posted on March 23, 2001 06:26:44 PM new
Pocono, it must be an "East Coast" sort of thing then. What are these "Benevolent" or "Fraternal" Orders? Are these the Police Officers Associations, (in other words police officer unions that negotiate the salary and benefit contracts and MOU's with the city (or town)? Or are they some kind of "social club" made up of current/retired officers? I'm not sure if they are the same as our POA's, but I KNOW that our POA's DO NOT issue those cards.
posted on March 23, 2001 07:20:50 PM new
gravid: This is NOT the scam you are describing, beleive me. That is unless the state police, the sherrifs department, the town police and the county police are the ones running the scam.
Katy: Yes, they are through the police unions, etc. exactly like you described.
And like I said, I have been with several people who used them, and skated away scot free. The COPS hand them out, you don't BUY them gravid.
I beleive you pay $25. for the gold metal rear window sheild in NJ though.
It's more a way of saying, "hey copper, I donated to your retirement, so give me a break!"
posted on March 23, 2001 09:17:52 PM new
There's nothing on my personal car that indicates I'm a cop. I could have an FOP emblem displayed but that's an open invitation for someone to break into the car looking for a gun.
The two largest Police bargaining organizations are the Fraternal Order of Police and the Police Benevolent Association. They're not exactly labor unions. Cops are forbidden by law to go on strike or initiate job actions. The FOP and the PBA act as bargaining agents and negotiators at contract time.
Both of these organizations issue "courtesy cards" to members, associate members, and civilian contributors. They also sell emblems for display on a vehicle. They suggest that such cards and emblems may help in avoiding a traffic citation. Under the right circumstances they might work.
Most traffic stops do not result in a citation being issued. If a person shows a card or displays a sticker they may think it had some effect on the outcome of the stop. In reality the impact is minimal. They may make the difference if an officer is undecided about whether he wants to issue a ticket. It's unlikely that a serious offense would be overlooked as a direct result of producing a card. Some cops actually hate the cards and will definitely issue a ticket to someone who tries to use one to "get out of jail free".
Every cop has special powers granted to him/her by their jurisdictions. One of the lesser known of these is discretionary power. It means that an officer does not have to make an arrest or issue a citation for certain classifications of minor offenses. Traffic offenses fall into this category. Some cops rarely issue tickets to attractive members of the opposite sex. Some have a soft spot for the elderly or people who use their vehicles for work. Most of them are willing to give a fellow officer the benefit of the doubt. It's legal. Very few of them will jeopardize their own careeers to cover for a drunk or reckless officer.
All cops have fewer personal liberties than the average citizen. They do not enjoy equal protection under the law. The slim chance of avoiding a traffic ticket hardly seems a fair trade-off.
None of the officers I've known who have been killed on-duty died as an obvious result of drug law enforcement. Four were shot while attempting to stop armed robberies. Two were shot in the head while in their patrol cars doing paperwork. One was killed when an armed felon turned and fired during a foot chase, another was shot by a sniper outside a high-rise. One was found dead in an alley, another in an abandoned house. One was shot by the driver of a car during a routine car stop.
I grew up in a city, too. I never had much in the way of fondness for the cops. I still have a lot of problems with the way we operate and the way we're structured. There's a lot to criticize in a modern police department. The job is not at all attractive to the most competent people. Those who are good at it eventually become disillusioned or become politicians. I really wish that more people who didn't like the police became the police. I can only speculate as to why they don't.
I do think this war on drugs that is not working is a big part of the risk police are facing.
In a small town about 150 miles from where I live, two police officers and one suspect were recently killed in a shootout. The officers were trying to serve a search warrant relating to the suspicion that the suspect was dealing in drugs. After an investigation, 3 or 4 ounces of marijuana was found.
On that day, in that place, the price of a life was 1 ounce of pot.
posted on March 23, 2001 10:20:20 PM new
I live in Detroit, and in a response to the comment made by HJW we have racial profiling here also. If you are white and in the wrong neighborhood, you can count on being stopped, your car searched, and told that you must be here to "buy drugs or pick up hookers". The racial profiling exists in all forms.....
posted on March 24, 2001 06:04:26 AM new
xardon - I am surprised by the lack of connection to drugs but thanks for the answer. It looks to me like it is a bigger risk to do your paper work in your cruiser which keeps you from being aware of the surroundings.
Next to the post office I favor is a Tuesday Morning store that sells closeouts and remnants.
They have a big decal in the window with a pistol asking you not to bring a weapon into the store. What a tremendous pain in the butt for an off duty officer. Do they really not want their business since most departments around here require their off duty people to carry?
If the have to call for a robbery it would serve them right if they were told - Sorry we can't come in and help you because we are carrying. You'll have to handle it with your own resources.
posted on March 24, 2001 09:26:05 AM new
Pocono - You sound like such a hard case you make me sound mellow. It gets complicated when you handle it yourself. Not to mention the last time I used a short barreled shot gun inside it was so expensive replacing the door / drywall / and carpeting it might have been cheaper to tell them to come on in and take what you want.
posted on March 24, 2001 09:52:42 AM new
It sounds like the "FOP" and "PBA" organizations are similar to our PORAC here. Individual POA'S can opt to join PORAC and pay dues which among other things, provide legal representation for job related legal issues, as well as act as a political lobby to state and national goverment on peace officer issues. But PORAC does not enter into individual contract negotiations on behalf of the individual police associations. Anyone can send a "contribution" to PORAC and I suppose that they would get promotional materials such as a car decals, bumper stickers, coffee cup, etc. I've never heard of PORAC suggesting that displaying any promotional decals or cards issued for membership or contributions may help in avoiding a citation. We don't display any decal, bumper sticker, etc. that might identify us a members of any law enforcement association. If stopped, the only thing that might identify the vehicle as belonging to a police officer is that the address is registered to the Police Department. Until fairly recently, addresses were available to the public from the DMV (this has changed since the murder of the actress from Mork & Mindy a few years back). Most police officers prefer to keep their addresses and phone numbers unlisted for obvious reasons.
