posted on June 13, 2001 02:00:10 PM new
I also don't understand the difference between "regular" Baptists and Southern Baptists. I was a member of a regular Baptist church for several years and I can remember the pastor looking down on the Southern Baptists. My ex got so wrapped up in it that he would check to see which radio station I was listening to in the car ... so, of course when I drove the car into the garage, I quickly turned it back to the Christian radio station. Went on like that for several years. One time he walked in and the kids and I were watching something on T.V. that had rock music playing - he literally picked this t.v. up and threw it out in the front yard. Of course I always wore a dress to church, but couldn't wait to change clothes when I got home. And some of those men in the church loved the rule of the wives submitting to their husbands (of course). Icckkkk...... It's a downer even thinking about those memories. So glad they're long gone!
posted on June 13, 2001 02:19:39 PM new
No krs, but he could have been (seriously). He was 10 years my senior and had to have total control over everything. After 12 years I found something out about him .... don't want to go into detail, but it was so serious that he could have been sent to the penn. I had no money, went back to renting a house. I wish I had it to do over again in a way ...... I had put 12 years into a marriage, found out (what I referred to above), and I was still so brainwashed at the time that I fought for nothing - not a car, not the house, nothing. I just wanted out. When I mentioned to him that he's lucky he's not in prison, his response was, "You're not going to blackmail me".
posted on June 13, 2001 05:47:02 PM new
Bobbi, I am truely sorry to hear about your marriage to this man. It is a problem a lot of locals face here where I live in Portland Oregon, since several extremist Christian sects have a huge base of operations here. They are so oppressive to women that the ones that manage to make it out of bondage spend years in therapy trying to recover their identity. No law against these practices.
The plain facts are that the Fundamentalists have taken over control of the Southern Baptist organization and have turned it to their own ends -- a tactic that Adolf Hitler used quite well with the Nazi party. In fact, without seeming "Nikita Chruschev-like", one can draw serious parallels between Adolf Hitler and these Fundamentalists, step-by-step exactly the same. Chilling. Southern Baptists are only now becoming aware of it and are leaving in droves.
edited for sp.
[ edited by Borillar on Jun 13, 2001 05:49 PM ]
posted on June 13, 2001 08:35:18 PM new
Borillar, you seem to misunderstand Christian marriage.
The marital relationship from the male perspective is analogous to the relationship the man has with Jesus Christ. It's a life long relationship of honor, respect, and personal commitment.
Are there oppressive men who call themselves Christians? Sure.
But they do not represent Christianity, nor Christian marriage.
posted on June 13, 2001 09:37:55 PM newroofguy, I do not believe that I misunderstand Christian marriage. We have several sects here that are so harsh that the woman has virtually no identity left, except that of willing slave to the man. In some of them, the women cannot object or even interject, having no role or sayso over their lives or wellbeing. If Christian Marriage is your interpretation of the domestic slavery that these sects practice, then we're all in trouble. These poor women are not allowed to think and are punished if they do think for themselves - all will power is sapped out of them and they are as obidient slaves, not as equal marital partners, which is my interpretation of a Christian Marriage. Of course, I have been wrong before ...
posted on June 13, 2001 10:03:45 PM newroofguy:The marital relationship from the male perspective is analogous to the relationship the man has with Jesus Christ. It's a life long relationship of honor, respect, and personal commitment.
So what is it from the female perspective? Sems to me that in the fundamentalist view all the honor & respect flow one way--toward the male. And no, it isn't true honor & respect to expect a wife to kowtow to her husband. If there was true honor & respect they'd be equal partners. In slavery, no matter how "kind" the master is, no matter how "well" the slaves are housed & treated, they are still slaves owned & dictated to by their masters.
posted on June 13, 2001 10:13:00 PM new"But isn't there scripture in which Jesus says, in effect, to ignore the old teachings, or book, specifically the old testament, and follow his word from thenceforth?"-krs
NO. Apparently you haven't done much study of the scriptures.
"...the Bible has been pronounced "Complete". In Fundy-speak, that means that the Bible has no errors, no contradictions whatsoever"-borillar
That is incorrect, The Bible being pronounced 'complete', is in reference to the actual canon of the Bible. That there are no missing texts or books of the Bible. Although some do claim the bible to be without error, your statement above has nothing to do with that, but if I may quote your own words, like you said...
"Of course, I have been wrong before ..."-borillar.
posted on June 13, 2001 11:16:30 PM newborillar So the way I'm understanding it is that the fundamentalist Baptists are even more "strict"? (for lack of a better word) in their beliefs than the Southern Baptists. I'm with you - that is chilling for sure.
posted on June 14, 2001 12:01:14 AM new
Bobbi, I can't say for sure if these local sects are fundamentalists or not, but they sure tend to be literalists. They believe that everything in your live is pre-ordained, so there is no point in struggling. For instance, in getting a job, one starts at the end of the block and applies to every business until one gets hired. The business that hires you is the one that God has already chosen for you and you have no say in the matter.
