posted on April 28, 2001 02:02:00 PM
Hi Spaz!
Remember the "same sex marriage" thread? Same issues. The judgemental attitude jumps right out at me. Gender identity is a deep issue where ignorance and lack of tolerance run rampant. More often than not, fear and lack of information causes people to assault each other rather than learn to accept and appreciate our differences. Maybe it's a maternal instinct. I'm not sure. I'd like to think that society will allow my children to grow up to be proud of who they are inside rather than force them to conform/hide/be ashamed. I've always tried to learn more about the things that I don't understand, rather than to wear blinders. I wish I could understand why gender and sexuality issues bring with them a surge of aggression and violence. Mostly, I hope that if anyone near and dear to me needs me to be there for them, I want them to know they will not be met with the rejection that so much of society turns to. Gender and sexuality has nothing to do with my respect for someone as a human being.
That said, I very much respect your post ~ I'm not sure how/why you have developed such insight in this area (I'm a bit jealous!). Regardless, your posts are informative and non-judgemental/non-confrontational.thanks!!
So many questions, so many ideas. Who really knows anything for sure? I guess it all comes down to respect (or lack of it). And privacy. Does anyone really care if Miss France was born with a penis or is it just an excuse to ignorantly separate the "us" from the "them"?
*sigh* I wish we could "evolve" peacefully!
posted on April 28, 2001 02:07:34 PM
Sorry I couldnt get back to this thread sooner...had a GREAT day today and scored some really great stuff, so thats why I have been absent.
Thanks for the information Spaz and Rocker. I am always confused about the titles and the meanings. I have two wonderful dear friends that are both male, both dress as women in the evenings and both are gay. When I asked them once why they didnt "whack it off" and go all the way as women, the first thing both said was "ewww!". They also are entertainers as female impersonators, and once, the tall thin guy let me watch him get ready for his show. It was interesting to see what he did with his "parts" since that particular show, he was Cher. . I havent asked him deeper questions though, because he shuffles his feet and once told me that he was fearful he would lose my friendship, and no matter how much I told him it mattered not, I respected his desire to not tell me more of his personal wants, needs and feelings concerning his sexual preferences. We have been friends for over 15 years and I want to keep it that way.
I admire katyd very much, and consider her very knowledgeable in many things. I am a bit dismayed at the remark towards her, as I do not believe she is homophobic. However, I will hope that Rocker and Katyd can hash it out and come back in as two people who agree to disagree, and that Rocker sees that perhaps she did come on a bit too strong in assuming what she did about katyd. With that, I will shut up.
posted on April 28, 2001 06:51:48 PM
Oohhhh Jeeeeeez. Sigh.
First of all HI ZOOMIN!!!! Smooooch!!!!!!**** {{{{{MANY HUGS}}}} I loved your post of course.
Hi HEP
Okay then, HOW did the subject get conveniently changed to homophobia and my conduct because of my sexual orientation, etc etc etc?!?!?!? Did anyone actually READ my original post??? Can we stick to the original topic of Transsexual Women?? Oops, or was the original topic leaning more toward Let's make fun of the Trannie Girl - is that what we're supposed to be doing??
Can someone please show me where I called katyd "homophobic"?? When I spoke about bigotry, I was addressing Transgender issues, not gay and lesbian ones - and I am the one who just finished explaining how they are NOT the same thing!!! Sheeeeesh. I ALSO took GREAT care to explain how it's not fair to lump any group of people together and that we cannot generalize, I used words like "Not always, but most of the time".... and yet I am accused of having "militaristic transgender opinions"?!?!? Uhhh yeahokaywhatever.
Seriously, if anyone thinks it is "bad conduct" to argue or defend your point when someone is calling it nonsense and silly while they appear not to know (or maybe not to care or have empathy for??) the subject at hand, then fine, I have bad conduct. If the person DOES know or care about the subject, then explain this:
"Gender is determined by chromosomes, and of course, the "equipment" one is born with reflects this"
Nope, the equipment one is born with does NOT reflect this, and THAT is the whole point. THAT is what Trans people have to face every day: Living in a body that does NOT express their feeling of gender, and trying to be who they really are. And then if they are "found out" - like possibly Miss France, who might possibly have been born male-bodied (OOOOOH GASP GOD FORBID!!!!!) then they have to deal with people trying to SHAME them, cast them out, try to invalidate who they are, MAKE FUN OF THEM, harrass them, etc etc etc
Every time I defend women or Transgender people or ANYONE, someone calls me "BAD" or whatever. Ya know, I DO confront people, that is how I am. And that is not gonna change, I don't see that as a bad thing. I guess most of us are expected to "play nice" and not "rock the boat". Just go along with the other sheep. Be a nice quiet sheep. Don't question anything or try to change anything, don't challenge someone when they're being phobic. Imagine if Rosa Parks had been a quiet sheep and had sat in the back of the bus where she was "supposed" to?
