posted on May 22, 2001 05:12:50 PM new
My wife worked with a woman who referred to birth by the LeMans method. We
could always picture this pregnant woman trapped in the back of a speeding race car.
She would entertain the other workers with amusing antidotes - which never seemed to
cure them being afflicted with her speech.
Every third sentence would commit as it says in My Fair Lady - "Cold blooded murder
of the English tongue."
posted on May 23, 2001 03:54:24 AM new
The spelling error I always notice is when a seller 'excepts' a given type of payment (instead of 'accepts').
And I strongly agree that grammer is important. You don't often see people who mangle the England language making over $30,000/year (unless they have their own business and/or inherited their money). Many people (including myself) equate poor grammer with stupidity. I'll grant that it's not always true but - if you have only a few minutes to form an impression of someone (think 'job interview') - poor grammer on their part is a big mark against them.
posted on May 23, 2001 08:07:41 AM new
Recently, a poster on the Ebay Outlook forum complained in a long
and rambling tyrade about spelling and grammatical errors that her buyers were using. In addition to attacking spelling and grammar errors
she questioned their IQ.
But, in her message she made nearly every common error that has been listed in this thread.
We have to remember that English is a second language for some posters
and their inability to spell or write well is not an indicator of intelligence or income.
It's ludicrous to judge a persons worth based on their grammatical proficiency. It reminds me of a quote by Martin Luther King of a demonstrator in the desegregation of the south. When someone inquired about this woman's condition after a long walk for this cause, she replied with ungrammatical profundity,
posted on May 23, 2001 08:31:11 AM new
Spelling, pronunciation and grammar do matter.
It matters to those who consider how one expresses oneself an indication of more important traits. Education, intelligence, attention to detail, ability to recognize errors and to self correct. Consideration for those you are attempting to communicate with.
I think that people who take the attitude that "errors are all right since I am getting the gist of my message across" when they are corrected are mostly showing that they are mentally lazy. As such I don't think I would favor them in a job interview over another person who might have lesser qualifications but who exhibits the personality traits that any employer would desire in an employee.
Thank you for pointing out my error, Wisegirl.
To err is human, to edit divine... Heheh
[ edited by codasaurus on May 24, 2001 12:26 PM ]
posted on May 23, 2001 08:55:34 AM new
I tend to agree with Codasaurus.
Having said that, I must also make the observation that self-policing of one's own writing is easier said than done. Codasaurus, I'm sure the moment you hit "post reply" you probably realized, too late, that you had a noun-verb agreement problem in your first sentence. An earlier post from Barbarake misspelled "grammar" ("grammer".
I empathize with the embarrassment both of you surely feel, for I'm a college alumni magazine editor. As much as I read and write, I still make mistakes. Because it's very hard to proofread your own material, my assistant and I read one another's articles. It takes time to do this, but once it's printed and it's wrong you can't do anything about it.
A comment to HJW: I agree with you, too, concerning English being a second language for some posters. At least they are trying --- unlike some Americans, who expect the entire world to speak English.
posted on May 23, 2001 09:06:10 AM new
I agree that correct grammar and spelling make a big impression on the listener or reader regarding the perceived intelligence of the speaker or writer. I know this is the underlying problem I have with my daughter-in-law’s misuse of to see and to do. However, the beauty of this language is its dynamic nature. What was incorrect at one time is now considered acceptable. Our marvelously complicated language adapts, adopts, assimilates and absorbs from so many other languages, cultures, places, and our constant misuse of it, that it certainly doesn’t get boring. Whether I like it or not, someday “I seen” and “I done” will probably be acceptable. Maybe my daughter-in-law is a trendsetter and I just don’t know it!
As much as I read and write, I still make mistakes.
For me, the fact that people make mistakes is not a problem- everybody does at one time or another. What does bother me is when people choose not to learn from them, and brush them off with an attitude that seems to say "I've learned enough already, and I don't want to be troubled with learning any more".
posted on May 23, 2001 10:54:15 AM new
Mrpotatoheadd, I agree. But I wonder if to learn or not to learn is a conscious choice --- for some people. I live in a small town in southwest Virginia that is unique because it has two colleges in it, so there is a certain "academic" atmosphere wafting around the place. And yet, we are surrounded by countryside, the residents of which constitute the majority of the support staff at the colleges --- secretaries, janitors, groundskeepers. These folks are wonderful people, but they don't come from backgrounds that encouraged independent learning, or learning through example/experience. It would never occur to them to be aware of the fact that they are making language mistakes, let alone learn from them. Mama and Daddy say, "Where's he at?" and they do, too. Aunts and uncles say, "I ain't got no time" and they do, too. They are reinforced by their environment/families and never had the head start that some of us were lucky enough to get from our parents. "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a natural philosophy for them --- they literally do not know that they should be "troubled with learning any more."
