posted on March 20, 2002 01:45:16 PM new
This may have been covered in a previous thread, but I can't find it now, so...
If I remember correctly, when my personal account was restricted (there were no $$ in question - their payment system defaulted to a bank account that I had closed. I had already added & confirmed my new bank account, I just hadn't deleted the old account. A while back I paid for an auction. I hadn't used paypal for so long, I completely forgot my old account was still on there. So when the transaction was rejected by my bank, paypal charged my credit card for the auction amount & subsequently restricted my account for "Unusual bank account activity".) I was so fed up with PayPal - all I wanted to do was close my account, but as I remember it, the user can't close a restricted account.
Doesn't this violate their own User Agreement (Terms of Service)?
Under User Responsibilities - Paragraph 11 'Closing Your Account' - "You may close your account at any time..." I don't see a disclaimer that says you can't close it while restricted, nor do I see a disclaimer in the section that discusses Paypal closing and restricting accounts.
Then again, I don't have time right now to read the entire 25 pages to see if it's buried in there somewhere!
posted on March 21, 2002 12:43:30 PM new
Damon, can you please answer my question about a user closing a restricted account? I'm doing some research - and would like to know what your policy says vs. your user agreement.
posted on March 21, 2002 01:07:35 PM new
Hi ltlcrafty1,
No, an account can't be closed without resolving the restriction first.
The issue you encountered was caused because you inadvertently used a bank account that was not active (apparently).
This will raise fraud flags in our system and is in accordance with our terms of use under "Restricted Accounts"
-Reports of unauthorized or unusual bank account use associated with the account
The key phrase in your statement:
"A while back I paid for an auction. I hadn't used paypal for so long, I completely forgot my old account was still on there. So when the transaction was rejected by my bank"
This issue is entirely resolvable. Once the issue regarding the restriction is resolved, your account will be un-restricted.
My account is no longer restricted. - As I stated - I am doing research. Do your terms of service not state: (Under User Responsibilities - Paragraph 11 'Closing Your Account') - "You may close your account at any time..." ?
posted on March 21, 2002 10:51:55 PM new
My account is also under restriction, for almost the same reason. I had verified my account not realizing that meant that funds were then coming out of my bank account by default. After having a problem with a seller with a purchase that hit my bank account, I stopped payment on the amount. Even though the amount was then transferred to my credit card, PayPal immediately put my account on restriction. They later credited my cc due to the seller being found at fault. In spite of that... they will not take my account off restriction until I send then a notarized document giving them the right to debit my checking account. When hell freezes over!
This is just another example of how screwed up their policies are. They are asking users to give them the right to debit their bank account so they can close the account. What kind of logic is that??
posted on March 22, 2002 10:41:32 AM new
The thing that cracks me up is - they have all these VERY rigid guidelines that users must follow (to the letter) if they attempt to reclaim $$ under their (alleged) seller protection policy, and they state that they can restrict accounts for any reason in their 'Terms of Service' (i.e., paypal bible) if those terms are not stricktly followed, yet they violate the laws of their own bible - but try to get an answer out of Damon about it. I think my question was pretty clear, Damon: DO YOUR TERMS OF SERVICE NOT STATE THAT A USER MAY CLOSE THEIR ACCOUNT AT ANY TIME?
Where in your User Agreement does it say that a user cannot close a restricted (personal) account? (Remember - there were no $$ owed to anyone).
posted on March 22, 2002 12:19:46 PM new
We should be all grateful that PayPal isn't in the insurance business. If you had a fire and theft policy with them... you'd only be covered if the item was on fire and being stolen!
posted on March 26, 2002 10:47:01 AM new
YO! DAMON!
PLEASSSSEEE ANSWER MY QUESTION. I'll type it again, so you don't have to look it up!:
Does it not state, in your User Agreement, Under User Responsibilities - Paragraph 11 'Closing Your Account' - "You may close your account at any time..."?
And doesn't it go on to say... "if an investigation is pending at the time you close your account...", indicating that even if there IS a $$ amount involved, you still have the option of closing your account?
