posted on June 10, 2001 08:22:24 PM new
One thing that has always puzzled me about God, is why does the Bible tell us He needs all these accolades from everyone? Why does He have to be praised and sung to and rejoiced to all the time?
This has to be made up or embellished as I can't see a true God needing all this emotional stuff. Just my opinion.
posted on June 10, 2001 08:32:21 PM new
Hepburn Yes ,all written by mere mortals and altered over time by kings and others that would keep people under their thumbs. JMHO of course.
Krafty! I have wondered that myself and also wondered why anyone would enjoy spending eternity giving those accolades. I cannot imagine an eternity where I would be required to tell anyone, any "being", how wonderful they are,how mighty they are etc. This is not a good thing to me. Having to study what the "being" thinks I should study and think only the way that "being" thinks I should think.To me, and only to me, not speaking for anyone else, that would be like hell. I prefer a place with open thought and disscussion and a place where I can see my pets again as well.I don't wanna go if I have to go with Billy Graham or Jerry Fallwell or any of them.
posted on June 10, 2001 08:54:04 PM new
Thats another thing. I believe my pets will "go" to a "higher place".
Dang, kraftdinner. Looks like you and I were on the edge of the fence, but just fell off to the other side, lol. Preaching to me does that every time. Pushes me away more than brings me in. I wanted opinion. Not scripture that some guy wrote a long time ago that maybe didnt write it ALL down correctly.
posted on June 10, 2001 08:57:11 PM new
What you just said up there ^^ reminded me that I'd read recently in US News that early Christians believed in reincarnation. Then a few centuries later, the church decided that was not true.
Plus, most Christian holidays are actually based on pagan celebrations (Christmas, Easter). The church used that method to make Christianity more palatable to those whose religions were ousted. They also would build churches over more ancient worship grounds.
I also read that many Christian stories are based on writings from older religions. There certainly are many similarities.
Lisa
posted on June 10, 2001 09:21:34 PM new
Eternity with the likes of Jerry Fallwell, now that would be hell!
There are so many opinions on this thread that I agree with (sorry Terri yours is not one of them.)
The Bible - because what is written is by many different people, and their interrpretations. Also, and I don't mean this to be flippant, but could they have been on drugs or alcohol?
Quoting from scripture - just drives me crazy. For one thing those words just don't make any sense to me. I would never read the Bible for that reason alone.
Why would a good father sacrifice his son and not himself?
Why does one person need to be praised and obeyed now and for all eternity? If I don't follow that rule I'm not a good person?
Edited to add: Thank you for the link to Wiccan site
[ edited by chococake on Jun 10, 2001 09:25 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2001 09:38:13 PM new
Chocolate,
Make comparisons with this: http://www.lysator.liu.se/~drokk/BoD/toc.html and see if you end up thinking that the bible is little more than an agenda driven rewrite. Copyright infringement was an unknown concept, I'm sure, and even were it not, the protective time period surely had elapsed.
posted on June 10, 2001 09:44:07 PM newSo, will I push every available button to save even one person (including readers/non-posters) from an eternity of hell? YOU BETCHA'!
posted on June 10, 2001 09:44:32 PM new
Yes! That brings to mind something else. That poor guy that was plagued by boils and other awful trials, just to prove he was faithful (Job, I think?). WHY would God do that? WHY?
Sorry Terri, but I just fell off the fence and have no desire to get back up on the rim. The more this is discussed, the more I am swayed otherwise. Like I said before, I wanted opinions, from your own head, of why you think like you do. I got scriptures instead.
[ edited by hepburn on Jun 10, 2001 09:45 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2001 09:48:49 PM new
Chococake ~ "Why would a good father sacrifice his son and not himself?"
Why was sacrifice neccesary at all? Isn't a sacrifice made to a "god" to get that god to do something or to show it your devotion? Why sacrifice your son to yourself? To what end?I have never understood that.
edited UBB and to add...
Roofguy? So you believe in the Goddess then?
sorry , couldn't help myself
[ edited by rawBUNZel on Jun 10, 2001 09:51 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2001 10:12:48 PM new
Thank you JT for your link to http://home.att.net/~icu8/midis/christian/nameonhigh.htm I loved it. "Ones own ends" for a believer should always be to share Gods word.
