posted on April 30, 2001 11:16:32 PM
How timely this conversation is--NBC News just did a story on a bill being considered in San Francisco that would have sex change operations covered by insurance (up to $50,000). It would cover sex *change* but not any "cosmetic" surgeries that a person having a sex change might want.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:19:16 PM
Bunni - women who have sex-changes are rarely mentioned--and they *are* out there
Here I am right here!
Well, okay, so I may not be an SRS candidate, I really am not sure yet.
(And yes I am a confused whacko. And damn proud of it. At least I can talk about it. How sad to be confused and imperfect and think you're hiding it from everyone.)
Rocker
posted on April 30, 2001 11:21:20 PM
Hi, Jan. You in a beard? Ummm.... (That song is running through my head, you know the one ... On the cover of the Rolling Stone ...)
Try a fake beard first. Then decide. Shaving every day's a beotch.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:33:20 PM
Female-to-male transsexuals are more rare; no one seems to know why.
The incidence of male-to-female transsexuals is thought to be 1 in 10,000. I've never seen a ratio for F-T-M.
On one hand, female-to-male transsexuals "pass" better because the hormones they take build on the existing body frame. Muscle size increases, they become bulkier, hairier, the voice drops ...
For men who want to be women, there's no easy way to eliminate the bulk that's already there. Or to erase the changes in the bone structure brought on by hormones in puberty (such as the prominence of the occipital ridge above the eyes, the heavier kneecap, etc). Voices can't be changed by surgery, as the thickening of the vocal chords that occurs at puberty is irreversible. Almost all body hair has to be removed (rather than grown, in the case of the female-to-male) ...
But apparently the male-to-female does have one advantage over his female-to-male counterpart -- better results in terms of genital reconstruction. Doctors can create a fairly realistic looking vagina in a male body, but medical science has yet to build anything on a female body that looks like a penis, let alone functions as one.
I knew a female-to-male transsexual from a philosophy chatroom about five years ago. He was transitioning and was very depressed because he had just come home from a local support group meeting where another F-T-M had shown him his newly constructed "penis." I gather it wasn't very realistic looking. I remember he said to me, aghast, "My God, Spaz, it looked like a burrito!"
Needless to say, I haven't been able to eat a burrito since.
posted on April 30, 2001 11:46:56 PM
There are two different types of genital surgery for Female to Male Transsexuals: A matoidioplasty (which um reconstructs what is already there which I can not get graphic about here I guess) and a phalloplasty which looks pretty damn real. It takes skin from your arm and actually molds it into a ... well there ya go. And it is functional, but, it's true the FtM surgery is NOT as well done as the MtF surgery. Oh - I wonder WHY??? ("Gasp!! NO second class citizen gets to be a MAN! NO no no - that's only for us REAL men! We only do surgery to make WOMEN. We can move you down a notch in our culture but not up. That's only for MEN MEN MEN.) Get my drift?? Spaz did you see the movie "Southern Comfort"? Just curious to see what you think of it.
Rocker
Southern Comfort? The one about the guys in the swamp? I don't remember it well, but I think Powers Boothe starred in the one I saw. For awhile in high school I had the movie poster hanging in my room because I thought it looked pretty cool and I got them for free because my friend managed the local cinema.
posted on May 1, 2001 12:00:22 AM
LOL Nope Spaz, same title, different movie I guess. I just found out the one I saw hasn't been released yet. It's about an FTM, Robert Eads, and the Southern Comfort conference. (Trans conference.) It already won some awards from Sundance and I think they will be airing it on HBO. Check it out, go to google.com and search Robert Eads Southern Comfort if you want a quick overview. (And my "stunning Ex" is in it! LOL!)
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on May 1, 2001 12:01 AM ]
I checked it out. Nature in all its wicked irony -- female-to-male dies of ovarian cancer.