If you are not able to answer my question, can you please refer it to someone who can?
posted on March 26, 2002 12:48:03 PM new
Whenever I ask a question, generally around half the time Damon answers it, and the other half he just ignores it, even after a 2nd post of the question. Maybe if I post questions that aren't answered (and you post your question) once a day, he'll answer it.
posted on March 27, 2002 02:00:35 PM new
Well let's see, I've already asked it 5 different times on 4 different days in this thread... he responded only once, and by trying to explain why my account was restricted and how to get it un-restricted. Problem is, that was done a long time ago... my account has been un-restricted for months - my question is purely factual. Apparently, since the answer will prove that they violate their own terms of service, he can't answer it.
posted on March 27, 2002 09:20:55 PM new
Just try bumping it up every day, it would probably look bad for them if you keep re-asking the question and Damon refuses to answer it.
posted on March 28, 2002 12:50:06 PM new
I don't even care if it's not Damon who answers... in fact, I almost prefer that he 'refer' it to someone else... just give me the name, Damon, of a real person with a real phone number that can answer my question. Then I'll post the answer. Chicken.
I don't really think they care too much what it looks like if they don't answer your question. Look at Shelia12's posts... he COMPLETELY ignored her until he thought her problem was solved... then he pipes up 1 time, realizes she's still having problems, goes right back to ignoring her. It's just amazing.
posted on March 29, 2002 02:54:36 PM new
Hi ltlcrafty1,
I believe your answer to the closing restricted accounts can be found in the USER AGREEMENT (posted below)
As it relates to responding to posts/questions, I have to relay the following:
a) I have more than one forum that I work in.
b) I receive numerous emails daily (generally 80-200).
c) Most of your questions can be found in the USER AGREEMENT
d) I have customer issues that I have to take care of first
e) I have other responsibilities as well
To be quite frank, the mostly combative nature of this forum makes me far less inclined to post here.
User Agreement
II.12:
Closing Your Account. You may close your account at any time by clicking on the "Close Account" tab in your Profile on the PayPal website. Upon closure of an account, any pending transactions will be cancelled. Any funds that we are holding in custody for you at the time of closure, less any applicable fees, will be paid to you by check, assuming all withdrawal related authentication requirements have been fulfilled (for example, you may not use closure of your account as a means of evading withdrawal limits on new Unverified users). You may not use closure of your account as a means of evading investigation - if an investigation is pending at the time you close your account, PayPal may continue to hold your funds for up to 180 days as appropriate to protect PayPal against the risk of reversals. If you are later determined to be entitled to some or all of the funds in dispute, PayPal will make an additional payment of those funds to you. You will remain liable for all obligations related to your account even after such account is closed.
I understand you're very busy. Many of us are. Thank you for taking the time to try to answer my question, however, I still do not see where it says that a user cannot close a restricted account. It says 'if an investigation is pending at the time you close your account'... implying that even if there IS an investigation in connection with your account, the user is still able to close the account, but funds may not be released until the investigation is completed. I believe the first part of the paragraph says it all. "You may close your account AT ANY TIME..."
Even under 'Rights, Obligations and Disclaimers of PayPal; Closing and Restricting Accounts - it does not say that a user cannot close a restricted account.
Yet once your account is restricted, even if no $$ are owed to anyone - you attempt to close your account and you are not allowed to, until their 'investigaion' is complete** (and even this isn't true - you are unable to close your account until the restriction is removed.) What's up with that?
posted on March 29, 2002 08:06:50 PM new
Damon... like alot of other people here, I initially contacted you in a non-combative manner. Your initial response, as always, was that you'll try to help. In almost every case, you seem to either quote policy or refer it to someone else. It appears to me, and most others, that you are only doing lip service to give the appearance you are helping. If you had tried to help with, or make an attempt to understand, the issues people were having, we would not be so combative. You should only blame yourself for the response you get on this forum. (A recent example... just take a look at the response you just gave on this topic... how would you react if a "customer service" representative responded to you in the same way??)
Lastly, my account has been on restriction for almost two months now. I have tried to close it numerous times, with no success. My account is only on restriction because I stopped a payment, and thus I have no outstanding investigations, but I am still unable to close my account.
[ edited by frustratedguy on Mar 29, 2002 10:16 PM ]
posted on March 30, 2002 12:56:50 PM new
Damon said,
"""""To be quite frank, the mostly combative nature of this forum makes me far less inclined to post here."""""
How do you expect people to act when a company like PayPal starts playing around with their money. You guys over at PayPal may have plenty of money but there are people out there who use your service who need that money that you have locked up for no good reason. It tends to piss people off. Then comes "Mr. I have forwarded your complaint to blah blah blah" When you ignore people they will get combative. Why don't you give me your next couple paychecks and let me hold them until I get ready to give them back. I won't spend them, I'll just hold them for a while and see how you like it.
Does it not state, in your User Agreement, Under User Responsibilities - Paragraph 11 'Closing Your Account' - "You may close your account at any time..."?
Where does it say that a user may not close a restricted account?
