posted on April 29, 2001 09:21:26 AM
I've learned quite a bit from this thread and thank each person who posted information or their opinion. I'm still confused about a few things but no matter.
I'm still curious about the hairline thing though... I've been quite unconcious of people's hairlines my entire life and was wondering, what are the qualities of a "feminine" hairline as opposed to a "masculine" hairline? this is a serious question as I don't know the difference, except obviously males often go bald more than a woman would.
Rocker I hope you do come back one day as I've learned a lot from you, you've been informative and shared a lot of your feelings and perspectives very openly. I know for me it's hard to communicate very well with anyone on any of these issues because I don't know a lot about it, and in asking questions, I wouldn't know if I was expressing a certain nuance or not because of lack of knowledge of the areas discussed. Communication is hard but worthwhile especially for a reader like me. thanks.
posted on April 30, 2001 09:17:14 PM
NETTA!!!!! {{{{{{HUGS!!!}}}} Here I am
Enchanted!!! ******Smoooooooch!! Oh my god, I can't believe I didn't realize that was YOU at first, just cos it said EnchAnTed instead of enchanted. LOL! Please forgive my 3 brain cells.
As far as the hairline, my ex has had electrolysis on her face, etc and there are also hair IMPLANTS for those who had already lost some hair. It looks great, really works.
I always love when people ask questions, I think it's very open-minded and a way for all of us to learn. I also love a good heated debate. But it's when people disrespect other groups of people just cos they're not like them, or just immediately "dismiss" others - which I feel did happen here - (nonsense + silly = dismissal.) that really drives me crazy. Just plain not interested enough in other people to really find anything out at all. "Instant judgement".
The situation some of you brought up in which the doctor (or sometimes parents) just take it upon themselves to "decide" a baby's gender is another thing that really gets my blood boiling. This is something that I strongly feel should be LEFT ALONE until the child is old enough to make their own decisions. This happens to hermaphrodites, and to people which are called "intersex", which is very complex, because they are often of both genders or lean more towards one than another, sometimes it's about chromosomes more than actual physical anatomy that you can see, and again, the doctors just say "This is a problemm so I'm going 'fix' it". The real problem is that the doctor has a problem with it!! And so the doctor "fixes" nothing - and instead, creates a life time of problems for this innocent baby who grows up feeling something is wrong or has been taken away. If only we would let people alone and let them make their own decisions. Live and let live.
posted on April 30, 2001 09:28:03 PM
MYBIDDNESS!!!!!! ********* I missed you!!! How are you?? (How is the not you-know-whatting going?!?!?!?)
As far as I know, none of the FtMs I know have had facial surgery. Taking testosterone makes facial hair grow, and next thing ya know, most trannieboys look so masculine, they don't seem to need surgery. It is something I am curious about myself every day... I would love to try it but ya can't reverse its affects if you find it's really not for you. If I ruined my singing voice (testosterone deepens your voice) I don't think I would ever get over it.
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on Apr 30, 2001 09:30 PM ]
posted on April 30, 2001 09:36:10 PM
Not having ovaries also makes facial hair appear. Trust me, I know. I have this ONE LITTLE hair that keeps popping up on the right side of my upper lip. Just one. Bugs me.Mayeb I should let it grow and put beads on it?
posted on April 30, 2001 09:53:56 PM
Heres the stick and heres the marshmellow bag. You will have to start the flames to get them toasted, lol. Im heading for bed. Dont eat all of 'em though...save a few for me
posted on April 30, 2001 10:04:39 PM
GASP!!!!!!!! TWINSOFT!!!!!
XOXOXOXOXOXOXOXO
smoooooch smooooooch smooooooooch!!!!!!!!
Twin, how do ya think I'd look in your beard?? heehee
Rocker
posted on April 30, 2001 10:11:14 PM
(I've been meaning to get back to this thread but haven't had time to give it the attention it deserves).