L
[ edited by treasuresnw on Jun 10, 2001 10:15 PM ]
posted on June 10, 2001 10:46:21 PM newthat the bible is little more than an agenda driven rewrite
Exactly. Not only has it been re-written extensively but has entire books missing completely. I have a hard time understanding why any person who understands the history of the Bible would use it as "the word." The fact that it has been re-written numerous times is fact - not a theory.
IMO, we are all spiritual beings on a journey. Whatever benefit the Bible may have once held toward furthering our journey has long since passed... probably beginning with the first re-write.
Also, JMO... God doesn't care one flip what we call him... It's way, way down on the list of things that matter in this journey. We are here to learn the meaning of unconditional love - everything else is small potatoes, imo.
posted on June 10, 2001 10:50:20 PM new
Hi rawbunzel! Haven't seen you in awhile, so it's nice to see you. I agree with you on the sacrifice part too. If God or Jesus knew it was stupid in the first place, why did they make everyone think different? I can't imagine how many goats they all went through. Who ever stuck up for the goats?
posted on June 10, 2001 11:11:21 PM new
Hi Kraftdinner. I haven't been posting much lately. Too busy! Good to see you too!
Mybidd, I agree completely about the re-writes and lost books. The loss of meaning is extensive and the Bible itself is incomplete and altered. How can a book like that be taken as "gospel"?
I am a spiritual person not a religious one. I believe like you that we are all on a journey.I also believe that we are here to learn lessons.Some need the bible to do that and perhaps others don't. Maybe depends on the lesson we are here to learn. [I believe that we are all here to learn different lessons, not just unconditional love although that is a good one!]
Roofguy said there are believers and there are infidels.Yes, to a Muslem all that do not believe as they do are infidels. If you are a christian you are an infidel to them. We are all infidels to someone else.
Can music save you after Zen? I have no idea. I'm not looking to be saved.
posted on June 10, 2001 11:21:06 PM new
Hi Rawbunzel!
I'm getting ready to crash for the night but your comment gives me pause to re-evaluate my unconditional love comment. I've felt absolutely certain about that for a while now... but, maybe it's time to pick it apart.
Here's the question...
Are there any lessons that we can learn that don't require our ability to experience or give unconditional love?
posted on June 10, 2001 11:33:04 PM new
Mybidd, I don't know about the answer to your question.[but then,how could I? ] I will say this. There may be some here on this earth that already had learned the lesson of unconditional love and are here to learn another lesson this time around. Unconditional love may be necessary to the process but not the actual lesson. Does that make sense? I'll think on this a bit .
Thanks! I like having things like this to think about!
posted on June 10, 2001 11:51:19 PM newI wanted opinions, from your own head, of why you think like you do. I got scriptures instead.
Hepburn, What did you want, me to give you all the evidence of what God has done personally in my life? If I were to sit here and tell you my answered prayers about personal and important and tragic things in my life, there would only be skeptics who would pick apart my life rather than the word of God. I am thinking on your request but all I can say is that God has changed my life and answered my prayers in amazing ways. They would seem perhaps trivial to others.
I will tell you that until 3 years ago, I had never attemtped to witness to anyone. I was so uncomfortable and embarassed and fearful that I could not talk about my faith publically even one on one with people that I knew.
T
posted on June 11, 2001 03:51:05 AM new
"Yes, to a Muslem all that do not believe as they do are infidels. If you are a christian you are an infidel to them. We are all infidels to someone else."
Actually the Moslems are as divided as the Christians and you can find plenty of them who say Jesus Christ was a great Prophet and that Christians are not Unbelievers but a different variety of believer. Others factions think Christians plain old heathens.
Plenty of Moslems disagree with one another enough to go out and slaughter each other as seperate political units. Iraq and Iran have been going at each other on and off for years.