One of the reviews had this line, which reminded me of the story you shared about your ex, when the guy yelled "Hey f**got, first I'm gonna f*** you, then I'm gonna kill you!" (which, by the way, I found very disturbing):
The line was:
But they privately cross gender lines, and so belong to perhaps the last minority society quietly grants permission to hate.
posted on May 1, 2001 05:07:01 AM
Unattractive people of any sexuality are often made fun of in our society.
I'm still over my head in this conversation, so just reading, reading, and thinking.
I've identified part of my lack of knowledge, it's lack of exposure. I don't really know anyone other than rocker or nettak that I know well enough to ask questions of (and thanks goodness I can talk to them about pretty much anything), can only recall one or two occasions that I've met or seen transvestites or drag queens in person, I don't read Playboy, I rarely watch any talk shows, and I have no interest in beauty pageants.
for the first time in my life I feel I've had a sheltered existence, especially compared to Spaz's level of knowledge.
I didn't know it was still referred to as alternative lifestyles though... somehow implying choice, not born that way? Am I reading it right or is it too early in the morning?
perhaps jlpiece should have received an informal warning not a "nudge" it's pretty clear that was an insult to AW posters on this thread.
posted on May 1, 2001 06:02:12 AM
Morning, all! Glad to have woken up to see this thread back to life, and in a much nicer atmosphere! I knew we could play nice without being moderated
rocker:
I've written off my lack of tolerance for "immediate judgement" as a Leo thing. We live in a judgemental world *sigh* Confused? I think everybody is to a certain extent ~ some people are just more aware of it than others! (jmho)
Spaz:celebrating the "attractive ones"
We got off on a tangent. Posters are responding to the title of the thread as well as the big picture. But I slept through that part of the thread!
There's a woman who works at the customer service desk at a store I frequent. She's not attractive (actually borderline homely), but boy is she stunning! About 6' tall, huge hands, tremendous feet, deep voice, strong facial structure. I bet she would have loved a more feminine "exterior" to match her obviously feminine "interior". Does she "look" like a girl? I don't care. She "feels" like a girl so she is one! I can't begin to tell you how much respect I have for her! Maybe that is what makes her "stunning" to me. I would be proud if she were my daughter, sister, mother, friend, etc. How difficult it must have been to grow up male when you are really female! Adolescence was hard enough without adding to the mix!
The "choice" perspective is hard for me to accept.
I'm attracted to males. I was born that way. A cute little girl, I was a bit of a tomboy. That tomboy is still inside of me, although I am a heterosexual woman. Not a "girlie girl", but close. (I still coach my kid's little league )
question:
If more of that "tomboy stuff" were inside of me, then what? Nobody decided how much "girl stuff" and "boy stuff" we have inside. Am I totally naive or is that reality? If it's reality, than why don't others realize it? If it's naive, help me out!!!
(terminology chosen to keep it light!)
posted on May 1, 2001 07:14:31 AM
I have been very interested in this topic and the approach to answering or anticipating questions. I think it is a real help for those of us whose contact with folks of varying persuasions is limited. I realize also that this subject is really close to the hearts of some of the posters here.
This said I want you to know that I have a "finely honed sense of the ridiculous" and even in the most serious threads there is that little glimmer of humor if your antennae are tuned in.....so here I go...ready for slings and arrows. But, please remember I am aware and do care about the topic.
Bunnicula stated:
Let a man wear women's clothes and he's automatically "strange" or a "pervert."
Here's where the humor comes in: The only perversion is to have to dress like a woman. That is "perverse" even for a Natural Born Woman.
I'll show you...let us begin our dressing.
