posted on May 1, 2001 07:42:30 PM
Toollady ah shucks Thank you
Enchanted I agree it is lack of exposure, which certainly is not YOUR fault. I believe we all need to be better informed/educated on this, but like Spaz has pointed out, the media only covers the "sensational", the "theatric", etc. I only learned all this in the past year or so when I 1. Started questioning my own gender, and 2. Started dating a Trans woman. The more I learned, the more I started to take my counseling in that direction too, as we don't have many counselors who are experienced with the TG commmunity. I feel pretty well qualified to see our Trans clients now.
Spaz, I would love to know more about your experience in this field and how you've had the good fortune to learn all this. If you are not comfortable saying, I will respect that. You are welcome to email me at [email protected] - if you want to, I would love to hear from you.
The ex and I have had an on-going feud with a "high proflie" Gay male activist here in NYC recently, regarding his insistance that SRS is for gay people who won't come out and would rather be seen as hetero, as has been mentioned here. That is just NOT the case most of the time. If it were, we have asked him, why would my ex have changed her gender to go out with women, when she could have been much more easily accepted as heterosexual. (As Spaz has also pointed out.) Somehow this guy keeps avoiding our question and just goes on with his rants. ?? He has pissed off a LARGE percentage of the LGBT Community here!! (Lesban Gay Bi Trans Community that is.)
Spaz, as far as my ex's part in the film, she is only in it for a brief moment, she is one of the people in the audience while Robert and his partner are speaking on the subject of intimacy. She was giving her opinion on the subject and they left it in the film. She is in quite a few Trans films, she is what I call a "high profile Trannie Girl" She is one of the head honcho counselors in another center here, and is called on constantly to do interviews and speeches, etc. Her speeches are absolutely brilliant. One of them made me cry my eyes out right there in the audience, and I am not the type to cry easily. She just got a call today to do some tv news show, but her gut told her it was going to be a panel of ANTI-Trans people vs. just her alone, and she was NOT about to go on the air to be ridiculed, so she turned it down. Just for the record, I call her "ex" only because I just don't want to put her real name here, although I doubt she would mind, it is her decision to be named or not. Maybe she will come in here and comment for herself. She has read this thread, and said to me "You go Jannie, you are so fierce" LOL!! She is also very impressed with you Spaz.
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on May 1, 2001 07:45 PM ]
posted on May 1, 2001 08:02:45 PM
I might be showing my ignorance again, but why call someone "tranny girl"? Isnt that derogatory in nature? Or, why advertise it? By advertising, I mean, why tell everyone? I didnt even know what tranny meant, until this thread. Someone once commented about the slang words for gays here in RT and I dont remember the responses exactly, but I do remember they werent good. Similar to what black folks want to be called. Black American, Black, Afro american, dark skinned. Nobody said the N-word was proper (of course). So my question is, why is it when you say "tranny girl", I feel funny? A squirm funny, like its not nice. Just asking.
posted on May 1, 2001 08:06:46 PM
squeezing my way into a serious discussion to say hello to hepburn and send a cyberhug to Rocker, 'cause I saw her around here right now.
That's a fair question. "Tranny" is slang used within the gender community, generally not considered offensive. I find it a little off-putting myself and not very complimentary but that could simply be because "tranny" was a word that my car freak friends in high school used to describe their transmissions. "Gotta get the Camaro into the shop. Had it on the road Sunday and the tranny was slippin'."
But your question also leads me to a question of my own about an aspect of the transsexual experience that I don't fully understand and can't get a satisfactory answer to. Maybe Rocker or her ex (hi Ex!) could share some insight.
Here's the thing: transsexuals spend their lives dreaming about being the opposite sex. They fantasize about being received by society as a bona fide member of that sex. Some of them (but not all) find the courage, the personal strength and the financial resources to try to change their lives, to try become the person they feel they are inside. Some actually make it over the wall, and, as some in this thread have noted, land on the other side as reasonably attractive people.
