of the carriers liability. Until then, it's cavaet emptor when you deal with any general commodities carrier. There are many interesting things in the FedEx Tariffs. Pay particular attention to their money back guarantee. If they fail to deliver by the promised delivery day, they will refund all your shipping charges. The catch is, you have to ask them for it. They won't volunteer it. Tariffs are a two edged sword.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on July 27, 2004 08:35:43 PM new
Well there's an online website for Boycott Fedex that has a few FedEx email addresses. I have emailed those people a letter saying that I will personally never ship anything FedEx again over the $100. claim limit. And I pointed them to this thread as to the reason why.
Truly, this has all the earmarks of a class action lawsuit for all of us that have ever paid the extra fee for anything over the $100 FedEx insurance. Not that I'm going to take action like that but I would certainly join in on it.
I'm truly just stunned.
This reminds me of the Royal Canin dog food that I purchased at Petco in Alabama while we were visiting there. I emailed the store and the pet food makers and while the pet food makers were ready to make good on their out of date dog food that I purchased, I believed that it was Petco's responsiblity. Their customer service (Petco) said sorry there's nothing I can do other than tell you to take the dog food back (right...400 miles one way) and I found the President of Petco's email address and emailed him. I had a Bag of Royal Canin delivered to my house the next day! Overnight UPS. Plus a week later another bag of dog food (ok this was a $30.00 bag of dog food) PLUS I received a gift card in the amount of $30.00. All this from Petco. And the makers of the dog food shipped me a bag.
Which is why I said you evidently haven't reached the right person. Although I'm just taking your word for it here of course.
I personally will NOT ship anything over the $100.00 limit with FedEx from now on. Maybe they don't know how many people ship FedEx with Ebay. If we all stopped paying that extra "fee" that doesn't serve it's purpose then maybe that will speak to FedEx. I think you ought to post your original post over on the Ebay board website and encourage anyone that posts anywhere else to copy your post and maybe between all of us we can change this. This is not right.
I was on the phone with FedEx for at least 20 minutes and spoke with three different people. Like Glassgrl, I was dumbfounded to think the claim limit was $100 even if a higher value had been put into Ship Manager.
So I pressed them pretty hard, which is how come I ended up getting transferred from one to the other.
The issue seemed to be FedEx Ground shipment, as opposed to FedEx Express.
My specific question to them was: "If I send a package FedEx Ground and put $450 declared value in my Ship Manager and FedEx loses the shipment, how much will I be paid?" The answer was $100.
My next question was: "What do I need to do to guarantee I'll be paid $450 if the package is lost or damaged?"
That's when I got transferred again. The last person I talked to told me that, for FedEx Ground, if you want insurance which will pay more than $100 in the case of loss or damage, it has to be set up with FedEx Customer Service.
So that's what I'll do in the future. And I'll be sure to get the full name and extension of the Customer Service person who provides the insurance.
Sorry this happened to you Attiques but thanks for posting.
A while back I got ticked off because Bank of America fiddled around doing a refi on one of my rentals. I got the name of the B of A big gun and wrote a very polite letter outlining my complaints and detailing the extra interest I'd paid waiting on them. It worked. They sent me back the interest plus a HUGE Harry & David fruit basket!
Which has absolutely nothing to do with Attiques problem but, that said, here's some info I copied from the FedEx Investor Relations board.
DANIEL J. SULLIVAN
President, Chief Executive Officer
I couldn't find a direct phone number for Mr. Sullivan but here's what looks to be the corporate headquarters.
FedEx Corporation
942 South Shady Grove Road
Memphis, TN 38120
901.369.3600
posted on July 27, 2004 09:18:59 PM new
ok I'm like Glassgrl on this one ...my jaw has dropped and is still on the floor. You must be one heck of a person atticques00 to take this sitting down. They would of had to call the cops on me cause I would have made a big ugly scene...some guy named Bruno would of had to tote me out the Fedex office . I don't see how they can legally charge a fee for something they don't offer. If you pay the insurance fee they should HAVE to pay the replacement amount with proof of sale price. I'd call like the local news crew and see if you could stir some chit with a nation wide story about how they are ripping people off ... growl it's not even my money and I'm blowing steam !! Thanks for letting people know this atticques00.I'll know from now on not to ship anything over 100.00
posted on July 27, 2004 09:29:34 PM new
Does anybody have any experience with UPS on a similar situation? It looks like they aren't supposed to cover value over $100, too, but has anybody filed on an item over $100 and gotten reimbursement?