Put both arms behind your back with your wrists bent and blindly try to make
hooks and eyes meet so that you can strangle yourself in a "MAN" made item called a brassiere (underwire is the most fun). So that you can hike those little rascals up to look really perky...God forbid, you shouldn't defy gravity on its best day. Then just to show off how athletic you are, standing on one foot, lift your leg to waist height, point your toes and delicately slip your foot and leg into one half of a pair of panty hose.....but only to mid calf, because now you must reassign and shift your weight and delicately lift the other leg to waist height point toes and insert in the other opening. Now gracefully work them up both legs to crotch, wriggle to make fit and pull up to waist height. Doesn't that feel comfy??? Especially on a 90 degree day with the humidity close enough to drown you if you inhale deeply. We are not done yet, let's put on one of those cute little form fitting outfits that zip up the back...over your head, wriggle, wriggle, wriggle (worked up a sweat yet...the best is yet to come).
Now reach behind yourself at waist height, bend wrist, grasp zipper and move your arm upwards to your mid shoulder area...isn't that special...but remember you want that little sucker closed all the way so take your arm, extend it over your head, bend it at the elbow do a contortionist move and grasp the zipper tab and finish closing it that last two inches. If your make up has started to run...just refresh it (that should only take another 10 minutes to get that natural look) If you are lucky this is a sleeveless number and you can also reapply deodorant without undressing. Now to finish the look, find the prettiest pair of pumps, point toes, insert foot...repeat. Now stand up..remember you are a "LADY" do not swear or scream as your toes seat themselves into the pointiest part of the shoe...remember those high heels make the calf look soooo sexy. (Another "man" made design.) I think I've covered just about everything of importance in completing the female "dress." Scuse me while I go put on my slacks and sweat shirt!
If I have forgotten any fun stuff...just fill in the blanks.
posted on May 1, 2001 08:31:56 AM
I have been thinking about all that has been said here and had a thought this morning that I wanted to "put out there". As I stated earlier, I have 2 very good friends that are male (born male), and both are gay. Neither have any desire to change their bodies and said most of the gay homosexuals they hang out with (friends and gay bars) also feel the same way. Yes, they dress as women, but that is their job, as they are female impersonators and only do it for shows to which they get a huge chunk of money for each show. Now, since this thread has come up, I have discussed some of it with one of them and he agreed with the thought I had, so here it is for you to digest and think on and give your input if you choose.
People who have same sex desires and want to change their bodies so they seem like they are heterosexual will not be "looked" at as an abnormalty and thus feel good about themselves since it bothers THEM that they are ridiculed for being what they are. The new wave of transsexuals voicing strongly their needs and wants are pulling in gays who have no desire to be anything other than what they are...attraction to same sex. Homosexuality has been very common all thru the ages but only recently has the urge to CHANGE the body to SEEM more acceptable for pursuing those found more attractive (same sex) been the forefront of many gay leaders who are trying to speak for all and are not, because most gays have no desire to do any such thing
The bold above is mine and my friend's words. We are just talking out loud what was in our heads since I told him of this thread and the sometimes "strong" wording given by others who are trying to express themselves.
[ edited by HEPburn on May 1, 2001 08:34 AM ]
posted on May 1, 2001 08:37:18 AM
This thread has been very informative. It has really answered many questions that I wouldn't even know where to begin to look.
Spaz and nycrocker, thanks for answers that make it easy for all to understand.
zilvy~~ you forgot about the girdle/panty girdle for those of us who have a little (okay, maybe a lot) secretarial spread.
nycrocker~~ you make an equally attractive male or female!
posted on May 1, 2001 09:22:52 AM
Sorry for getting back so late, but I wanted to say to spaz that I totally agree with what you said a page back.......
The question I asked was a serious one and not about "good" looks as it may have seemed. I wanted to know why make-up, clothes, wigs, etc., are such an important part of this. If, for instance, a man felt like he was a woman inside, the transformation part seems to be the way he looks on the outside. Being a woman has nothing to do with the way a person looks, so I'm curious as to why these people want to draw attention to the fact that they aren't the gender they were born with by trying to "look" like the opposite sex. Like, "clothes doesn't make the person". (I hope I've explained this right ) It's something I'd like to be able to understand.
