gravid
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posted on May 31, 2001 07:04:41 PM new
On the news the said that the mother was lured out with the promise of some help to get groceries.
I would like to know why the heck she was not given some real help with groceries a long time ago?
That's OK pretty soon they can call in the FBI and teargas them out or run an armoured car through the house and that will clear up their misconceptions about the government. The silly kids think they are going to be split up and seperated from their loved ones. Shucks - where do they get these ideas?
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dogdays
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posted on May 31, 2001 09:17:36 PM new
The husband passed away three weeks ago causing a very serious bout of depression for the mother. Yes she was lured out with the offer of help, then thrown in jail. (Why jail?) Her kids have been raised to fear governmental authority, etc. Much like the Randy Weaver incident of a couple years back in the same neck of the woods.
In the Weaver's case, FBI trespassed on his property with the intent to serve a weapons violation warrant, Didn't just have the local sheriff take the warrant in, but instead the FBI went creepy crawling through the woods until they came upon the oldest boy (13?) and the family dog. Dog started barking, FBI shoots the dog. The boy starts shooting, and the FBI shoots and kills him. Then Mrs. Weaver, standing in the doorway to their home holding their baby, gets shot through the head and is killed. It was a horrible tragedy with government approval.
This new incident brings back the same horrid memories to most of us from around the area. My heart goes out to these children who have been raised to fear and protect themselves from authority, and pray it doesn't go as far.
Randy Weaver was tried on his "weapons violation" and was aquitted. Lost half of his family for nothing! He never shot back.
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gravid
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posted on June 1, 2001 01:55:32 AM new
Sounds like the local sheriff has a lot more on the ball than the FBI which is kind of the reverse of what you would expect but maybe good for these kids.
I understand about jail for the mentally ill. My nephew in Ohio is mentally ill and the security in the hotel where he lived are all off duty local cops. When he got on the bad side of one they complained about his music even though none of his neighbors were and after he turned it way down they said it was still too loud. He said if we can stand here and talk in a normal voice over it it is OK for the afternoon and refused to turn it down anymore. She came back with two more cops and forced her way in and beat the snot out of him with batons and arrested him. Broke his nose and messed an ear up. Once he was in jail they refused to give him his medications and by the time he was taken to court he was a mess again and basically could not help his attorney with his defence and his appearance had deteriorated to where you would believe anything about him.
He had to spend a couple weeks in the mental wing of the hospital after his release from jail getting back under control of meds and they had left his door hanging wide open and all his belongings were gone and his lease was lost due to not being able to access his mail and pay his rent. If you are not bleeding on the floor they see no medical problem in jail.
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Linda_K
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posted on June 1, 2001 10:37:08 AM new
I would like to know why the heck she was not given some real help with groceries a long time ago?
It looks like she was offered help, from neighbors and her church but declined. This article also says she wouldn't apply for county aid as she felt they were to blame for her husbands death. Sounds like maybe she has/had a drinking problem too. They were losing their land for back taxes owed and not paid. Sad all around. I hope the family that is not living there, can convince the children to come out peacefully.
http://www.msnbc.com/news/580375.asp
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tegan
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posted on June 1, 2001 11:04:01 AM new
This is really sad.
When a person is fallen ill and can't work the fact that the government can come in and seize thier property for failure to pay taxes is just wrong.
These poor kids had to watch there father die and then watch all his property pulled out from under him. Then thier mother is tricked by the authorities and hauled off to jail.
I am not anti government by any means but this whole situation was handled so badly that it will be a big honking wad of fuel to the antigovernment movements that exist already and may pull even more people over to that side.
Is there anyone out there who wonders why these kids pulled out the guns?
From what I can see they have no proof in their lives that the government is actually out there to help them.
I served my country, I love my country but this kind of crap should not be allowed to happen in America.