But from what I have read and seen, a large majority of transsexuals (male-to-female, anyway) don't really make it all the way into the world they desire. They don't become ordinary women, wives, girlfriends ... Instead they settle into a subculture I can only describe as a gender ghetto, populated by other transsexuals, transgenders, gays, lesbians, bi's, etc. Their friends are other transsexuals, etc., they live in "gay" neighborhoods of cities, they hang out in trans/gay/bi clubs, many of them work in the sex industry (a survey I saw a couple years ago said that 50% of all employed transsexuals are in the sex industry; but it's only fair to note that often this is the only employment they can find). As for self-identification, they frequently don't describe themselves as "women" but as "transsexual women." Some go so far as to get involved in activism (Transsexual Menace) or regional support groups.
I just don't get it. I thought the idea was to get to the other side and vanish into the mix, to put their male past behind them, to forget it like a bad dream. So why do they opt instead to remain in the twilight world of sexual ambiguity? Or is it a choice at all? Are they relegated to the subculture because the mainstream won't accept them as full-fledged women? Is the dream a lie? Instead of becoming women do they really just become a third sex? Or are there some who transition completely and disappear into the mainstream, never looking back? I'm guessing the answer to my last question must be yes, but you never hear about them (perhaps for the very reason that they have been successful and a large part of that success is discretion). But even if they do exist, they must be far more scarce than the great many who find themselves stranded just this side of the promised land.
You're right. Remember I said I haven't been able to get a satisfactory answer -- well, that was part of the answer I received when I've asked the question of transsexuals in the past. But to my mind it doesn't seem to sufficiently answer why they would endure so much only to stop short of the ultimate goal. I guess I want to know, do they stop short by choice? Or because there are obstacles preventing them from going further?
It's gratifying to hear that you're getting something positive out of this. Perhaps if you meet a gender dysphoric person in the future, this thread will have helped to make things go a little easier for both of you.
No, no, don't be quiet. This thread has delivered a lot of information precisely because people like you have been interested enough to keep the discussion going with good questions and observations.
posted on May 1, 2001 10:05:44 PMSpaz You may not realize it but the time that you and Rocker have spent here patiently and painstakingly explaining things that most of us would never be able to find answers to will undoubtedly result in the type of positive ripple effect that people sometimes cause in other people's lives without ever realizing it or seeing it for themselves. You and Rocker haven't just helped a handful of people in a chat room... it's much bigger than that, imo.
Thanks to both of you. Personally, I've been very relieved and happy to see this thread go for so long and remain almost totally civil and respectful... that's nice to see. Not paranoid anywhere else but here!
posted on May 1, 2001 10:06:09 PM
Well, in that case!
Here are a few random thoughts:
1) Fear of the unknown. Since the transsexual knows no other lifestyle (for lack of a better word), they stick with what is familiar. I would liken it to moving to another country. Sure is scary exploring that whole new world!
2)Fear of rejection
3)Lack of confidence in the transsexual's new self.
posted on May 1, 2001 10:38:38 PM
HEP The only way I can think of explaining this clearly is to say it's all in the "attitude". A lot of us (not ALL) in the LGBT Community refer to ourselves as "dykes" "Queers" etc.... we have taken these labels away from being derogatory and we say them with pride. However, when a car full of guys drove by the LGBT Center and shouted at me "Hey ya f****** QUEER!" You can certainly tell they were not saying it in an empowering way. They meant to insult me. If they had been big enough to hang around instead of burning rubber outta there, my response would've been "Yes I am Queer, do YOU have a problem with that?" (Cos I sure don't.) It's not hard to tell the difference between an insult and something said with pride or support. My Trans friends and I all use the word Trannie. Should I meet a Trans person who takes offense in this, I will not say it to her/him.