Tabbi I loved your story. But I wonder too, what is this "one thing about the appearance of Transgender women that does not change" that you are referring to???
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 28, 2001 06:54 PM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 07:26:06 PM
Rocker, thats unfair. Nobody was making fun of the "trannie girl". And Im beginning to take offense that because I (as well as two others) wanted you to calm down, we are called sheep. No, I dont want to rock the proverbial boat. I have enough sh!t going on in day to day life without coming here and having someone yell, and if someone comments on it, they are lumped in with accusations that were not made. I come here to relax, and ask questions if I dont understand something. But thats going alittle too far, lumping everyone in that we are making fun of you.
posted on April 28, 2001 07:33:56 PM
[i]James I can kick your butt in math any day. And in a lotta other areas too I bet. ;
)[/i]
I guess if I have to explain the joke, it bombed. There is no "math portion" of a T & A show. That's what we're talking about; a shake-your-booty competition. For the record, that's all this topic is about -- a ridiculous beauty pageant and a ridiculous "controversy", probably dreamed up by pageant organizers to draw publicity to the whole thing -- at the expense of a 19-year old girl who, for better or for worse, is mortified that her genitalia is an international news story. Any attempt to read another intent or issue into my original post is entirely unfounded. I'm well aware that topics will go into other directions, and as I don't own any threads I certainly have no problem if this one is used to discuss something other then what I posted, but please rest assured that this thread was not started to make fun of or even to discuss the larger issue of transexuality.
posted on April 28, 2001 07:34:52 PM
HEP I was NOT talking about YOU!!!! WHY are you personalizing this?????? I was referring to the "sheep" of our culture..
oh forget it. now i know why i got bored with AW.
Rocker
posted on April 28, 2001 07:37:52 PM
All beauty pageants suck. Why not have "humans" dressed in black capes from head to toe, and have written answers to questions asked and votes are cast on what the best response is? Afterwords, whip off the cape and voila. There is your winner. Beauty is in the heart and soul. Not on the outside only.
posted on April 28, 2001 07:40:10 PM
Maybe Im tired. Maybe Im just wanting things to CALM DOWN. Maybe Im a grouch. I dont know. Maybe I should just take a walk around Helens neighborhood. In fact, I think I will. BBL when its more mellow.
posted on April 28, 2001 07:44:52 PM
No James and I really didn't mean that about being bored. Right now I feel bored because I feel exasperated cos people (not ALL of the people - am I making that CLEAR enough???) seem to keep taking what I'm saying the wrong way, and I am tired of explaining myself. I didn't leave last time cos I was bored, not at all. I left cos I was truly busy. But NOW I am bored with this conversation. It pissed me off and made me say that which I didn't mean about leaving because of boredom. However, the rest, I DO mean, and yet HEP is now even taking it like I meant HER when I did not. This is so not fun anymore and not interesting. It figures THIS was the subject that would bring up so much hatred and tension. I could've predicted that one.
Bye.
Zoomin Chepi Kaz email me. I am suspending my own "priveleges"
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 28, 2001 07:51 PM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 08:20:41 PM
Is it so frigging difficult for everyone to simply discuss something without getting into the personalities, the posturing, the pissing contests? Cripes, I'm surrounded by women yet it reeks of testosterone in here.
rocker,
It's gonna tick me off if you pull out now.
james,
It never occurred to me that this thread was for the sake of ridicule. You've never done that. No reason to believe you ever would.
posted on April 28, 2001 08:40:17 PM
Rocker, why are YOU so angry? I told you what was bothering me and tried to express myself the best I could. Just like you did. I took your post the way I did because from this end, it seemed as though you were addressing me/us in the "tranny girl" thing (whatever the hell that means) and painting with a broad brush. I realize you are frustrated with society's take on whatever sexual preference one chooses and yes, it is unfair to judge someone by such a thing, but that isnt the case in here. Most of us are pretty mellow when it comes to that and could really care less, really (from what I have seen anyway). So if you are leaving because I said something to tick you off, Im sorry. But you ticked me off. Now, can we go back to the topic and discuss this further without the anger?