But I'm curious to find out whether people will ever really accept people that dress up as the opposite sex because they usually don't look like the sex they're portraying. It seems to me like the person is trying to call attention to themselves by trying too hard (JMO).
kraftdinner,
One thing I've noticed is that mainstream America is far more accepting of a transsexual if she (or he) appears not only credible in their new persona but attractive. Watch any of the daytime talk shows (Springer doesn't count) and gauge the reactions of the audience when presented with an attractive transsexual and one who looks like every day is Halloween. There's a marked difference. They applaud the beautiful one (a fine example of this is transsexual Carolyn Cossey, a.k.a. Tula, who has been in a James Bond film and on the cover of Playboy; the audience ate her up), but they snicker at the one who looks like a police decoy. Now that it's become fashionable for talk show audiences to speak insultingly to the guests, some people also feel it's their duty to stand up and "dress down" the unattractive transsexual with hurtful comments about their appearance. The pretty ones get comments of support and "You go, girl!" Nobody stops to think that despite outward appearances both transsexuals, the pretty one and the ungainly one, suffer from the same syndrome.
I see a little of the same phenomenon right in this thread -- not the part about ridiculing unattractive transsexuals, no, but the part about celebrating the attractive ones. Take the people who have shared their personal associations with transsexuals in this thread. Note their emphasis on how attractive the transsexuals in their lives are:
First, rocker wrote:
And yes there are many transsexual women who are fiercely feminine and gorgeous and STUNNING (if I can remember how to post a picture you can all see my stunning ex...... god knows I have EXCELLENT taste in women.)
Then nettak wrote:
I have a nephew who knew from the age of about 6 that he wanted to be a woman. He had councilling and it did not matter what anyone had to say on the matter he knew in his heart that he was a she, and she went on to be a truely stunning woman, and someone to be proud of.
And tabbinosity wrote:
I saw her recently, and she's happy and looking fabulous. Who am I to judge?
I'm not faulting rocker, nettak or tabbinosity for their statements. I'm sure they're being truthful and had no reason to consider whether they might as forthcoming and "proud" of these transsexuals if they looked like David Crosby in a dress (and maybe they would still feel the same way, I have no way of knowing). But it's something to think about. From what I've seen, people in general are more apt to have positive feelings about transsexuals who are attractive, and to scorn those who aren't. It's like they're able to cast aside the reality of the transsexuality and instead concentrate on the good looks, whereas transsexuals who aren't very convincing are like open sores, reminders that nature can be a cruel, cruel thing.
Is it any different than the way society at large treats people? Yes and no. No because in our society attractive people have always had an easier time finding acceptance, jobs, friends, etc. Yes different because in our society, though a person may be unattractive, he or she can still find acceptance, jobs, friends, etc., it just takes more time and effort. But an unattractive transsexual is s*** out of luck. They become the butt of jokes, the target of persecution and discrimination. They often lose everything, including family and friends. The best they can really hope for from society is a grudging tolerance.
You also ask:
And this is a very honest question, but do you know of any men that want to look like/be women that DON'T go for the make-up and hair-do's?
There are. I know of at least one that became a nun after surgical reassignment surgery. And I know there are others. But why shouldn't transsexuals go for the make-up and the hairstyles? Real women do. In fact, the media and marketers drill into everyone that an essential part of being a woman is looking as good as you can. How? With makeup and hair. Transsexuals are just following the lead. But then again, some also use hair and makeup to draw attention away from more obvious flaws.
I think your question has more to do with transvestites though, who are notorious for overdoing hair and makeup, miniskirts, ultra high heels, etc. But remember, the transvestites' interest in presenting themselves as females is fetish-oriented, so it's not surprising that they would they would overdo the feminine accoutrements that excite them, i.e., hair, makeup, and clothes.
Try and be a bit more tactful with your posts please.
Edited to take out the smiley, and to add, to Jlpiece - that indeed referring to others as 'wackos' is offensive, and a violation of our CG's. Please keep that in mind prior to posting again or your posting privileges will be in jeopardy.