As far as "why advertise" - ugh - this is something trans AND gay & lesbian people have ALWAYS had to deal with. You want to see "ADVERTISING"? Look at almost EVERYTHING around you in our culture...billboards, television (although there are finally some token gay characters), Hallmark cards, what kids are taught in school, etc etc the list is endless - and notice how much of it all speaks to/targets heterosexuals,women born women, and men born men. It all makes an assumption that that is what we all are and what we all should be. Lemme tell ya, it's no picnic to live your whole life as if you are on the outside looking in, you don't count, you're invisible, you're some kind of freak, you have no legal rights. It is our culture and our society's way to keep perpetuating this. The rest of us are constantly oppressed and when we come out to be OURselves and speak OUR minds, we are the ones accused of "advertising". One woman gave me attitude once cos I was wearing a necklace with a double women's symbol on it. She accused me of advertising. Well, she doesn't NEED to wear a "heterosexual" symbol because most people already assume she is heterosexual. How do we meet others like ourselves with all the assumptions we are burdened with every day? Guess what, we HAVE to speak up, because you guys are already assumed to be who you are, but we are not. You guys already HAVE your rights, we do NOT. And I am talking about basic civil rights here. Just for ONE example, do you realize I am not legally allowed to get married? And do you know if I had a partner from another country, we would not be able to live together? One of us could be deported and there goes the relationship. This cannot happen to you because you have the legal right to get married. AND - I am supposed to pay taxes and serve jury duty and do all this crap as a "citizen".... a citizen who DOESN'T have the same rights as other citizens. Does this sound fair to you? So are we advertising? Or do we just strive for equal time and equal rights? There is a BIG difference. Cos right now I'm afraid there is only "Liberty and justice.... for SOME".
And regarding your question Spaz, I know Trans people from both sides of that coin. A friend of mine recently moved to Oregon to start her life all over in a new job and a new city where no one will ever know she was born male or that she is a trans woman. This is someone who, as you described, has dissapeared into the mainstream. This is what she wanted, and this is what makes her happy, so I wish her well. On the other hand, there are other Trans women like my ex who don't need to hide their past like some dirty secret. I think much to their credit, they come out and speak out for the rights of other trans people. There are laws that need to be changed and bills that need to be passed to give trans people the same rights as other people. Thank god there are these brave Trans people NOT dissapearing into the mainstream, which kinda says in a way "Okay, I got what I need, you're all on your own, see ya, bye." Sometimes I get very angry at other lesbians and gays who stay in the closet cos I am always out here lobbying for one thing or another, like marriage rights. (Pretty funny considering I don't even have a partner! LOL!!) I can really see this from both sides. But I personally do lean more towards not dissapearing, and being out to continue the fight. Cos it's all got a long way to go.
Yes a lot of LGBT people do stay in the "ghetto" - sometimes it is where you are forced to be, because if you are NOT "perfect stunning gorgeous" human beings, there is no place else you are accepted. As you said Spaz, some cannot get jobs anymore or have their own families anymore. Then again, sometimes people stay in that underworld because you don't walk away from the only people who really were "your family" and accepted you when no one else would. Sometimes the wars we go through together bring us and keep us together, ya know? And then again, sometimes it's just plain fun and exciting and this is our world and we like it.
posted on May 1, 2001 10:43:32 PM
I had to run back in here again to give SMOOOOOOOCHES to MyBiddness and Enchanted cos they don't mind these little lesbian/trannieboy kisses.
Rocker
posted on May 1, 2001 10:49:58 PM
Thanks for the honest reply, rocker. I do appreciate it. I'm sure you realize that by now.
One thing though:
there are other Trans women like my ex who don't need to hide their past like some dirty secret.
I never said, intimated, or even hinted that a transsexual's past life be considered a dirty secret -- only wondered whether keeping it in the past might facilitate mainstream integration for some.
You sound angry with your friend who moved to Oregon. But I don't understand why. Becoming a woman (or a man, as the case may be), a mainstream, functional, fully-accepted woman, is what transsexualism is supposed to be about.
posted on May 1, 2001 10:59:24 PM
[i]They want to turn you into a woman
so they can pay you 37% less than you were making as a man.[/i]
Years ago (at least 4) I was watching a program (Discovery, A & E, one of those) and they had the story of a man who became a woman:
She got a new job, but it was the exact same position/level (just new company). She had the same experience she had when she had a penis, but she earned less as a woman!
I'm reading backwards, but wanted to throw that in.....so far this has been very interesting.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:00:24 PM
Hey Rocker! Ya big smooooooocher you! LOL
I'm glad to see you came back in and that you let some of that anger go by the wayside. I think that 95% of the posters here are genuinely asking questions and never meant to offend... of course there is that pesky 5%... Anyway, you've given a lot of really helpful insight... huge thanks for that.
So, are ya raking in the big bucks and making em book ya a year in advance. I'm still listening to your songs.... you're gonna be a BIG, BIG, REALLY BIG star one day!
