posted on April 11, 2001 01:28:55 PM new
The Confederate flag serves as a historical reminder to many that the right to leave the Union as outlined under the Constitution is false.
posted on April 11, 2001 01:51:49 PM new
Well, I suppose that the next time that I see black leaders complaining about the confederate flag being on the state flag, while across the street white folk are shourting with Confederate flags on their t-shirts and waving Confederate flags, I'll try to remember that they are actually agreeing with just how hateful slavery was and how sorry that they are not up to parr -- never mind that the symbol of the Confederate flag is a bother to so many Americans.
posted on April 11, 2001 03:03:36 PM new
You should go after the Union Jack next, many anglo-saxons were brought to this country as indentured servents.
posted on April 11, 2001 03:16:03 PM new
bunnicula,
YOU STATE,HJW: Your links about recent happenings in South Africa show a *black* government mistreating black people...
So?
Did you read uaru's post that the chief of police in Biloxi is black? I'm going beyond skin clolor. A race of people is being mistreated in Africa, just as a race of people is being mistreated in Mississippi!!!
What about this do you not understand?!?!
Some excerpts from the article...
Shocking video footage of white policemen training attack dogs by using black prisoners as bait.
Although the public outrage focused on the virulent racism of the policemen involved, who laughed as the dogs savaged the men, it has not gone unnoticed by immigrants that the three victims were "illegals" from Mozambique.
... Racism is institutionalised and rooted in the agencies of law enforcement and imprisonment." We were dismissed as ultra-leftists whose politics warped our academic analysis.
.....
What in the hell difference
does the color of the skin of
the people in power have to do with this
problem?
Please remember to address the topic, not the individual.
Everyone, this thread is becoming combative. Please take a step back and keep the CGs in mind as you post. Otherwise, I'll have no choice but to lock the thread.
posted on April 11, 2001 03:46:41 PM new
Thank you for pointing out Indentured Service, kcpick4u. However, I'd like to also point out that indentured servants volunteered to be put into that position, an that the contract usually lasted only seven years -- an indentured servant could look forward to frredom in the near future. Plus, indentured Servants had legal rights; they could not be murdered on a whim, nor could they be seperated from children and sold elsewhere, etc.
Now, contrast that with the African Slaves and I see a whole lot of difference. Still, it was a good thing that indentured service was abolished.
posted on April 11, 2001 04:03:08 PM new
These kinds of arguments make me slightly queasy. It always degenerates into an argument that the Civil War was ONLY about race. (Ironic since the first crisis of states demanding potential independence date well into the 1840's - well, before there was much of any abolitionist movement - north or south)
One side ends up on their own morally certain high ground knowing that anyone that disagrees with them is simply a racist. Fine whatever - you can't change their minds anyway.
Anybody that is interested in a study of the subject of the war and the Confederacy is simply shouted down. (Since we already seem to have established that all Poor Southern whites are racists - why listen to anything they say)
And the rich irony is that damned few of the people condeming the "Confederate flag" could pick the first pattern of the Confederate Flag out of a group if they wanted to.
It's not that simple to break the war down into ONLY terms of race - on either side.
What if?
The Southern States had reversed their succession in 1861 and come back into the union as slave states? Lincoln had said he was ok with it.
Or - if the Emancipation Proc. had been strictly enforced - Keeping all slaves in Federally occupied territories in slavery? (It really wasn't until the Constitution was changed that ALL the slaves were freed)
What would the discussion be today if the Confederacy had freed their slaves before declaring that they were leaving? Whould their still have been a War?
Finally, there are many examples that don't fit well into the pre-conceived notions about the war. I am always mortified when I find that people don't understand the number of free black there were in the Southern States. Many folks have a simplistic notion that if you were black in a southern state - you were a slave.
Lets look at Henry Brown of Darlington SC. A drummer with the Darlington Guards. A free black and brickmason - he enrolled himself as a member of the unit. After the war, he entered reconstruction politics and was elected to office. He used his position many times to assist members of his old Confederate unit. When he died in 1907, he was given an elaborate military funeral from surviving members of the Darlington Guards and a monument was placed at his grave. in 1990, the people of Darlington SC restored and refurbished his monument.
How about the example of Thomas Williams of Conway County Arkansas? A planter and slaveholder - he raised a regiment for the Union cause and fought with it in the Trans-Mississippi. In 1865, a unit of Confederate Cavalry found him at his home and gunned him down in front of his family - he went down with guns in both hands.
It's just not that simple to try to frame the Civil war ONLY in terms of race.