And "Hi" rocker!! It's nice to see you again. Hope you enjoyed my little treat. Nothing much but I sure thank-you again for everything . BTW, where did you go?
While there have always been a tiny minority of deluded gays (and deluded heterosexuals) among those seeking sexual reassignment surgery, the majority are in it because they want it, because they have always wanted it, from their earliest memories, from their childhoods when they would go to bed at night and pray to God to turn them into a girl (or boy) as they slept.
It is not like changing jobs. I can't imagine any gay man having his penis removed to be more "acceptable." Gay men like their penises. Transsexuals despise theirs.
Transsexuality is such a complex problem that I really think your friend does transsexuals a disservice by writing it off as being motivated by guilt or a way to make their homosexual desires "acceptable." What if someone suggested to your friend that the only reason he's gay is because he couldn't get a woman to go out with him? It's sort of along the same lines. It denies the truth of what's going on.
I don't know if this is where your friend is coming from or not, but there does exist a strong anti-transgender sentiment in the gay world -- to the extent that some don't want transsexuals, transvestites, etc., to be covered by any gay rights legislation. It seems to be a mixture of mainstream misunderstanding and rejection (ironic, coming from gays) combined with an unhealthy dose of territoriality. I've read commentary by people of this mindset, in which they scornfully dismiss transsexuality as an aberration of gay adjustment. They regard transsexuals as traitors because they don't "come out," but instead head for even deeper cover.
But how does your friend explain the sizeable contingent of men who become women so that they can continue life as lesbians? Attracted to women all their lives, they continue to be attracted to them in their new persona. Certainly there's no societal pressure on a man attracted to women to change his body, his life, to risk losing everything. And yet thousands do it every year, regardless.
Fortunately there's a screening process (not perfect, but better than none) that attempts to filter out people who apply for SRS for the wrong reasons. There's a mandatory transition period in which the SRS candidate has to live and work in their chosen sex for at least two years before they will be considered for surgery. It's thought that the rigors of making such a great upheaval in one's life, especially in the face of such considerable opposition from mainstream society, will separate the serious candidates from the ones applying for the wrong reasons.
Of course, the transition tradition is practiced only by American gender identity specialists. A person can still fly to Thailand, Mexico or Canada and get a quickie operation with a minimal or no transition requirement.
It's very bad news when someone who isn't a real transsexual has the operation. The regret afterwards can lead to suicide.
posted on May 1, 2001 10:35:42 AM, but there does exist a strong anti-transgender sentiment in the gay world -- to the extent that some don't want transsexuals, transvestites, etc., to be covered by any gay rights legislation. It seems to be a mixture of mainstream misunderstanding and rejection (ironic, coming from gays) combined with an unhealthy dose of territoriality. I've read commentary by people of this mindset, in which they scornfully dismiss transsexuality as an aberration of gay adjustment. They regard transsexuals as traitors because they don't "come out," but instead head for even deeper cover.
Out of "shrinking violet" mode briefly to say, that you've hit the nail on the head, Spaz. And better coming from you then me to get this out there, although I don't agree with the conclusion about "mainstream misunderstanding and rejection" on the part of the gay community. Better to say that the dissenters within the gay community look at transgendering as reorienting as heterosexual which of course is the "end result" of SRS. Gays see it as affirmation of heterosexuality rather than acceptance of their homosexuality. And therein lies the "rub" and the opposition to SRS within the Gay Community.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:48:13 AMGay men like their penises. Transsexuals despise theirs.
Spaz, of all the words and explanations, that one hit home. I understand alittle more now. My friend, his opinion is his alone, and being not of his mindset, I am still having a hard time understanding. being heterosexual myself, thats probably why its like hitting a brick wall when explaining to me. No wonder my friend has major eye rolls and sighs alot when I keep saying "but...but...if...if...why..."
posted on May 1, 2001 12:38:17 PMGays see it as affirmation of heterosexuality rather than acceptance of their homosexuality. And therein lies the "rub" and the opposition to SRS within the Gay Community.