Since the answer to the second question is 'nowhere' - I'm assuming I'll be ingnored. This is CRAZY! They make users follow every word of every sentence of their "User Agreement" to have any kind of alleged 'protection', but they can do whatever they want, and make up rules and policies to suit themselves, and not have to answer to ANYBODY for it!
posted on April 3, 2002 10:07:15 AM new
Maybe Damon needs to come up with another bright idea and form a user advisory board. (I'm sure when and if they do, they won't be inviting any of us!)
posted on April 3, 2002 02:02:06 PM new
Coonr, in frustratedguy's case, the investigation is complete, yet the account is still restricted. PayPal knows a payment was stopped, and they got the money from the credit card instead, it is just they want frustratedguy to give them legal permission to withdraw from their bank account. This isn't an investigation.
posted on April 3, 2002 03:36:50 PM new
I have not seen the statement they want sent, but would almost bet, they simply want proof it is his bank account, since they had a transaction bounce.
What you think the chances are we will ever see what they really want?
posted on April 3, 2002 04:30:32 PM new
Coonr - Re: "It is clear the terms of use do not permit the 'closure' of an account while an investigation is in progress".
It is? How clear? Because if we're reading the same thing, it quite clearly says ..."if an investigation is pending at the time you close your account..." It never says you cannot close it. It says you cannot use closing of your account as a means of evading investigation - but even that doesn't say you're not allowed to close your account.
Your idea of 'clear' and mine are completely different.
posted on April 3, 2002 09:45:24 PM new
Paypal knows it's a good account... they've had it on file for almost a year. And besides, I never had or have any intent on using the bank account. I only gave it to them for verification purposes. Why then, do I need to give them the legal right to debit my account at will??
This investigation was closed over two months ago. The seller was found at fault, not me. Why then am I still on restriction?? Why won't they allow me to close my account?
posted on April 3, 2002 10:08:20 PM new
They probably need to keep the account open in order to pad their membership numbers. They want to show their stock holders that they are gaining members and not losing them. Kinda underminding huh?
posted on April 4, 2002 09:50:27 AM new
coonr, Re: "To me, it is clear, you can close your account once the investigation is complete."
The reality is - the terms of service DO NOT STATE that a user cannot close a restricted account. In fact, they state 'You many close your account AT ANY TIME.' And the reality is - if you're account is on restricted status, regardless of whether or not there is an investigation going on - YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO CLOSE A RESTRICTED ACCOUNT. In frustratedguys' case, as he has said numerous times, the investigation has been closed for over 2 months. HE IS STILL NOT ABLE TO CLOSE HIS ACCOUNT. The terms of service even make a provision for 'if an investigation is pending AT THE TIME YOU CLOSE YOUR ACCOUNT paypal may continue to hold your funds for up to 180 days...' Even this indicates that you have the ability to close your account - you just may not get all of your funds immediately.
Please, enlighten me... (since Damon can't/won't) show me where it says a user cannot close a restricted account, if it is SO clear to you that this is what they mean.
Gee, I hope I didn't break any copyright laws by posting this. LOL
posted on April 4, 2002 03:50:09 PM new
[In frustratedguys' case, as he has said numerous times, the investigation has been closed for over 2 months.]
frustratedguy can say your GREEN but that don't make it so. If the investigation was closed the account would not be restricted.
It would appear to any reader here that frustratedguy has not provided the necessary information to validate the account as his, since the rejected transaction. Hence, the investigation is still open.
posted on April 4, 2002 04:48:32 PM new
coonr - OKAY, AND YOUR POINT IS????????
It would appear to any reader that you didn't provide the necessary information to answer the question that you claim is so clear to you, either. Don't dodge my question by telling me what frustratedguy needs to do.
When I originally asked the question, it had nothing to do with frustratedguy. The fact that his situation is EXACTLY what I'm asking about is fine... But it doesn't answer my question.
You stated that it was clear to you that the terms of service did not permit closure of an account while an investigation was in progress. JUST TELL ME WHERE IT SAYS THAT?!? Just point me to it, or quote the part that says a user cannot close a restricted account.
posted on April 4, 2002 08:32:31 PM new
In frustratedguy's case, he says that PayPal is asking for permission to debit his bank account. Most reasonable people who read these boards know that this is an unreasonable request to demand before return of the user's money. PayPal can do many other things to verify the identity of a user, including just re-verifying the bank account, without asking him to give them permission to withdraw from the bank account. Damon keeps avoiding the issue of why PayPal would want permission to debit frustratedguy's bank account.
[ edited by andrew123s on Apr 4, 2002 08:35 PM ]