Sara
[email protected]
[ edited by SaraAW on Apr 30, 2001 11:06 PM ]
posted on April 30, 2001 11:01:32 PM
Hi Spaz, I should say a big sorry for what I put about my niece, she would have kicked my butt for the way I phrased my words. LOL What I should have said was that I would have been proud of her no matter what she looked like. But as luck had it she is stunning to look at, even without makeup and hair styling. She just has a petite and a very feminine look, it makes many women jealous just to look at her.
I have over the years met a lot of Tanya's friends and let me tell you they are not all pretty women. Some of them are God awful ugly, and that is being polite, but then you get that with non trannies as well, I have a friend that was born a women, and lives as a straight women and she is scary to look at, so a none pretty male to female should make no difference. The only thing that I would say, and I have said to some trannies that I have met is that they do not go overboard with the make up as it can make them look ridiculous. One woman that I met through Tanya , insisted on wearing blue blush and that only highlighted the harshness of her face.
Now with the comments that Rocker, myself and Tabbinosity made, I think that all of us would have been equally as proud our friends and family regardless of what they look like.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:04:09 PM
The mods will handle JL and I can just stay outta THAT one right?
Spaz - I agree with you 100% re: celebrating attractive transsexuals and ridiculing unattractive ones: I am sorry if I sounded guilty of that as well, but in fact, I only said it in reference to THIS post:
"So far, all signs point to the fact that she's a female," said Mary Hilliard McMillan, the pageant spokeswoman. "She has a birth certificate that says she is a woman and she is one of the most stunning women I've ever seen. She's very feminine."
So my point was, if being stunning and feminine were the determining factors in being a woman-born-woman (as if!!!) - then plenty of trans women can certainly win that "contest" hands down. (And I certainly agree beauty pageants are a lotta crap anyway but that's another story.) I had started to write another post I never finished unfortunatey, I will try to remember it now. I wanted to say as far as people being able to "tell" - ya know, my Dad used to say "I can tell a lesbian a mile away!" Uuuh DUH Dad, HEELLOOOOO?!?!?!? LOL There I was living in his house till I was 19 and um it took him YEEEEARS to notice!! And even then, it was probably my girlfriend and I wearing identical rings and being inseperable that gave us away. LOL!!! Maybe he meant he could tell certain women "looked" like lesbians - what do lesbians look like to him?? Some are more "out" and obvious than others, some WANT to be seen more obviously. Just as some Trans women may not "pass" as well (ugh there's that "pass" word again) - and maybe we can "tell" they are Trans, but no that should not mean we should respect them any less!!!! And ya know, beauty is all in the eye of the beholder anyway. I think my ex is stunning, and yet there are people who have "outed" her and ridiculed her, and okay so maybe they could "tell". Big deal.... she was beautiful to me. I sure was in love with her. Sigh.
Rocker
posted on April 30, 2001 11:06:02 PM
No need to apologize to me, nettak. There was nothing inherently wrong with what you said. I just used it to illustrate a trend of society as a whole.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:10:47 PMThe mods will handle JL and I can just stay outta THAT one right?
Nope, rocker. Apparently jlpiece gets a free ride on this one. Told to be "a bit more tactful." Not a lot. Just a bit. Even gets a smiley. Wonder how a comment like that would have been handled on a thread that wasn't about alternative lifestyles?
posted on April 30, 2001 11:12:56 PM
What I find interesting is that women who have sex-changes are rarely mentioned--and they *are* out there. The big "uproar" involves mean becoming women. It says something about our society that it is somehow OK for women to become men but that men becoming women isn't. The same goes for clothing. Women wear men's clothes all the time--men's jeans, tennis shoes, shirts, ties, etc. etc. etc. And that is OK. Sexual identity has nothing to do with it (at least for the majority). Let a man wear women's clothes and he's automatically "strange" or a "pervert."
[ edited by JLPiece on Apr 30, 2001 11:04 PM ]