I can't justify criticizing them --- I feel sure a lot of them are happier and far more well-adjusted than I am! And yet...every once in a while...I'll run across a smart, capable young woman or young man from this community who will never get anywhere (and may not want to), and it makes me sad. But that's my sadness, not theirs. I can' t impose my standards on them and I have to hold myself in check to avoid doing so.
I can' t impose my standards on them and I have to hold myself in check to avoid doing so.
I agree- that can be difficult. Unfortunately, appearances do sometimes matter, and it is in one's best interest to remember that what is appropriate behavior around family and friends is not necessarily so when with strangers.
posted on May 23, 2001 12:09:07 PM new
Mrpotatoheadd -
Once again, I agree with you; appearances do sometimes matter. More often than not. And it's a concession for me to admit that, since I spent most of my teen years arguing the point to the contrary with my mother!
However, I may not have made myself clear in my previous posting; I was not referring to appropriate behavior but rather to appropriate use of language.
Most of the people to whom I referred are fully capable of behaving well, or appropriately, with strangers. It's just that sometimes one wishes a translator were present when they open their mouths to speak to those strangers!
No, you were clear- I should have checked my previous comment more carefully before I posted it. When I said "appropriate behavior", I meant "appropriate use of language". My mistake.
I remember watching a report on 60 Minutes or 20/20 (or one of the other newsmagazine shows) about an organization which helped inner city youths and young adults to get jobs. One of their difficulties was getting their "clients" to understand that, although their usual use of language may be acceptable among their family and friends, it was not acceptable in a more professional setting.
posted on May 23, 2001 12:35:55 PM new
It's a pet peeve of mine, and I gnash my teeth every time I see someone write, "loose an auction." But I also notice that some of the worst spellers are often very successful businesspeople. Perhaps they have found their "nitch."
Programmers are the worst spellers on earth, yet they write thousands of lines of error-free code. Go figure!
posted on May 23, 2001 12:40:02 PM new
Ouch - I made a mistake. I only have a high school education and I admit spelling is not my strong point. I don't think I sound like a thug even if I don't sound like a Rhodes Scholar. If you sound confused and unable to express yourself well you can't blame people if they worry that you are thinking as poorly as you are speaking.
If I were submitting a letter for something important you can be sure I would have my wife edit it because I realize my weakness and I don't trust a spell check program to do more than a very basic correction.
posted on May 23, 2001 01:01:22 PM new
Mrpotatoheadd -
Mistake acknowledgment accepted! Or should I say, "excepted"?
I saw that TV show. This issue came up some years ago in D.C., and if I recall correctly there was a backlash because the organization's attempt to prepare young adults for professional jobs was interpreted in some quarters as being racist. This, despite the fact that the organization was founded and run by members of the community. I understood on an abstract level the logic of the critics, but still, there was something self-destructive about it.
Twinsoft -
You're right --- businesspeople often can be the worst spelling transgressors, as can programmers. But the skills required to run a business or enter computer codes do not necessarily require a command of the English language. Some of the most successful businesspeople I know got that way because of good instincts and organizational ability, and the programmers speak their own language that has nothing to do with ours!
Gravid -
Don't connect "only" having a high school education with the inability to spell or speak well. The fact that you said "If I were" rather than "If I was" indicates to me that you're much more articulate than you think you are.
posted on May 23, 2001 01:22:03 PM new
Calculators preclude the need for math skills and spellcheck precludes the need for spelling skills. In the future people may wear a "filter" over their mouths which would preclude the need for verbal/grammatical skills. The kids are not learning the basics and perhaps the teachers, knowing this, do not teach these skills with as much dedication.
posted on May 23, 2001 01:58:26 PM new
PatTaylor, The exception to the rule! Unless of course the proper use of that word is, "Weird ah put mah durned sneakers?"
posted on May 23, 2001 02:08:04 PM newCalculators preclude the need for math skills...
Until such time as they malfunction, anyway.
I was in a store a while back, and bought a group of items, with a total due of $28.45. I handed the clerk a $5 off coupon, which she attempted to scan several times with no success. In the meantime, I wrote out my check for $23.45. She was eventually able to scan the coupon, told me that my total was now $23.45, and I gave her my check. She was surprised that the check was already filled out, and asked how I knew what the total would be before she told me.