Nutspec
(Who had a ancestor in the 100th Illinois infantry and another in the 37th. And who was born and raised in an Ex-Confederate state - So I've heard this from both sides of the fence)
[ edited by nutspec on Apr 11, 2001 04:06 PM ]
posted on April 11, 2001 04:14:28 PM new
You surely have, Helen...throughout this thread. This entire thread is dealing with racism. You compared racism in Mississippi with happenings in South Africa. Even your last post...
"I am saying that a RACE of people is being
mistreated in South Africa."
What do you suppose that means? Are you saying that the black government of South Africa is mistreating the black race? Please.
This is an interesting topic. The fact that
a race of people in Mississippi is being
mistreated in a similar way that a race of
people is being mistreated in South Africa.
Unfortunately, we have strayed off topic
so I believe that we should just agree to
disagree on this point and get back on
topic.
posted on April 11, 2001 04:51:18 PM new
Gosh, y'all have been busy while I was cooking dinner and watching Jeopardy...
Nutspec Thank you. I wish I could have stated it so well.
Borillar I apologize, I just noticed I had been mispelling your name throughout all of my posts.. no disrespect intended!
Toke, you said that this entire thread had been about racism.. didn't it start by being about free speech? I would say we've certainly all used our right to free speech pretty well so far!
Danged UBB...
[ edited by sugar2912 on Apr 11, 2001 04:52 PM ]
posted on April 11, 2001 05:17:48 PM new
Oh, Helen...don't be silly. Just because your posts are disagreed with, doesn't make you anyone's target. Why would you think such a thing? You're certainly not mine...our viewpoints simply happen to be quite different.
This is just conversation. Really.
sugar2912...
Yeah, it started that way. I think... I think I'll go to bed and read. All this free speech has pooped me out...lol!
posted on April 11, 2001 05:50:00 PM new
Toke is telling you the truth, Helen. I've always been her target and she hasn't the scope of vision to take on another one.
You post was an impressive display of intellegent and respectful dialog, in a sensitive topic where usually debate is overshadowed by uncontrolled emotions.
posted on April 11, 2001 08:52:47 PM new
Thank you for the kind words.
I've about stopped bothering to post here anymore, but the topic was one that I do have a very strong opinion on.
I despise this debate on the Confederate Battle flag (Of a pattern largely issued to Eastern Theater armies - Rarely if ever seen in the west) and the current shrill yelling about it. (Again, the blasted thing they are yelling about is NOT a Confederate National Flag - of which there were 3 patterns. It's a "battle" or unit regimental pattern.)
(The "stars and bars" in an "X" pattern on a red field made up the panel portion of the second and third national pattern with the second being a large white field and the third having a broad red strip on the outside edge)
I despise the bigots that adopt the Battle flag in the name of their own vicious racial hatred. And I am almost despondent in the lack of historical context used by those who refuse to see it as anything but a symbol of that kind of racial hatred alone.
Again, the irony is that I likely could fly the first national confederate flag (circle of stars on a blue panel with 2 broad red stripes and one white stripe) and have very few associate it with ANYTHING - especially the Confederate States.
posted on April 11, 2001 10:05:39 PM newSugar2912: apology accepted, although not entirely necessary. Everyone tends to misspell the name Borillar - even me!
Nutspec, thanks for dropping in and adding your thoughts on the subject, but is STILL doesn't answer any questions. Such as, "What redeeming value is there for Southerners to remember a war where they were disloyal and were defeated? And for their treachery, many returned to ruins and murdered kinfolk?" And "If not to show a burst of 'White Pride', then whatfor is it being shouted over so much for?" Now maybe you can shed some light on this, as you seem most well informed and intelligent and well-lettered. Care to enlighten us who are ignorant of the Purpose of those who are hanging onto that flag?
posted on April 11, 2001 10:48:51 PM new
Before moving away from the supposed facts presented by nutspec, it should be considered that there was a strong abolutionist movement as early as 1800, and that legislation was passed limiting the extension of slavery in 1808.
George Washington himself said in 1797 that "I wish from my soul that the legislature of [Virginia] could see a policy of a gradual Abolition of Slavery.", and During his presidency, Washington seems to have concluded that slavery was absolutely incompatible with the principles of the new nation and could even cause its division.
For those who go about saying that the industrial revolution in the north made slavery unnecessary there, while it continued to be vital in the south--you are absolutely wrong.
It was the invention of the cotton gin which made the processing of cotton profitable in the south and brought about a new and increasing demand for slaves in the south so that the economic values used as masks by southern defenders could be supported. That means that the industrial revolution is the reason for the need for slavery in the south, not the reason for it's early demise in the north.