And on the declining side of the scale, I know of another male-to-female transsexual who owned his own company as a male, but got taken to the cleaners by a prejudiced judge during divorce proceedings, lost the company, the house, just about everything ... Wound up an aging female on fry duty at McDonalds, ridiculed by the teenagers who worked there (aside from the cruel jokes, they would pelt her with hamburger buns when she turned her back). Same judge also had her thrown in jail for non-payment of alimony, even though there was no way she could pay it after losing everything and having to work at McDonalds (the only job anyone would give her).
posted on May 1, 2001 11:16:17 PM
OMG Spaz that just about rips my heart out. I don't know what to say, it sickens me to hear thing like that happening, yet I know that they do happen on an all to regular basis.
I also wanted to say thank you for all the information you have shared with us. Rocker has shared things with me before, but the two of you together has been a real insight for many of us. So I am throwing you both a big hug and a heartfelt thank you.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:16:58 PM
lol Spaz I didn't imply that YOU implied it was a dirty secret. They are my own words.
No honestly I am really not angry at my friend who moved to Oregon. I do want her to be happy, I adore her, and this is what makes her happy. And I DO wish her well!
At the same time, I love my other Trans friends' willingness to "out" themselves as trans so that they can do some good and fight for things that need to be fought for. (Although I have to say, at times I wonder if some of them would prefer to dissapear too, and just don't cos they don't think they "pass" well enough. Hmmmm.) Anyway, I always think that the more people that are "out", the more society will see it and be exposed to it and LEARN about it and be perfectly WILLING to learn about it - like right here on this thread, where most people are asking questions and saying with an open mind "Oh, I didn't know that" and "This is a good thing to learn about". Then, when everyone is exposed to these issues, it won't be such a big deal anymore. Just like being gay is not half as big a deal as it used to be like back in the 50s and 60s when gay bars were raided and you could be arrested, beaten etc. I see Transsexuals as VERY VERY brave, strong people, because they are true to themselves and go through that transition at ALL costs and damn it can be one HIGH price to pay. I like to see people feeling PROUD of who they are, knowing that their past is part of what makes them such strong people today, and their stories are so worth telling. By the way, GREAT movie to see: "Boys Don't Cry".
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on May 1, 2001 11:19 PM ]
posted on May 1, 2001 11:26:28 PM
Hi again MyBidd!!!!!
Yes I totally agree with you that 95% of the people on this thread don't offend at all. And I LOVE when people ask questions... THAT is what shows an open mind and willingness to learn and to have compassion and empathy for other human beings.
posted on May 1, 2001 11:34:57 PM
Netta by the way, thank YOU for sharing that info about your own family member. See that's what I mean about more people coming out and sharing their stories. It really really does make a GREAT difference in dispelling some of the ugly myths and getting rid of the bigotry in the world.
Did you guys ever hear that saying, I wish I could remember it exactly:
"When they came to get the Jews, I didn't stand up because I'm not Jewish.
When they came to get the Blacks, I didn't stand up because I'm not Black.
When they came to get the Gays, I didn't stand up because I'm not Gay.
Now they're coming to get me, and there is no one left to stand up for me."
Rocker
[ edited by nycrocker on May 1, 2001 11:35 PM ]
posted on May 1, 2001 11:41:22 PMTranssexuals as VERY VERY brave, strong people, because they are true to themselves and go through that transition at ALL costs and damn it can be one HIGH price to pay.
Higher than you might imagine. Just found this on a web search:
posted on May 1, 2001 11:49:30 PM
I had not heard that one before Jan, but it just proves a point. We need to stand together and fight bigotry in whatever form it shows it's face.
She is one of the head honcho counselors in another center here, and is called on constantly to do interviews and speeches, etc. Her speeches are absolutely brilliant. One of them made me cry my eyes out right there in the audience, and I am not the type to cry easily. She just got a call today to do some tv news show, but her gut told her it was going to be a panel of ANTI-Trans people vs. just her alone, and she was NOT about to go on the air to be ridiculed, so she turned it down. Just for the record, I call her "ex" only because I just don't want to put her real name here, although I doubt she would mind, it is her decision to be named or not. Maybe she will come in here and comment for herself. She has read this thread, and said to me "You go Jannie, you are so fierce" 
[ edited by nycrocker on May 1, 2001 07:45 PM ]