I have a friend who owns a produce store. The typical prospective employee is straight out of high school, and she can tell horror stories about the abilities (or lack thereof) exhibited by some of them. I find it amazing that anybody would be allowed to graduate from high school, yet be unable to answer this question without using a calculator:
If widgets are priced 4 for $1, how much would one widget cost?
posted on May 23, 2001 03:18:36 PM new
An American fellow here in MI went back to Poland to visit relatives and was explaining how he uses a spell check program. Apparently Polish is SO regular that they thought he was making an elaborate big joke. They could not believe such a thing was needed.
posted on May 24, 2001 10:55:33 PM newgravid, don't sweat the boo-boo. Toke used "gaffs" instead of "gaffes" on the previous page...
I'm not perfect when I post here either (funny how typos can happen in the wee hours), but I certainly proofread my auctions multiple times before submitting them! (I also proofread reel good when Im posting in a gramer thred.)
posted on May 24, 2001 11:39:42 PM new
As bad as so many of my dylizic posts are here in the RT, I make absolutely sure that all of my auctions are spelled coretly and even grammarically correct. The last impression that I want to give out is that my business is run by ignorant cornhuskers under the full-moon!
posted on May 25, 2001 01:48:08 PM new
Codasaurus, a little grammatical error here:
"... Consideration for those you are attempting to communicate with." Mah ol daddy tol me nebber to end that thar sentence with the word "with," ya heah?
Grammar is a funny thing. I was born and raised in the north by parents who had parents who spoke the Queen's English (from London). We were brought up never to say words like "ain't," to speak properly or not at all.
Then we moved south where everything is very different. "Ain't" is an acceptable word here. I had a hard time teaching my children not to use the word as almost everyone, including their teachers, did.
Now that we live in the mountains, the vocabulary is even more different. Not to feel out-of-place, we tend to lean towards the speech patterns of the people who surround us. It used to grate on my nerves, but now it comes almost too natural.
Phrases such as "reach that down for me" are normal here in the mountains.
Done did it; I seen it; etc. All normal. I find myself falling into their speech patterns if I spend a lot of time with friends.
posted on May 25, 2001 04:01:10 PM new
mcbrunnhilde...
You had me going there, for a minute...
FYI:
gaffe also gaff (gaf).
n.
1. A clumsy social error; a faux pas: “The excursion had in his eyes been a monstrous gaffe, a breach of sensibility and good taste” (Mary McCarthy).
2. A blatant mistake or misjudgment.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition
posted on May 25, 2001 04:26:07 PM new
I find consistent uncertainty among sellers whose wares lead them into the shadowy realm of compound words or phrases.
Perform a search for "doorstop" and "door stop." You'll get some results for one that you won't get for the other. The smart seller includes both doorstop AND door stop in his/her title, to ensure that spellers from both schools of thought are exposed to your items.
Ditto for bookend/book end. Postcard/post card. Beekeeping/bee keeping. And a slew of others.
Of course, in some instances you simply don't have room to include both spellings, so I advise checking the listings to see how the majority spell it, and go with that. But when dealing with pricey items like an antique cast iron doorstop, it's best to cram both spellings into your title. I wouldn't sweat it for a repro doorstop, though.
posted on May 25, 2001 05:05:13 PM new
Well, now that we have all patted ourselves on the backs, how about some help. (I guess we really DO need this thread once every 4 months)
Seriously, I FINALLY found a way to remember 'loose' vs. 'lose' because of something another poster posted: "The nOOse is lOOse". The 'i before e' thing is also helpful.
Here is another one for the ol' loose vs. lose: Lost and Loss only have one 'o', so why should lose be any different?
I remember accept and except with this: Think of the big 'X' in except. The 'X' is like a big red NO sign, SO the except with the X means NO. Also, accept has an 'A', I never turned down an 'A' in school so Accept means, "bring it on!"
posted on May 25, 2001 05:13:06 PM new
Oh, here is something for: There, Their, and They're
There: There. Here is a place, so if you are talking about a place then you use the one with here.
They're: They're. HEY is something you say to a group of people who are away from you. So, if you are talking about more than one person or thing that is 'away' from you, shout: They're over There.
Their: Their, Their. HE and HER are both in this word, so if you are talking about more than one person (picture a guy and a girl) you use Their, Their
