posted on March 30, 2001 10:18:46 AM new
It really helps when people come out of the closet however there are those for whatever reason don't.
There are many reasons why coming out is helpful. Stereotypes are destroyed and "THEM" is removed from one's vocabulary.
Whenever I publicly debate anti-gay people they are "repeat petes" -same ole same ole- "Adam and Steve" is one repeat argument. The same Biblical versus are quoted over and over. So tell me something NEW!
Actually it is very easy to debate the anti-gay people. They are so predictable.
Fear of the unknown, fear of being "wrong" and that everything one had been taught throughout their lives is being pulled from underneath their feet. And so oftentime one is insecure about their own sexuality.
Pocono
There are some heterosexual marriages that aren't real but they have full benefits of the institution such as visitation at the hospital, tax breaks, insurance, inheritance and so on.
posted on March 30, 2001 11:37:22 AM new I'd have to say that you are missing the easy truth that now though there has been no lessening of viciousness there is a near abscence of ongoing wit.
posted on March 30, 2001 06:13:01 PM new
My main beef lies in how stupid the Christian churches who are against same-sex marriages are. If a "marriage" is purely a religious function, then government should not be involved. Instead of these churches trying to use the force of government to bend to their beliefs they should be kicking government completely out of the marriage business altogether. That way, if some one want s a "marriage", then it is a religious affair and can be denied by a church if it goes against their belief system. But, NO!
I am not a believer in marriage with spouse-as-property. The religious version of marriage is just that. The civil version of marriage is a set of laws that amount to property rights. Hello? What is the government doing in this business -- right?
If homosexuals or groups want to get "married" in a civil legal ceremony that outlines all of the rules and responsibilities of each member -- then great! (Hey! I've always been a big fan of Heinlein!) Traditional "marriage", with spouse-as-property ought to be left up to churches who interpret them.
If we did it MY way, then no one would ever have room to complain! Right?
posted on March 30, 2001 07:19:03 PM new
A few years ago I read a bumper sticker "Straight, not narrow". I think that really summed it up for me.
Why should I be offended because two people love each other? sounds kinda dumb to me.
Nature or Nurture? It doesn't matter. Two people Love Each Other, dammit! Who gives a sh*t that they can't reproduce? Maybe "They" can help "us" out with some of the unwanted offspring "created" by the heterosexuals.
For those of you who are more "tolerant", as well as those who are not quite comfortable with this, humor me:
Think about the relationship of the same-sex couples you know. Doesn't the bond seem stronger? IMHO, gay relationships are more monogamous with the partners having a greater appreciation of how "lucky" they are to have found someone to share their lives with. Love is a rare and beautiful thing. It is hard to be "different". To face the world with it's cruelty and say "this is my partner"? The obstacles that these individuals and couples have had to overcome are tremendous. Those who have "come out", IMHO, are light years ahead of people who search all of their lives to find out who they are and what they want.
So...Same Sex Marriages Okay? okay by me!
(btw, not hiding for the purpose of this thread ~ just changed my AW ID!)
posted on March 30, 2001 08:23:39 PM new
In my store I had customers of all types including heterosexuals, homosexuals, transexuals, transvestives, and even two hermaphrodites.
Over the years I have come to realize a few things:
1. We are all people - no matter what your orientation is, you still bleed red blood and cry real tears.
2. People are born straight or gay. Do you really believe someone would choose to be ridiculed?
3. Gay guys make the best friends!
4. If you, as a woman, ever wants to REALLY enjoy a male dancer show (AKA Chippendales) go with a group of gays. You will finally discover why the dancer is able to cover with whipped cream .... oh, you get the idea!
5. You love who you love. If you are lucky enough to be in a safe, monogamous relationship, congratulations!
posted on March 30, 2001 09:49:59 PM new
""3. Gay guys make the best friends!""
