posted on April 27, 2001 06:25:13 PM
An absurdity of our society is that many people react more negatively to a man saying he desires to be a woman than to a man who is a drunk, or an addict, a wife-beater, a thief, an embezzler, a man who abandons his children, etc. Even murderers don't inspire the same scorn in some people that transsexuals do.
Is there something so horrible about women that a person should be ridiculed, persecuted or discriminated against for simply wanting to be one?
posted on April 27, 2001 08:14:25 PM"Is there something so horrible about women that a person should be ridiculed, persecuted or discriminated against for simply wanting to be one?"
posted on April 27, 2001 08:40:43 PMAnd don't confuse transvestites with transsexuals with cross dressers. They are all completely different
Rocker, can you explain why they are different? Im confused about this, and really want to know.
Transexuals change sex. So, if a person is born a man but feels like a woman and changes to a woman, then has desire for a woman, are they not homosexual?
Tranvestites keep the sex they were born with, but dress as the opposite sex and are attracted to the same sex they are. Therefore, they too are homosexual?
Cross dressers keep their sex they were born with but switch back and forth between both sexes and are attracted to both sexes, are they not?
Most of the literature is unanimous in stating that the majority of transvestites/crossdressers consider themselves to be heterosexual males. Many are married, have kids, etc. Their interest in cross-dressing is fetishistic. They get a sexual kick from it (although many report that as time passes the sexual element dies down and it becomes more of a relaxation thing). Most have no desire to do the nip and tuck.
That notwithstanding, there are a sizeable number of bisexual crossdressers too. Some of these exhibit interest in their own sex only when dressed as the opposite sex, while others manifest the desire dressed or not.
Then of course there are homosexual men who dress and live as females. By and large, they are referred to as drag queens. Some drag queens do it to make money -- as performers, as prostitutes, etc. To make themselves more marketable, they may indulge in cosmetic surgery such as breast augmentation, electrolysis, etc. But they too have no interest in altering their genitals.
It used to be thought that transsexuals were defined as those who wanted to live, work and be accepted as members of the opposite sex, and who sought surgical procedures to make their bodies match their minds. But in recent years a new term has come into vogue to describe the varying degrees of transsexuality that are out there. This term is transgendered.
Transgendered covers a broader range of definition. A transgendered person may be someone who has had the final SRS, a so-called "post-op." But it can also apply to a male who has decided to live full time as a woman but without the final surgery. They may go in for electrolysis, breast enlargement, tracheal shave, facial restructuring, etc. to make themselves more passable as women, but for reasons of their own (lingering doubt, fear of surgery, whatever), they elect to keep the plumbing they were born with. They differ from drag queens or crossdressers because they identify themselves as women, not as men. They take on the female persona 24/7. They are frequently called "pre-ops."
Again, there are varying degrees of sexual preference among the transgendered (just as there are among any segment of the population). Some consider themselves heterosexual women and thus are interested in having sex only with men. Others go both ways. And still others, even while living as women still prefer women, and consider themselves lesbian.
I guess what I'm trying to get across is that nothing's carved in stone when it comes to gender identity and sexual preference. There's no 100% heterosexual, no 100% homosexual. Just a lot of people doing their best to find some happiness for themselves in a society that would prefer they be miserable rather than express their true selves.
Note: While I have used the male-to-female scenario for the sake of convenience, gender identity conflicts are hardly restricted to men although they do seem to occur with less frequency in women. Scientists believe that gender dysphorias may be caused due to something that happens in utero. People don't choose to be transgendered. It's who they are.
posted on April 27, 2001 11:09:27 PM
SPAZ you ROCK!!!!! High five, that was great!! ::::APPLAUSE::::
Hi everyone! Nice to meet you Ench and Hep
Hep I love questions Well I will say from the experience I have had, that first of all, we have to seperate gender identity from sexual preference, and what I mean by that is, your gender identity is whether you are (or feel) male or female. But your sexual preference is something all together different - that is who you are attracted TO. NOT what gender you are yourself. Right? So... there are straight and gay people whether they are trans or not is another story, and no group can be lumped together or generalized because we are all different. For example, MOST (I say most, not all) cross dressers I have known, were men who liked to dress as women, but they were mostly straight men, attracted to women. I don't know a lot about men wanting to dress as women, I don't know many cross dressers. The few I did know were happily married to women. One of them hit on my girlfriend and I was not pleased. LOL (He did look much better in a dress than I do by the way. NOT that I would ever wear one!!!)
Transvestites are USUALLY (not always) people who do dress as the opposite sex at times, but do not really identify as that sex. Example: I know some "drag queens" who do mostly performances in clubs. But back in the daytime they are back to their male selves, and I find they are usually gay males. (Not always.)