[ edited by HEPburn on Apr 28, 2001 08:41 PM ]
posted on April 28, 2001 09:04:47 PM
I've followed this thread with interest and have found it to be very informative.
I've brought along a bucket of ice water in case it gets over-heated again - I'd really like to see it continue.
I'm curious about the percentage of people who are born each year without an identifiable gender. I seem to remember the percentage was quite high especially considering the fact that we rarely hear about it. In those cases the parents are often told to make the choice. As I remember it, the doctors even choose for the parent without informing the parent sometimes? I would assume that sometimes they "guess" wrong.
It seems incredible to me that our society seems to ignore this legitimate issue as if it doesn't exist. I'm sure there's a reason... just not sure what it is.
I believe you're referring to cases of hermaphroditism or pseudohermaphroditism in which the organs of both sexes are present at birth.
As I understand it, the practice of "choosing" is no longer recommended, as several cases have indicated that gender identity is the result of nature, not nurture.
The most well-known of these was recently featured on Dateline. It was the case of two twin boys; at birth, one of them fell victim to a careless doctor who was cauterizing his circumcision and wound up frying the baby's penis off.
The parents were advised by John Money of Johns Hopkins University, the expert in the field of gender studies during the seventies, to raise the boy as a girl. He recommended that at puberty the "girl" be given female hormones to help her develop breasts and other female secondary sexual characteristics.
Well guess what? It didn't take. No matter how much positive reinforcement the child received as a girl, he knew in his heart that he felt like a boy -- even though no one had ever told him what happened to him at birth. He lived a hellish existence until the end of his teenage years, when he finally discovered the truth about himself.
He has a lot of anger over what happened, said at one point he felt like killing their family doctor, who went along with the whole charade.
He's living as a man now and is married, but is extremely bitter and angry about the past.
But what his case shows is that gender identity is formed within, not the result of exterior forces or choices.
But getting back to hermaphrodites who are the product of birth rather than a postnatal injury ... Frankly I'm not sure who makes the call as to how they raise the child anymore. Perhaps they do it according to which genitals are more developed, since frequently the second set isn't fully formed.
But hermaphroditic people these days refer to themselves as "intersexed."
posted on April 28, 2001 09:50:27 PM
I saw on a program (cant remember which) that when babies are born with both genitalia, the doctor or parents or both decide which to "remove", thus causing the child to BE whatever it "left" for them to be considered. The person they were refering to was then an adult and said it was the WRONG choice, because they felt they were missing something of who they were once they found out what happened at their birth. How awful to have such a thing happen. And worse, that there is no choosing what sex, since you are a baby and have no say.
posted on April 28, 2001 09:52:45 PM
The sad thing is that parents are forced by societal pressures to "name a gender" immediately even when it's truly not known. There's no freedom to say - we honestly don't know yet... could you imagine what a person would have to endure for saying that? Instead, the child is forced to conform to something he/she may not truly be. Just so the parent can save face... pitiful.
Not to muddy the waters but I don't believe that there is any such thing as gender anyway. It is only a necessary part of who we are while on this earth (a tool) - but has nothing whatever to do with our true essense - the spiritual part of our being which survives the body.
posted on April 28, 2001 10:01:08 PM
It's so weird, some of us are still heterosexual men who enjoy looking at womens physical beauty. Shame on me. I'm so odd. If only I could find somewhere to fit in.
posted on April 28, 2001 10:17:05 PM
Hi rocker.....it's nice to see you again!!!
Like some of you too, I've been unable to figure out what the different terms all meant. Thanks spaz for putting it all in layman's terms.
It's so good to see that we're finally reaching a point in society where people are starting to understand that these people aren't "choosing" to be the way they are, but were born that way.
But I'm curious to find out whether people will ever really accept people that dress up as the opposite sex because they usually don't look like the sex they're portraying. It seems to me like the person is trying to call attention to themselves by trying too hard (JMO).
And this is a very honest question, but do you know of any men that want to look like/be women that DON'T go for the make-up and hair-do's?
posted on April 28, 2001 10:25:35 PM
I guess if you're really lucky JL you won't be ridiculed for your feelings or made to feel less of a person because of it. Hetrosexual men that enjoy looking at women are just lucky that way I guess.