Katy,
That makes sense -- what you're saying, I mean, not what the gay dissenters believe.
It's not about them. It's not about heterosexuality or homosexuality. It's about how a person feels about him or herself, how they react to the person in the mirror, whether they feel good about themselves and their bodies when they have sex, whether they feel like frauds in the roles of husband/father/son or wife/mother/daughter. It's about how they want people to treat them and react to them. It's about how they wish to express themselves to the rest of the world.
I've always thought the uneasy alliance between the gay/lesbian/bi lobby and the transgendered was unfortunate. In the last couple decades transgendered people have taken such pains to separate sexual identity from sexual preference in the eye of the public -- and then what happens? They link their sexual identity concerns with a faction whose whole agenda is expressing and protecting the right to sexual preference. Is it any wonder that in the year 2001 the public is still confused about the differences between the transgendered and gay/les/bi?
But the transgendered wanted/needed legal protection too, and probably their best bet of ever getting it was by joining hands with the gay/les/bi faction. I can't blame them, really. Any port in a storm and all that. However I think it seriously blurred the lines.
To further confuse things (and I'm going off on a tangent here) is the advent of the shemale -- the gay male who takes hormones and/or undergoes cosmetic surgery to enlarge his breasts, has electrolysis, facial surgery, etc., but who has no desire or intention of becoming a woman through sexual reassigment surgery (these are the type most often seen on Jerry Springer). They know they are men, they advertise that they are men ... But to the average person, the shemale could easily be confused with a transsexual pre-op, who undergoes the same procedures but for different reasons.
Unfortunately, daytime TV talk shows and other media (which have long been the only exposure the average person has to such individuals) have capitalized on the shemale/drag queen type because they're sassy and colorful and downright bitchy ... they're good theater. But in doing so have left behind the sincere transsexual who has no aspirations to being a diva but just an ordinary woman. Consequently when the public thinks "transsexual" now, a lot of them think of the shemale/drag queens on the talk shows.
It wasn't always like this. Back in the 70s and 80s, shows like Donahue, Sally Jesse Raphael, and Geraldo did shows about transsexuals which featured respectably-dressed, soft-spoken people who were there to patiently explain transsexualism to a public that had never been exposed to it before. Often their doctors or another gender identity specialist was included among the guests to provide the clinical viewpoint. These people did their best to give a favorable impression of transsexualism and they were generally well-received by the audience.
Now though the only ones you see are the strutting shemales and drag queens, who, while having every right to be themselves, are, in my opinion, playing into the hands of the people who create these sensationalized TV shows and unwittingly setting back public opinion of transsexuals by years.
Note: the "gay dissenters" I referred to don't represent the majority. Having experienced sexual discrimination, persecution and rejection themselves, many gays, lesbians and bisexuals are very supportive of the transgendered and their rights.
posted on May 1, 2001 12:48:39 PM
Just wanted to add that the older talk shows also used to feature female-to-male transsexuals -- whom you almost never see anymore.
posted on May 1, 2001 12:59:37 PM
LOL, James, I actually like Geraldo Rivera a lot. He can be alternately arrogant, pompous, even slimy in the eyes of some folks -- but he's a straight shooter and everything he has, has been hard won.
And yes, I watched Rivera Live on CNBC religiously during the OJ trial.
Geraldo says he was friends with Lennon. Did one of his more "righteous" Rivera Live shows on the eve of the decision whether to grant Mark David Chapman parole.
bunnicula,
Jay Leno was talking about what was going on in San Francisco. He said, "But when you think about it, do you really want the city picking up the tab for your sex change operation? After all, don't city jobs usually go to the lowest bidder?"
Then he added, "A lot of citizens think the city should not be paying for sex change operations, that it will be too costly. But those San Francisco city officials aren't dumb. They want to turn you into a woman so they can pay you 37% less than you were making as a man."
)