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gravid
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posted on June 1, 2001 11:46:20 AM new
Reading some more today the Mom is apparently very bad off in several ways - has depression + drinking problem and does not sound like there was anyone to step in and say she needed treatment and act as an advocate to contact agencies for help. If you are in that condition it is pretty hard to wade through the red tape to ask and get help. Where she is living is so isolated there probably is not much help to be had for someone without a telephone even. One report said a family friend had just taken them about 200 lbs of food from a food charity just before the arrest. Too many contridictions - one report said they had no power another said not so. They were trying to talk to the kids on a megaphone yesterday and a news agency helicopter messed that up. That would probably freak these kids out. Said she blamed road spray for her husbands MS.
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MaddieNicks
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posted on June 1, 2001 04:40:39 PM new
They said on Good Morning America this morning that the oldest boy (15 years old) was "in custody", had been examined in a hospital, found to be malnourished, etc. Anybody know any more about that? Did he go to them and say "take me away from all this", or did they trick him too?
I'll go see what I can find out there on the top sites. This is gonna be ugly, I'm afraid.
Kris
[email protected]
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gravid
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posted on June 1, 2001 06:27:56 PM new
Turns out they thought all the kids were holed up in the house and this boy has been out in the woods for 3 days. He went to a neighbors and was pursuaded to be taken into town. The kids want to talk to their Mom but the cops say no. That probably makes them fear the worst but who knows what she would tell them to do also. No one has said anything about her having an attorney appointed. I get the ompression they don't have a phone.
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MrsSantaClaus
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posted on June 1, 2001 06:54:29 PM new
I wonder how the cops in Idaho would feel if one of their fellow officers died then they arrested the wife and had a stand off with the kids?
Perhaps it is time for a new law enforcement team in that area ....
First Ruby Ridge now this?
I feel horrible for those children, no parents and having the cops out there. What in the world did they police expect them to do? They are children - not adults. AND let's hope the police remember they are innocent.
BECKY
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rancher24
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posted on June 2, 2001 10:51:29 AM new
On one of the news shows, I saw an attorney that was representing the mother...He had even taken another family member to the house to talk to the kids..Unfortunately, he said they have several dogs (sign I saw said, Please Honk, Dogs Bite) and the dogs surrounded the car & they were unable to get out to talk with the kids. The kids did not come to where they could even hold a conversation from the car to the house....
In another TV report, a source said that the police were reluctant to bring the mother into the standoff negotiations because SHE told them that she couldn't suggest to the kids a positive solution. She said she was afraid of telling them to do something bad...
Poor children, lost both parents, and since they were kept so isolated, they probably don't have a clue what is going on, don't trust anyone, and are scared to death...My heart breaks for them...
~ Rancher
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jt-2007
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posted on June 2, 2001 01:30:18 PM new
Maybe they should let the 15 year old go home, put a calling card in his hand, and walk away. Im my opinon, that is the best way to build their trust. They are NOT criminals.
My parents were 15 and 17 when they were taking care of me, working, building their own house. They did ok. My mom was high school salutatorian when I was three. Proud memory for me looking back. I do remember her giving her speech.
Send the boy home with a month's worth of groceries and leave them the heck alone! If they need help, they can ask.
T
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 05:42:13 PM new
jt,
That would be a great start! Just send in a phone with the 15 year old so that the kids can communicate with their mother or other family members. I can't believe that they are still using megaphones.
The mother and the children are justifiably frightened. And as Tegan
mentioned, this is exactly the kind of situation that fuels the hate
group mentality.
Your parents were remarkable to achieve so much at such a young age.
If these kids were not so isolated, I believe that they too could
manage to cope until their mother is able to return.
For Gods sake! Why not turn on the electricity and get a phone in the
house?
Helen
[ edited by Hjw on Jun 2, 2001 05:49 PM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 2, 2001 06:47:20 PM new
Two thoughts -
One the area is so isolated there may not be cell phone service.
Two the only thing the police are interested in at this point is getting custody not sending a phone in when they can't predict what that would do. They will not undertake any action that they do not see as moving them toward taking the kids into state custody because they are now legally wards of the state and that is what police are obligated to do for the state - deliver them to the appropriate agencies.
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 06:58:41 PM new
gravid,
I don't understand. What danger is involved in sending in a cell phone?
What do you mean by your statement, "they can't predict what that would do?"
Helen
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 07:01:08 PM new
Well, it's over so you don't need to answer that question.