Kraftdinner I don't look for society to progress too quickly on this issue. If you look at all of the ways that we insist on separating and categorizing ourselves from each other - skin color, religious base, height, hair color... the list is endless - it's pretty clear that we have an insatiable need to live by "them" and "us." Sexual identity categorizing will be one of the last prejudice to disappear - if ever, IMO. Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
posted on April 28, 2001 10:44:16 PM
Mybiddness - I agree with you fully. I was just trying to say that I think society has finally gotten it through their heads that homosexuals, etc., are made that way, not that they chose to be that way. I certainly agree that we have a long way to go, but I do think people are at least more open to discussing it now, thank goodness!
posted on April 29, 2001 02:03:47 AM
Oh how right you are Mybiddness, I agree with your thoughts on the gender sexual ID's topic being the last or at least one of the last prejudices to ever disappear. It is a sad thing, and like the religion thing it should never be thrown up at anyone.
I can never understand why there was ever a need to have a them and us, but that is unfortunately the way things are in our not so perfect world.
Kraftdinner some people are more open to discussion on sexual gender topics, but there are a hell of a lot of people that still only see one colour and usually it is the colour of there choice. Not everyone can talk about these topics without it getting very heated, and as we have seen here today we need to hose down the room temp. every so often.
Now back to the original topic, I really do not understand what all the fuss is about. If this contestant chooses to live as a woman even if she was born a male, who's business is it of anyone else. For god's sake are we all so perfect that we can sit in judgement of anyone. The panel who was doing the checking up is pathetic in my view. What the heck did they think they were going to prove even if it came out that she was born a male, she is obviously very much a female today and has been for some time now by the look of her. She is a very stunning beautiful woman.
posted on April 29, 2001 02:21:18 AM
How long before this at issue deviance is a norm? And what bandwagon would misfits find to ride after it is? There'll always be something.
posted on April 29, 2001 03:51:26 AM
Well, good morning again.
Spaz and rocker,
Hairline (around the face). The natural hairline of a person born with an xy chromosome is different from that of a person born with an xx chromosome, and is unaffected by hormonal treatment.
It can be disguised by wigs, of course, but most of the transgendered people I know are not performers, and don't wear them. I suppose the hairline could be altered by other means, but it's the sort of thing most people never notice, and I've never met a transgendered person who bothered with trying to change it.
James, I'll admit it, you probably could kick my butt in the math portion of that pageant. But I'd kick yours in the 13th century French poetry competition any day, with or without hormonal adjustment.
posted on April 29, 2001 07:33:43 AMHow long before this at issue deviance is a norm? And what bandwagon would misfits find to ride after it is? There'll always be something.
I hadn't thought of the hairline, although I've read that some plastic surgeons are starting to offer altered hairline as part of something they call "facial feminization surgery," which is a radical, painful procedure in which the patient's facial bones are cut and sanded down and reshaped to be more characteristically female. They change the hairline at the same time, the nose too. They also raise the eyebrows. I can't imagine how painful it must be, but the results are pretty amazing. Reminds me of those old movies and TV shows where a character played by Actor A goes in for plastic surgery and comes out as Actor B.
Well, that's an interesting development, and one I hadn't heard about. (All of the transgendered people I know personally underwent SRS fifteen or more years ago.) Pain aside, and just considering the high costs for less extensive cosmetic surgery procedures, I wonder how many are going for facial feminization. (And what about the F=>M transgendered? Is there facial masculinization surgery?)
It's kind of funny to think that I learned to look at hairlines years ago in my clubbing days, and that it kicked in rather unexpectedly one time, when I was taking a class on a metaphysical subject.
The instructor was/is internationally famous and respected in her field, with many books and articles on the subject to her credit. My partner and I own several of her books, and we were extremely excited to be able to study with her.
When she (a tall, pleasant, and rather bohemian-looking lady in her forties) entered the room and faced us, I looked at her and my eyes registered her hairline...
I don't know why I was surprised. (Context, perhaps?) I later learned that she has written fairly extensively and eloquently about transgender issues, both in fiction and from the perspective of cultural anthropology. Her life and her work have been instrumental in my efforts to understand.
(edited for clarification)
[ edited by tabbinosity on Apr 29, 2001 09:09 AM ]
, so thats why I have been absent.
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 28, 2001 06:54 PM ]