In another business (I am new to eBay but ship some from my B&M store) I use FEDEX Ground all the time, shipping about 10 packages a week. I routinely ship over $100 in value and use shipping manager to insure these items, but they are all new and not collectibles.
posted on July 27, 2004 09:30:48 PM new
I so agree Lucy ! Theres gotta be some way to make them pay because they are charging you for this option. If you didn't pay the extra for the insurance then it would be your own fault .
posted on July 27, 2004 09:35:00 PM new
Their limitation of liability for certain items doesn't surprise me. It's common and accepted practice in the transportation industry. It's the fact that the shipper is not informed of the limitation of liability that disturbs me. I'm hoping they will address this flaw in the near future. What really concerns me is that they will accept the fee for excess valuation over $100.00, knowing full well they will not accept liability for loss or damage in excess of $100.00. This is about as close to the definition of fraud as you can get without making an outright accusation. I agree with Glassgrl, this could very well be the basis for a class action lawsuit, and it's something that FedEx needs to address sooner, rather than later. I'm also surprised that their practice of rounding up on weight (7 3/4 lbs being charged as 8 lbs) and on measurements (18 1/4" rounded up to 19" hasn't been challenged. Unless there is a breakpoint involved with a downward sliding scale of rates, this practice is patently illegal, not only under Federal Law, but under regulations of the California Dept. of Weights and Measures as well as their counterparts in every other state. And as for UPS, if they have similar provisions in their tariffs and conduct similar business practices, I hope they realize that there's probably some big law firm in Beverly Hills or San Francisco that has their sights set on them.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on July 27, 2004 10:23:38 PM new
I am going to print this out numerous amounts of times and send this to Various Media folks. Los Angeles, KFI radio talk show hosts will eat this ALIVE! Attorney Bill handle is one and those other two guys,hahahaha,,,,Ken? and ? hahahaa....
This certainly needs some Public awareness. What a RIP OFF of consumers,,,Speaking of consumers,,,,,,Calif Dept of,,,,? Sparkz yer right on, on the weights and measure thing too. There toll free number is on any gas pump I am sure right next to that W/M seal.
Hmmmm, The Los Angeles Times and the Orange County Register too.
Those certainly are BIG boys in the delivery service. Guess they feel they are above any wrong doings. I mean like we're World Wide!
Great but most likely yer based in Cali for nia..
Speaking of cali for nia,,,,,How about the Gov's Office?
posted on July 27, 2004 10:37:20 PM new
Jack...Go for it. A lowly Ebay seller doesn't have access to the CEO of FedEx or UPS, but I betcha there's someone at the L.A. Times that probably has their home phone numbers.
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on July 27, 2004 11:12:55 PM new
All that are following this,,,,,just print it and for .39 send it to people in the right places......We don't need no exact addresses,,,ABC NEWS, NEW YORK CITY. I am positive the mail man has NO problem delivering just from that. CBS news, Los Angeles. You get the pic. Easy. Ah!!!!Consumer editor Dept.
posted on July 28, 2004 04:25:40 AM new
atticques00, are you familiar with AuctionBytes and Ina Steiner? They will definately post this in their newsletter and on their website I'm sure. They need to be aware of this also and it will reach more people that way.
posted on July 28, 2004 05:03:18 AM new
Hi..thank you for the info...Sparkz is correct...large print versus small print.
By the way...the Post Office rounds up as well.
thanks
nyc
posted on July 28, 2004 05:06:44 AM new
Thanks for the info! I also use Fedex alot and glad to have the information.
I totally agree with the measurements too! That steams me every day.