Helen
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gravid
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posted on June 2, 2001 07:15:28 PM new
But I will answer anyway in case you come back and look. If you said the wrong thing on that phone it could have made matters worse instead of better. The Mother was not cooperative so if the kids asked for her on the phone and could not get her it might have easily been counter productive.
On CNN the lawyer for the Mother is complaining he has been refused when he wished to talk to his client. That is pretty basic to allow a person access to their attorney. What excuse could the sheriff have to hold her incommunicado?
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 07:29:19 PM new
gravid,
Thanks for your answer.
There is no reason to keep the mother from consulting an attorney. She may be in a medical facility and under such heavy sedation that she cannot talk.
Helen
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 07:46:10 PM new
Latest story after the end of the crisis and
info about the lawyerscontinuing problem
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/06/02/idaho.standoff.03/index.html
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rancher24
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posted on June 2, 2001 08:42:26 PM new
hJw, thanx for the link...Hadn't heard of the great outcome!...
Reading the article, I found it ironic that the mother, who was described as "not cooperative", had her bail hearing postponed, when a storm knocked out power to the court. A small act from a higher being to help guide a peaceful, non-violent end to the trama??
~ Rancher
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Hjw
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posted on June 2, 2001 09:11:54 PM new
I just hope that this family will get some new direction and recover from this overwhelming tragedy. The separation of the
mother and children right after the death of the father and then on top of that, losing their home is a horrible experience.
Helen
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jt-2007
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posted on June 2, 2001 10:56:06 PM new
taking the kids into state custody because they are now legally wards of the state and that is what police are obligated to do for the state - deliver them to the appropriate agencies.
The thing that irks me the most about this whole deal and other similar incidents is that the government wants us to be
johnny1
johnny2
johnny3
suzy1
suzy2
suzy3
They want us to wear the same pants. Learn the same garbage. Wake up at the same time, punch the same time clock, etc, etc.
Only 75 years ago Kathryn would have taken care of the other kids. Benjamin would have put food on the table. (I bet he is capable.) The neighbors would have pitched in to fix the well. There wouldn't have been any question about it. It is, now, as if being poor is a crime.
Anyone who believes America is a free country is a fool. It is one huge socialist country club concentration camp.
T
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gravid
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posted on June 3, 2001 02:04:55 AM new
I meet a lady from Greece and she was indignant when she found out we have to pay
tax on a house. She said in Greece you only get taxed if you own extra houses and rent
them out for income. She said you don't own your houses in America you rent them
from the government.
How can I argue? Every year here in the county we have an auction of all the houses
old people and sick people lose because they don't have enough income anymore to
pay the tax.
jt you are right about 75 years ago but the legislatures in their wisdom have decided that it is better for the kids to be kids and if you gave one a job you would end up in jail. The system is like communism - it sounds good on paper but does not work well in reality. Too many are bounced around with none of the stability foster care should provide and some are even abused by the people who are supposed to help them.
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jt-2007
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posted on June 3, 2001 02:36:06 AM new
the legislatures in their wisdom have decided
This is what was really missing in their little lives. It wasn't just water.
http://newciv.org/worldtrans/whole/schoolteacher.txt I doubt you will read it. But I wish you would.
Too many are bounced around with none of
I agree that every situation is unique. Therefore all should not have to conform to the same solution.
T
if you gave one a job you would end up in jail
Also... 16 is the legal age to work. 14 with stipulations. There are honestly as many kids in my town with jobs as adults because most kids work locally and most adults drive into the city. Just a side note and not necessiciraly a relevant point in the case of these children.
[ edited by jt on Jun 3, 2001 02:48 AM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 3, 2001 05:41:59 AM new
jt - You are needlessly adversarial when I am not disagreeing with you to say I won't take the time to read your link. I was happy to do so. You are preaching to the faithful here because I refused to do any homework the last two years of school telling them they wasted enough of my time all day without demending the night also.
I understand school attendance was an issue with the kids in Idaho also - but I have to say it sounds like the Mother did not have the ability to home school with all her other problems in any case so it is sort of a none issue. Sounds like meeting other kids from outside the home was something they lacked.