Hepburn - If you can't listen to a couple short paragraphs of scripture without your eyes glazing over I don't thing you are going to be able to make a very deep study of religeous ideas. I mean this is less attention than you would have to spend learning how to use a new appliance. So I really don't mean it unkindly but I don't think the question is important enough to you right now to pay it the needed attention. Maybe later. I am an old fuddy who grew up pre-TV so I am also not trained that everything can be explained in sound bites short enough for Peter Jennings to blurt out between commercials.
I know that is addressing the individual instead of the topic - but it is like talking about running a marathon - You can only speak about it in general terms so far - and then how much effort the person has time and ability to train for the race is a real issue if they are actually going to run.
posted on June 11, 2001 05:56:50 AM new
Seemed like such a negative idea that I had to look up the meaning of infidel to be sure of what the choices were.
1 one who is not a Christian or who opposes Christianity
2 a : an unbeliever with respect to a particular religion b : one who acknowledges no religious belief
3 : a disbeliever in something specified or understood
posted on June 11, 2001 06:26:30 AM new
Never seriously KRS. You know that very well.
Now as you oft say to me, "don't start". This is a friendly thread.
T
posted on June 11, 2001 06:39:29 AM new
Here's a question/observation that's been bugging me for the longest time:
The people that I know, who enjoy "witnessing" others.. always choose to witness .. oh.. say the "heathens in England" or the "heathens in Germany". Or, they even attempt to witness those they work with. Why choose "us" to witness? Why not choose, as other "churches" and religions do.. to go to 3rd world countries and not "witness" but give and offer medical help? Not once, have I ever seen any of these religions, who "witness" anyone .. EVER go to 3rd world countries.. they always go to established countries and cities and go knocking door to door.
posted on June 11, 2001 06:55:55 AM newI have never thought of anyone as an "infidel".
jt, regarding those people you're hoping to save from an eternity of hell, how do they vary from the description of "infidel" you posted?
So, will I push every available button to save even one person (including readers/non-posters) from an eternity of hell? YOU BETCHA'!
[ edited by roofguy on Jun 11, 2001 06:57 AM ]
posted on June 11, 2001 07:05:34 AM new
jt, my guess as to why you perceive "infidel" to be negative is that it has been used, recently and throughout history, to categorize one's opponents in military struggle. I'm sure you're not suggesting that "the infidel" needs to be physically eliminated from the face of the earth. But observe from your definition that this is a separate concept, and does not directly follow from "infidel".
The essential concept is "people are divided into two categories, the believers, and the infidels".
posted on June 11, 2001 07:47:39 AM newall I can say is that God has changed my life and answered my prayers in amazing ways.
Terri, I didnt want your real life information (its private and none of my business). I wanted explanation (your point of view) without scripture. For example, WHY do you think God let Job be so tormented? To prove what? Love and faith? And why in such a degree to prove it? And why sacrifice a son from someone else? Why? What is YOUR opinion as to the reasons and why would any "infidel" want to follow such a religion? Perhaps there is less "christianity" or "love of God" because it is very hard to do with no sign of such a "being". The world as it is, the suffering of children, the evil that is rampant and the horrors of wars, pestilence, etc. Then to read and be told that if love is not shown or given or not strived for, even more damnation will be heaped on your soul. And this by the very religion that you want to "push buttons for". Do you see what I mean?
Gravid, Im glad you know me well enough to "presume" what I think and feel by reading a few sentences I typed. Gee. You must be a prophet.
posted on June 11, 2001 08:56:27 AM new
Terri - I'm glad to see several posters quoting from your first post about you pushing buttons to save even one unbeliever. Because, when I said "you" can't save any one, you agreed. Which is it?
Another question. Why do people of your faith witness others to convert and believe as you do. From what I've observed from this thread no one tries to change your mind, or, save you from your religion. It's the same in RL we don't go to churchs, and tell the congregation they believe in an unjust God, and they are ruining their life by living by the Bible. Instead, we debate, and ask questions. Yet, you only quote scripture, or use the excuse of your private life is private.
posted on June 11, 2001 10:27:39 AM new
Sorry I offended - I apologize. I was afraid I might.
I was just trying to say it is not an easy thing to discuss in short general terms - kind of like a book I got - Calculus made Easy. It still was not easy because the ideas are too big to make easy. At least it was not easy for my brain. Still not comfortable with it.