Transsexuals: This is a whole different ball game... um.. no pun intended Most transsexuals (and I DO know and work with a LOT of Transsexuals) are people who actually feel they are NOT the sex they were born into. This is not a performance and nothing to be laughed at. These are people who truly feel betrayed by their bodies, and do not relate or identify with the gender assigned to them at birth. A lot of them go on to have the surgery, but unfortunately, a lot of them cannot afford it. (20 grand at least.) Most go on hormones and can live as the gender they feel they are, whether or not they have surgery. They can be straight or gay, just like anyone else. My ex-girlfriend is transsexual. She is also an activist and her speeches are brilliant, I wish you could hear them, she can speak on this subject SO muich better than I can. I know many transsexual women and some are straight (attracted to men) and some are lesbians (attracted to women) and some are bisexual. I also notice a lot more transmen here in NY lately... female-born people who identify as men. Did you see the movie "Boys Don't Cry"? I HIGHLY recommend it.
I myself am another story alltogether. I am sort of trans, but not getting a sex change and not going on male hormones. I don't relate to being ANY gender and I can't seem to check off either box. If there were a third gender or a non gender, I would be it. Mind you, I am one very handsome pretty boy.
Spaz - what you said reminds me of another sad fact. The transwomen I know (born male-bodied who live now as women) seem to lose their jobs, families, etc. The oppression is out of control. On the other hand, transmen (born female who now live as men) seem to move right up into better jobs (if no one KNOWS they are trans), less harrassment, more privelege. Our culture is always repeating the same message one way or another: That WOMEN are worthless. And that any "man" who would leave the "priveleged group" to become something as LOW as a woman deserves no respect. SCARY, isn't it?!
I also noticed when I was with my girlfriend, sometimes people on the street could tell she was trans. I didn't understand this because she did not look at all "male" to me. But it was always men who noticed, and it was men who were ATTRACTED to her, and would hate themselves SO MUCH for their attraction, that they harrassed her terribly. Example: One man screamed at her "Hey you F*GG*T I am going to F*** you and then I am going to KILL you!" Nice, huh?? Do you see how he noticed she was trans, called her a gay male, (which she is not, but this man was clearly homophobic and transphobic, and once he realized she was Trans, he thought of her as "male", and was enraged by his own attraction to her), and then expressed he wanted to have sex with her, but then OF COURSE he would have to kill her off, right? Sick sick people in this world... and it is the trans people we pick on??? It is people like HIM that are the sick ones. Once on the street, a group of young guys who were washing a car turned the hose onto her and soaked her to the skin, caling her names the whole time.
I could go on and on. And I probably will.
Thank you for asking, Hep. I hope I have answered your questions. If not, please ask me again
Rocker
posted on April 27, 2001 11:12:13 PM
WOW Spaz I had not seen your last post yet cos I was posting... now I am REALLY impressed. Will you marry me? I don't know what gender you are, but, does it matter?
Rocker
posted on April 27, 2001 11:26:11 PM
PS: A lot of the trans women I know don't have the genital surgery because there is a risk of never acheiving orgasm again. Then again some of them tell me they are happy just to have the breasts and facial surgery and other surgeries (as Spaz has already mentioned) and to be able to "pass". I myself don't use the word "pass" because it implies "pretending" or "getting over". I am always in "counseling" mode because I believe in raising self esteem and not giving into this narrow minded culture's demands; not trying to seek approval or validation from others.
Rocker
Just do me a favor and don't get yourself suspended. You can do more good "alive" than silenced. I like some of the open-mindedness you've brought to this board. Heck, I can almost forgive you for starting that "Who Stays Up the Latest Thread," LOL.
posted on April 27, 2001 11:36:38 PM
Wow, thanks Rocker & Spaz for the education! I've known gay men, gay men who were drag queens, bisexuals and lesbians. But you two have delved much deeper into subjects I've always been curious about, but have never known who to ask. You both rock!
posted on April 27, 2001 11:42:17 PM
LOL Spaz
I was wondering if my last post was gonna make it past the judge and jury... I did bleep out the bad words, didn't I?? Jeeez I am REALLY trying!!!
posted on April 28, 2001 12:28:16 AM
Well I think that the two of you Rocker & Spaz may have given a few people an education they did not bargain on. LOL I agree with Mouse you both rock.
posted on April 28, 2001 12:36:24 AM
Thank you Netta and Mouser!!!
Now if anyone asks me how the actual surgical prodedure is done, it is MOST CERTAIN that my detailed account will cause me to lose my posting priveleges forever.
LOL!!!! (They're lucky I didn't post photos.)
ROF!!!!!
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 28, 2001 12:41 AM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 02:03:47 AM
Hey where did everyone go?? Jeeeez ya start talkin about gender and everyone runs away. (They're all peekin down their drawers goin Hmmmmm... ? ? ? Just checkin.)
Pssssst Joice are we still friends? I hate it when
we're mad at each other.
JOOOOOOIICEEEEE jooooooooooooooooooooooooiiiiiceeeeeeeeeee JOICE!