[ edited by gravid on Jun 3, 2001 05:42 AM ]
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jt-2007
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posted on June 3, 2001 07:42:21 AM new
needlessly adversarial
Sorry I came across that way. It's that I get passionate about an issue rather than confrontal. Thanks for reading. I said that because I have posted Gatto before and to my knowledge no one ever read it. The point I was making with the article wasn't just about school at all. It was about forced conformity, the killing of individualism in general.
On that note, I will say that of course, I have no idea the reality in this situation (nor does anyone). It all reminds me way too much of "Where The Lilies Bloom" so I keep relating Kathryn to Mary Call.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/6302478944/o/qid=991578704/sr=8-2/104-1816376-9879938
Great movie/book if you don't know it.
Take care, Gravid.
T
[ edited by jt on Jun 3, 2001 07:51 AM ]
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gravid
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posted on June 3, 2001 07:59:37 AM new
Thanks jt appreciate the links. I can't imaigine what it is like to grow up in Japan where conformity is even worse than here and the kids are constantly told "The nail that sticks up will be hammered down." I was hammered on enough.
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Hjw
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posted on June 3, 2001 09:25:10 AM new
Gaddo presents some propaganda to justify home schooling but in general, I believe that he is wrong to blame the school system. There are good teachers in America and good schools.
I do agree that along with formal, classroom education, children should hopefully experience learning experiences at home.
I believe that my children learned lessons in self-motivation, perseverance, self-reliance, courage, dignity and love and
lessons in service to others for example,
both at school and at home.
In the case being discussed in this thread, the children were being home schooled. We don't know enough to evaluate the quality of that endeavor but as you know, it's not always successful and neither is regular classroom education always successful.
Helen
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gravid
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posted on June 3, 2001 11:37:47 AM new
Yup - Hjw - It is pretty hard for a kid when they go home from school and there is just a void of any useful help like some kids experience in the inner city. When neither parent works and Uncle John is a dope dealer and cousin Al chops cars, and it is not safe to go outside.
It is also hard in a rural area if there are no other families around to have normal social interaction that teaches kids how to deal with others outside the family. I do think home schooling can be as good or better than public school but it takes a lot of resources in time and ability to do it well.
I don't know how that poor woman could have done much schooling for the kids with a sick husband and fighting battles with the authorities over tax liens and Social Security. Sounds like that would sap all her energies right there even if she did not have a drinking problem or other things they have intimated in the news.
I hope whatever happens to those kids is an improvement over the last couple months. They sure have had it rough. I hope nobody is crappy enough to charge them with deliquency or any other offences for not surrendering quickly.
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jt-2007
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posted on June 3, 2001 11:46:21 AM new
Helen,
Gatto wasn't a homeschool activist or even parent. He was New York Teacher of The Year. He has been "adopted" by the homeschool movement since his retirement. This attention came after he gave a rather shocking acceptance speech for the award in 1990. He has spoken in homeschool circles upon invitation since. Just for clarification.
T.
Acceptance speech is here if it interests you. *shrug*
http://www.primenet.com/~afhe/gatto2.htm
~keep thinking in ezcodes
[ edited by jt on Jun 3, 2001 11:56 AM ]
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lotsafuzz
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posted on June 3, 2001 12:07:19 PM new
I do wish it was possible to get some kind of 'final shake down' on this story. Seems that the 'facts' change almost by the hour (first there was no water, then there way, then no food, then there was, then dad died from one thing, then another)......
Since you all seem to know all the facts about this (otherwise, I assume you wouldn't be commenting), could someone post a link so I could get the rest of the story?
As for homeschooling: Seems to be a toss up. For every story you have about wonderful, educated parents who work hard at teaching their kids (and involving them in social events) you have another story with parents who can't read or write who pull their kids out of school only so they aren't 'bothered' by social services wondering why the kids don't eat and why they have been beaten.
I do wish there were some kind of standards about who can and who can't homeschool. I know there are some states that do have standards, but that in itself seems to cause problems as there seems to be no national agreement on such standards (or even if there should be such standards).
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