I have a real problem with these "Police Benevolent Associations's" and "Fraternal Order of Police organizations" soliciting donations for car decals and id card's and "suggesting" that the use of them will help avoid citations. That is wrong and certainly perpetuates the public's perception that law enforcement "protection" can be "bought". I'm surprised that they are allowed to get away with that crap, if it is true as Pocono and Xardon state. In fact it p***es me off!
It's likely that some of those shootings were indirectly related to drugs. Only three of them happened within the past 10 years. None occurred in a planned tactical situation.
I've never been assigned to Narcotics nor have I had an interest in that particular specialty. They're usually very well prepared when they conduct an operation.
Departments that require officers to carry a gun off duty are rare. It's a serious liability issue. Any use of that weapon can result in a suit against the department. I doubt that the sign you mentioned would dissuade a local cop from carrying in that store. The officer's local authority would supercede any private restrictions.
I seldom carry a weapon off duty. The potential legal consequences of its use, even if justifiable, are far too serious to risk.
To say that they suggest, as I did, that the emblems and cards will prevent a traffic citation is probably overstating the obvious. What they do is allow people to believe they are effective in that manner. I'm sure that a spokesman for either group would flatly deny that such is the intent. The emblems are made to be displayed on a vehicle, the cards to be carried in a wallet. The implication, to me, seems quite clear.
I believe that most police oficers do extend certain limited courtesies to fellow officers and their families. Such professional consideration is present in all fields. It's practice within the law enforcement community is viewed as corruption bt some and as consistent with human nature by others. I can understand why people would be offended by it.
posted on March 24, 2001 10:56:27 AM new
I can see where the off duty weapon requirement would be a problem. One of my recent bosses rides motorcycle and went for a summer ride with another fellow who was a
friend who was an officer. They became aware that a police car had been following them although he did not turn on his lights or
pull them over. After they went on a few miles later they were joined by another car
which was what the first one was waiting for and then they pulled them over. They were
immediatly forced to lie on the ground as the officers got out of the cars with drawn weapons and cuffed them. He was treated OK but the officer was treated rough. They stepped on his neck and held the barrel of
a pistol jammed in base of his neck while they cuffed him. After they did that they relieved him of his 9mm and finally got around to actually speaking to them. Turns out the cop could see the outline of the off duty officers weopon and went through all this only to find out it was a legal carry.
As there are not only all the other police officers but 22,000 legal concealed permits
in Macolm county alone it seems a little extreme to handle someone like that before you find out if they are legal or not. What is the point of having permits if you are going to be treated like that? If you handle enough people like that with drawn weapons eventually someone is going to make a mistake and shoot an innocent person.
posted on March 24, 2001 12:59:03 PM new
The City my husband is employed by requires that he be armed when he off duty but is within the city limits. I don't like it, but there it is. It is part of his employment regulations.
gravid, awhile back my husband was pulled over coming home from work (he doesn't drive to or from work in uniform). As the officer approached the car, he held his hands up in full view and announced that he was carrying and was a police officer. Prudent thing to do whether you are law enforcement or not. And no, he didn't get a ticket.
posted on March 24, 2001 05:28:58 PM new
It was interesting that my friend said the off duty fellow would not talk about it with him then or later and he said the officer who cuffed was trying to engage him in conversation about it and he would not speak to him either. He told them both someone else would be speaking with the arresting officer so I suppose he made any complaint he had through one of the departments.
They had a thing in the newspaper here one time about a lady officer who said it was a real difficult rule to follow when you are all dressed up to go out for an evening.
She had a clutch purse that was exactly big enough for a 9mm Glock an extra clip and as she put it - one lipstick. Said it was not fun carrying around a purse that was like a brick all night.
We live in a little town of about 5,000 well outside Detroit and have our own department.
I have never heard one person in town have a bad word to say about any of them. If you call and make it clear it is a real emergency you can figure you will have a car pulling up in 3 to 4 minutes. Most of the time they have two cars out. There are not many robberys here. There are no expressways through town and it narrows down to 4 roads leaving town on the compass points so it is a real bad place to commit a crime and expect to slip away. The only time we had a bank robbery since I have live here the police just happened to pull into the parking lot when the guy was inside so his get away car drove off without him thinking by mistake they were responding. When he came out he tried to take a ladies minivan who had her kids with her and she floored it all the way across the parking lot and intersection with him hanging out the window and when she could not push him out locked the brakes up to get rid of him going about 50. They said in the paper he cartwheeled over 200 feet down the road before he stopped. Fortunately for him the Hospital was about 2 miles away because he had a bad case of broken everything and major road burn. Don't under estimate the soccer Moms.