It was the national movement into legislating away slavery in all of the states which brought the south to rebel.
All "what if" conjectures brought by nutspec are irrelevant. The south could not by 1840 afford to have the institution of slavery at risk. So the rebellion.
posted on April 11, 2001 11:44:55 PM new
Again, I love this man :
There is no real point in dissecting the true motives of the Civil War, other than agreeing that economic issues so greatly divided this nation over chattell (sp?) bondage. Many Northern states abolished slavery (if they had laws as such), which led to the abolitionist movement.
What bothered me, initially, about this thread, was that Borrilar(I hope I spelled that right) asked a question about kids wearing clothing deemed inappropriate.
There were responses, the most ridiculous coming from folks asking about issues that deal with black separation events. Some people used this as an opportunity, IMO, to start classifying folks by racial and ethnic groups, which, again, IMO, is wrong. I apologize for taking their bait and responding in an uncivil manner.
I won't delve back into any of that. Suga, you have provided many good examples as have others. I attended a nearly-all-white white suburban school today that has had a black man who directs their music program. Imagine that.
Race and racism are as relevant today as 200, 400 , etc years ago. My father always said, "Those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it." For those who continue to ask why there are no WET or other "whites-only" based info, good gracious! Are you so blind that the obvious isn't there?
posted on April 12, 2001 12:30:05 AM new
Borillar if you due a little research you will discover that the African indentured servents were here first and from indentured servitude arose what is defined as African slavery in this country. I ask you why a flag that was not regonized officially by the Confederate government could instigate such discourse, public opinion and racial division.
posted on April 12, 2001 12:44:03 AM new
Because the particular flag, or it's originality or not, doesn't make any difference at all to the statements being made by those who display it.
There's one other thing, if I could be permitted a "what if" of my own:
I have never been able to understand the pervasive racism against blacks in this country, and most especially in the southern states. Given the long interaction in that area of the country between peoples of both colors, and the economic interdependency which formed the basis of the way of life in so much of the area it would seem to me that there would be less racism there than in other areas, rather than more.
What if it had not been black people who had been enslaved in this country? Suppose that there was a mixed culture of blacks and whites in the south who together enslaved another grouping or race, perhaps asians. Were that the case, can anyone say that there would then not be racism applied by white people against black people? I don't think that anyone could say in honesty that that would be the case. If I'm right,then the motive cause of resentment of blacks in the south as presented is removed. With such a removal, if it could be acknowledged, the
question arises of why then does racism in the south exist.
Consider that another race was effectively imported and enslaved in this country in the 19th century. Chinese people were brought here, and forced into labor in industries which were also a result of the industrial revolution. But there is not such a pervasive targetting of asians in this country as there is of blacks. Even though the country has three (or more) times been at war with asian countries, there is not. Even though in
exigent circumstances there has been generalized imprisonment, property siezure, and all of the other horrors perpetrated by this country against asian races or nations, there still is not the character of racism as described before against black people. Not with the volumnous propoganda against those peoples is there a seated tradition of racism against them.
I don't mean to present any sort of argument which could be construed to say that racism against black people exists ONLY in the south in this country; I'm considering those aspects in the south because this issue of flags in schools has arisen there, and because this thread has had it's oncentration focused there because of that circumstance.
posted on April 12, 2001 01:52:37 AM new
You bring up an interesting point krs. Perhaps we see racism directed at blacks for entirely different reasons than slavery. In fact I would gather to bet that if you could ever get a racist to be honest about the roots of his racism (an unlikely scenario for sure) I doubt slavery would be anywhere near the top of their list. Perhaps that explains why there isn't the same racial undertones towards asians for example as there are against blacks. My belief as to the cause of the resentment of blacks, is that it is obviously rooted in ignorance, and probably rooted in a low sense of self worth. Perhaps a bad experience or two spoiled there whole opinion of a race of people - it may sound strange, but the sad fact of the matter is that some people are that short sighted.
We keep looking for deeper causes for racism, but I contend that I have never met a smart racist. Perhaps they aren't that bright, and thus unable to seperate one or two bad experiences from the color.
Prejudice is obviously a different story - I would hope we could all admit we have some prejudices whether they be racial or not. But the racism generally comes from the less well educated in society. Perhaps that's just been my experience though, so take it for whatever it's worth.
This topic is 6 pages long: 1new2new3new4new5new6new
I think I'll go to bed and read. All this free speech has pooped me out...lol!