Until that best friend molests your 4-year old grandson who in turn teaches his little buddies how boys have sex with other boys, and you wind up in the worst emotional turmoil having to experience your grandson's own internal anger and pain - not to mention the horrid inquiries by public officials - without any magic way to make his hurt go away.
posted on March 30, 2001 09:58:31 PM newktsclutter I am not trying to take away from the pain and anger that you feel, because I know first hand what Child Sexual Abuse can do to a family. But Abuse does not just come from the Gay community, it comes from right across the board and in a lot of cases from "straight" heterosexual guys as well.
posted on March 30, 2001 09:59:04 PM new
Gays corrupt and often molest the youth. Then they try to use the media to their advantage even in cases where the Supreme Court realized they were wrong (the scout incident).
posted on March 30, 2001 10:17:03 PM new
nettak -
I understand that abuse comes in all forms, and from (most often) hetrosexuals. But I can't help my anger directed at this particular "gay" man who my family trusted and valued as a friend. I will not be able to look unbiased at the gay lifestyle from this point forward. I will not be able to accept anyone at face value any longer - and that hurts me as well as it turns me into a judgmental, self protecting, biggot.
posted on March 30, 2001 11:03:40 PM new
ktsclutter, I am not saying that you do not have the right to be angry and judgemental, and I certainly would not think that you are a biggot. You have not said anything that would make me think that way. I really do understand where your anger is coming from. My own family has suffered at the hands of a preditor of many small children.
All of the gay community that I have known are wonderful people and would not ever even think of performing such a revolting crime against anyone let alone a child.
All I was trying to point out is that anyone has the power to abuse a child, not just a homosexual person.
posted on March 30, 2001 11:09:25 PM new
Here come the villagers now with their pitchforks and torches. Gee, guys, a little late aren't you? I expected you hours ago.
Child molestation cuts across all sexual orientations, but unless I'm mistaken it is most often perpetrated by men who are perceived by their family, friends and community as heterosexual.
posted on March 31, 2001 12:19:09 AM new"Child molestation cuts across all sexual orientations, but unless I'm mistaken it is most often perpetrated by men who are perceived by their family, friends and community as heterosexual is flawed.
If a population is made up of 80% orange and 20% grey then statistically grey members will commit 20% 0f all crimes and orange will commit 80%, or most of, of all crimes.
posted on March 31, 2001 05:51:41 AM new
I found this:
"The Bible has God's blueprint for marriage and His gift of sex (Genesis 1-2). God designed sex to be enjoyed only in a marriage between a man and a woman. The Bible doesn't suggest any exceptions, like homosexual partnerships. From Genesis on, the Bible praises the marriage of a man and a woman, but only speaks negatively of homosexual behavior whenever it is mentioned.
The Old Testament states, "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable" (Leviticus 18:22, NIV). The New Testament agrees, listing "homosexual offenders" among a list of people who "will not inherit the kingdom of God" unless they are cleansed through Christ (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, NIV). Other passages are Genesis 19; Romans 1:18-32; 1 Timothy 1:8-11; Jude, verse 7. However, it's important to note that the Bible speaks only of homosexual behavior (which would include lust -- choosing to fantasize about behavior), not unchosen feelings. God will not judge a Christian guilty for his or her involuntary feelings.
Many insist that if homosexuals are born that way then it must not be a sin. However, it must be emphasized that even if a biological predisposition to homosexuality exists, it wouldn't change God's opposition to the behavior. We all have areas where we are more vulnerable to sin, areas where you could say we are natural sinners. But being tempted is not sin.
Also, in a world broken by sin the discovery of a genetic link would not prove that such a condition was God's intent before Adam and Eve sinned in the Garden of Eden. We're responsible, along with Adam and Eve, for the brokenness in our world, and this brokenness extends even into genetics.
Furthermore, freedom from sinful behavior is always available through the transforming power of Jesus Christ. There were homosexuals in the church in Corinth and they were transormed: "And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God" (1 Corinthians 6:11, NIV).
A recent book which discusses genetics and homosexuality is "Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth" by Dr. Jeffrey Satinover. For a practical guide to overcoming homosexuality, the book "Coming Out of Homosexuality" by Bob Davies and Lori Rentzel would also be helpful. These books are available through most Christian bookstores.
Exodus International North America (exodusintl.org) provides information about homosexuality and Christian ministries that help those impacted by homosexuality"
Your orange-grey reasoning is ridiculous. Apparently blacks make up 12% of the prison population now, too? Other factors determine a groups behavior than color (or sexual orientation for that matter). Your reasoning is faulty.