On a side note ~ Isn't it always the big & heavy boxes that get lost the most. My take is that it's too heavy or bulky and some guy decided to let someone else move it and it never gets moved. Hense the reason it's still sitting SOMEWHERE. Turning my hair greyer by the minute.
posted on July 28, 2004 05:33:25 AM new
For those of you who think an Ebay end of auction page is good enough proof of insured amount for USPS,wake up!!
USPS has told claimants that they dont believe this is the true value of the item insured ,or the outside box is not damaged so no deal.
Just because someone bidded up a piece of junk to the moon means USPS is going to pay the final bid amount.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on July 28, 2004 06:02:22 AM new
CAKeen wrote: "Does anybody have any experience with UPS on a similar situation? It looks like they aren't supposed to cover value over $100, too, but has anybody filed on an item over $100 and gotten reimbursement?"
-----------
Yes, we have had UPS Ground insurance claim paid for a few hundred dollars of shipment that arrived as 'broken dishes'.
posted on July 28, 2004 06:07:55 AM new
Thanks for all the interest. At the very least since these folks know that an increasing number of Ebayer's are using their service, they should make a better effort to inform the small shippers who dont know the Tarriff or are prepared to read 20 pages of legalize, as to what is and isn't covered,and stop taking the extra money for insurance. Feel free to Post this thread anywhere you like, and make noise, it's the only way anything gets done.
For the record: below is in part the section of the Tarriff which they used to marginalize the worth of my item. Its under the heading: Declared Value and Limits of Liability,section number (4). Some of the points are not included as I only make reference to the stuff that would likely apply to those on Ebay and my case in particular.
4. Packages (Including Freight shipments) containing all or part of the following items are limited to a maximum declared value of $100.00
a. Artwork, including any work created created or developed by the application of skill,taste,or creative talent for sale,display or collection. This includes, but is not limited to, items (and their parts) such as paintings,drawings,vases,tapestries,limited edition prints, fine art, statuary,sculpture,collector's items, customized or personalized musical instruments
b. Film, photographic images..and so on
c.Any commodity that by its inherrent nature is particularly susceptible to damage, or the market value of which is particularly variable or difficult to ascertain
d.Antiques, any commodity which exhibits the style or fashion of a past era and whose history, age or rarity contributes to it's value. These items include, but are not limited to furniture,tableware,glassware, and collectors items such as coins,stamps,sports cards,souvenirs, and memorabilia ...
e.Glassware, including but not limited to signs,mirrors, ceramics,porcelain,china,crystal,glass,framed glass, and any other commodity with similarly fragile qualities.
f. Jewelry...basically anything you could imagine
j. Guitars or musical instruments over 20 years old.
posted on July 28, 2004 06:32:30 AM new
I had an experience with UPS that worried me. The item was not over $100 but it was an a advertising piece autographed by the celebrity pictured that would have been next to impossible to replace. UPS bent the package enough to fit behind our storm door and left it there in the rain. I tried to collect both the cost of the item and the shipping since it was clearly the delivery person's fault that it was damaged. The UPS representative told me to find a new one and they would send it to me. When I said it was out-of-production and signed so could not be replaced the UPS representative told me that it was therefore not covered by the UPS insurance and by rights I should get nothing for it. They said they would be very nice and not report this if I accepted the eBay sale price. This was a wake up call for me.
Reading the exceptions to FedEx coverage made me sick when I remembered entrusting them with $1,500 worth of antique glass lantern slides! The number of ways that shipment could have come to a tragic end boggles my mind! Thank goodness they were received by the buyer in perfect condition.
-----o----o----o----o----o----o----o----o
“The illiterate of the future will be the person ignorant of the use of the camera as well as of the pen.”
Maholy-Nagy, Vision in Motion, 1947
hasn't been challenged. Unless there is a breakpoint involved with a downward sliding scale of rates, this practice is patently illegal, not only under Federal Law, but under regulations of the California Dept. of Weights and Measures as well as their counterparts in every other state. And as for UPS, if they have similar provisions in their tariffs and conduct similar business practices, I hope they realize that there's probably some big law firm in Beverly Hills or San Francisco that has their sights set on them.