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 28, 2001 02:05 AM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 06:43:41 AM
<humming the chorus to "Lola">
Good morning, Rocker. Didn't want you to think everyone had run off. Some of us are just late to the festivities.
Having looked at Mlle. Gossuin's photo, I would be very surprised to learn that she has a Y chromosome. (There's one thing about the appearance of a transgendered woman that does not change, regardless of surgery, hormonal therapy, clothing, or cosmetics.)
I'm a little surprised by the comments on Mlle. Gossuin's height and hand size. Who would expect a woman that tall to have small hands? Really, it's ridiculous.
I don't presume to understand the notion of gender dysphoria, but I have counted transgendered people among my friends, colleagues, and clients for almost thirty years now.
And I'll never forget the look on the face of a transgendered teen in my care at a children's shelter when I gave her a lipstick (she liked makeup and girly stuff) on the day when she'd been forced by the shelter adminstration to undergo a "proper boy's haircut."
Her family had tossed her out because they couldn't handle her insistence that she was really a girl. The shelter staff were not only no more understanding, but actively encouraged the other children in the shelter to harass and abuse this child.
I saw her recently, and she's happy and looking fabulous. Who am I to judge?
posted on April 28, 2001 06:47:20 AM
Wow! Gone for a day, and I miss the flaming by someone who obviously thinks I'm a homophobe. LOL! Perhaps nyrocker needs to reread my comment: What a person chooses to do with their sexual identity down the road is their own business.
You don't know me, so I won't respond to your accusations of "ignorance and bigotry". It might be a good idea to know a little about someone before you make such accusations. Suffice it to say, that I am personally and intimately acquainted with gay issues and I find it ludicrous in the extreme for you to accuse me of being "judgemental". Try to know a little more about posters here before you are so quick to flame them for "judgemental and ignorant" views.
I could say much more on the subject, but it appears to me that this is not a subject that you have the ability to discuss rationally and calmly. And as a counselor for Lesbian Gay Bi and TRANSGENDER community you of course know gay/lesbian issues are not neccessarily the same as "transgender" issues, and there are many gay and lesbian individuals who do not subscribe to your militaristic "transgender" opinions of gay/lesbian issues. With that, I am out of this thread. Flame, don't flame. I won't be addressing you or participating in this thread again.
KatyD
[ edited by KatyD on Apr 28, 2001 06:48 AM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 07:10:23 AM(There's one thing about the appearance of a transgendered woman that does not change, regardless of surgery, hormonal therapy, clothing, or cosmetics.)
tabb,
I'm curious, what's the one thing?
katy and rocker,
Could you two call a truce? I think you both have valuable viewpoints to offer, just different styles of presenting them.
posted on April 28, 2001 09:18:12 AM
>>Just a lot of people doing their best to find some happiness for themselves in a society that would prefer they be miserable rather than express their true selves.<<
{{{spaz}}}
I was going to stay away from this thread, this subject that can get my feathers in a ruffle. Thanks for your well worded opinion, spaz. (it helps to keep my feathers in line)
ahhh....very few of us are lucky enough to be born & bred straight not narrow with a clarity of their gender identity. Life's not fair. BTW, "straight", as used above, refers to a stright line, not the direction to which it points
{{{rocker}}}
Welcome home, sweetie, you've been missed. teehee, the Fonz?? Interesting choice!! LOL!! Some of us here have seen your "warmth and fuzziness". There ain't nobody here who can hug and smooch like you ~ with or without fangs, male/female/or otherwise!
posted on April 28, 2001 11:43:54 AM
Personally, I prefer KatyD's presentation.
"Sweety" is not a way that I would characterize the argument and personal attack of Rocker.against KatyD
And then using veiled threats against the
moderator is unusual also. Wheather you are
a paying member of Auction Watch or have
a few friends should not be an excuse to
get away with anything.
Neither should your sexual orientation
be an excuse to gain favor or exemption from
decent rules of conduct.
KatyD's no shrinking violet. She's been around as long as I have and in that time I've seen her go head to head with the best/worst these forums have to offer. She always holds her own. Let her and rocker hash it out, if they feel they want to. Or let it lie.
posted on April 28, 2001 01:05:23 PM
Gee, I could swear KatyD said she was out of this thread. I'm sure she appreciates your bringing her back into it.
"Sweety" or, actually, "sweetie" is a term of endearment or affection used to address a person.
that ignore button still works, doesn't it?
I am well aware that KatyD can handle anybody
on Auction Watch or any other board in the
auction world.
I simply wanted to state my opinion about this issue and I did.
Helen
You guys carry on and don't waste your good
time replying to me.
I am sort of trans, but not getting a sex change and not going on male hormones. I don't relate to being ANY gender and I can't seem to check off either box. If there were a third gender or a non gender, I would be it. Mind you, I am one very handsome pretty boy. 
Hippy wannabe 
~^~
jooooooooooooooooooooooooiiiiiceeeeeeeeeee 