To the rest, my main concern about gay marriages is the adoption issue. It's not fair to the kids they adopt, who are going to be ridiculed through the hardest parts of their life, by the majority of the other kids - and adults for that matter. It's a shame, but it's a fact. Obviously it would be nice if kids weren't so hard on each other, but facts are facts, and until I could be sure that the children adopted by same sex couples wouldn't have to deal with all of the extra emotional trauma brought on by their "parents" selfishness, then it is not right.
How can you call yourself a "parent" if you are more concerned about making a point, or doing what you will, rather than the emotional well-being of your children? It's not right when straight people do it, so it shouldn't be right when gays want to do it either.
posted on March 31, 2001 07:42:35 AM new
Villagers with pitchfroks? Uh, yeah well sure. How about responding to the points I made, if I am wrong. I'm always willing to listen to logic - not namecalling...
posted on March 31, 2001 07:44:40 AM new
I don't think it is about making a statement.. and I think it is preferable for a child to grow up in an "alternative" household with love, than to be born into an unloving "traditional" relationship.
Kids are very adaptable, and if you treat them with respect, and give them the information they need, they can cope with being "different".
posted on March 31, 2001 09:00:12 AM new
not namecalling, jlpiece, just perspective:
>>until I could be sure that the children adopted by same sex couples wouldn't have to deal with all of the extra emotional trauma brought on by their "parents" selfishness, then it is not right.<<
You will never be guaranteed that adopted children in any instance will not have to deal with emotional trauma. You will, however, come closer to a "guarantee" that children who spend their lives bouncing through Foster "homes" will be significantly traumatized. That is, as you say, "not right". It is "selfish" to deny children the gift of a loving home, regardless of the sexual orientation of their parents.
>>How can you call yourself a "parent" if you are more concerned about making a point<<
By this rather biased statement, I assume you feel gay couples only adopt to "make the point" that they, too, can be parents. You do not feel that is appropriate when heterosexual couples adopt (1) because they can not have children of their own or (2) because there are too many "unwanted" children in an overpopulated world.
People adopt for a variety of reasons.
IMHO, I would prefer, in my difficult teenage years, to have a role model that has survived the ridicule of others. Not a mommy who was the cheerleader and the daddy who was the football captain ~ parents who live in reality.
psalms:
>>a practical guide to overcoming homosexuality<<
Nice concept, if homosexuality were a choice. I'm sure many gays would prefer a heterosexual life.
>>"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable"<<
Perhaps this is being spoken to a woman and your interpretation is backwords.
Or is the Old Testament only written to the homosexual white male?
hmmm....
...JMO...
posted on March 31, 2001 09:18:24 AM new
nettak -
I didn't take any offense at your words. No need to apologize. This forum is for airing personal views. I agreed with you. But for now my trust in this particular lifestyle is gone. It would be no different if my best girlfriend had an affair with my husband. I would be angry at women at that point, feel betrayed and would be unable to trust for for some time. What I have lost for an interim period of time is my ability to look indifferently at a person and accept appreciable qualities that make any person a whole, rather than to be judgmental. In that respect I called myself a biggot. I condemned myself, you didn't.
Spaz - I'm not carrying any pitchforks or torches, just anger. I will reiterate my point, "I understand that abuse comes in all forms, and from (most often) hetrosexuals. But I can't help my anger directed at this particular "gay" man who my family trusted and valued as a friend."
posted on March 31, 2001 09:39:30 AM new
People are not born straight or gay. Infants have no sexual orientation according to all of the studies I have seen. Sexual orientation develops later on in life after many different variables determine what appeals to someone sexually.
posted on March 31, 2001 09:47:03 AM new
JL:
I thought your issue was with adoptions.
There are just as many studies that support nature as there are studies that support nurture.
posted on March 31, 2001 09:53:00 AM new
kts:
I'm so sorry for what you and your family have had to go through. I hope that you can all start to trust again. It must be incredibly difficult for you as a parent. My heart breaks for you as I can not even begin to imagine your pain.
Please realize that the following is a question, and not an attack! I understand your tendency to be judgemental at a time like this, however, have you lost trust in ALL of your friendships or just in gays?
It hurts so much to let someone into your life, your heart, and your family only to have them hurt you so horribly. I feel for all of you. My heart breaks for you!
Right?