Fundamentalism is the crack-cocain version of religion, and Christian Fundamentalism is no different. The Southern Baptist movement in this last century became the mainstay of moderate and modern Christian thought and practice. It soon developed a very large following. This attracted the Fundies with their Theocracy take-over agenda, because the Southern Baptists were such a large and potentially effective political force.
What I think is important is that the basic, core belief of the Southern Baptists have truely gone south, leading them into damnation. It i8s small wonder that many members are beginning to become aware of just how wrong the Fundamentalist interpretation of things is and do not want to be any part of it. Like I said: it only benefits Satan to have everyone ignore the words and acts of Jesus and to replace it with anything else, even other parts of the Bible.
Therefore, I truely believe that Christian Fundamentalism is the Handtool of the Devil, perverting the minds of true believers and the devout by replacing common sense and goodness with drivel.
But, that's just my interpretation of events.
"That is incorrect, The Bible being pronounced 'complete', is in reference to the actual canon of the Bible. That there are no missing texts or books of the Bible."
In other words, all the text that is supposed to be there, is there. That's nonsense and who would use such a thing as a belief? Sorry, but every Fundie I've argued with -- and I've argued for years with many mucho of them, each claims that the Bible is complete, meaning no further alteration or correction is needed; that everything was either written by God or that the Holy Ghost was there in the heads and hands of the writers making sure that every word was perfect and that no errors exist. Of course, I've never been a fundamentalist and I have only to rely upon what they say.
posted on June 14, 2001 01:32:15 AM new
Borillar - wouldn't it be ironic if the Christian Fundamentalists are really the false prophets that are always talked about? Then when the Rapture comes all that have followed them will be the condemned, and go to hell.
We that didn't follow will be saved. Something to think about.
posted on June 14, 2001 07:26:21 AM new
Borillar, based on a few vague examples, you paint with a very broad brush.
I'm not going to judge who is a Christian, much less who is a "fundamentalist Christian".
I will say that 100% of the Christians I know, which includes 100% of the fundamentalist Christians I know, reject the behavior you describe in very concrete terms.
I'd like to say that they all have great marriages, but that would be false, although not because one can make any generalizations about the fault such as "oppressive husband". I observe the marriages of fundamentalist Christians to work or not work for the same reasons which non-Christian marriages work. ONE of those reasons is "oppressive husband".
Bunnicula is concerned for the female in a Christian marriage. Again, Bunnicula, all external horror aside, I observe that Christian marriages work not so differently from non-Christian marriages. Most of them are life long partnerships. Partnerships which have worked out what "obey" means for that marriage, and it nearly always means shared decision making.
I'm as sorry for the women Borillar describes as Borillar is, but they do not represent Christian marriage, fundamentalist or otherwise.
posted on June 14, 2001 07:49:05 AM new
Not only can women not hold leadership roles in their families but they are not allowed to hold positions in the church.
This is readily apparent in the Southern Baptists' argument against the ordination of women. The relevant passage is Timothy 2:11: "I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent." The "inerrantist" holds this verse to be an eternal, universal truth.
posted on June 14, 2001 08:53:43 AM new
I wish I would have kept the article I read concerning divorce in the United States. I thought it interesting that the highest divorce rate in the country is in the bible belt.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:02:38 AM new
Hi, Chococake! What seems more likely to me is that any god so described as being all-loving, all-caring, and infinetly compassionate could hardly have a dungeon hanging around for those who refuse to obey his every whim; throws them into Eternal torture by fire - the most painful for living beings; and then forgets about them. Such contradictions do bother Fundamentalists, but they are taught to swallow it whole and not to challange it. Chococake, when the rational mind of an individual is forced to take in something that it does not perceive as rational; e.g. square pegs go in square holes, etc. the rational mind can become dislocated and confused -- offline, if you like. When that happens, the person is in a highly suggestive state and will believe anything that you tell them. This is why the Fundies want a litteral interpretation of the Bible and they tell everyone that there are no errors or contradications in the Bible, even though it's fairly easy to come across ones.
Roofguy, all I know is that these gals who escaped -- litterally escaped in the sense of mind control, were badly messed up. I understand the Christian Household method and I disagree with the Male having to be the Keeper. The reason being is that each and every person is responsible for themselves and there is nothing on earth that can allow one person to take away the responsiblility of another and fullfill it. And I see the male being placed in that position where he is in charge, meaning has authority over her, to be able to negate what she wants and must do to meet her responsiblilities. Therefore, he is, in a way, taking her responsiblility from her. Of course, that doesn't work well and marriages fall apart for many reasons, but this one seems to be a common contributing factor in our society.
Chococake, in my observation of things, my opinion of why any relationship breaks up has a Most Common Factor. That factor is that we, as human beings, grow; that is, we grow as responsible adults, grow more intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually.
What I think causes most relationships to break up is that one person in the relationship spurts ahead in personal growth and the other will not catch up. It does not break up a relationship if there is too wide a valley between the growth of one person and the other, simply because we go at different rates and positions can swap. But we get comfortable and it is not uncommon for one person to stall and refuse to go ahead and grow more mature, for instance. It is that the person who is more "grown" will only wait for just so long for the other person to get their act in gear and to catch up, depending upon that person's patience. Then, the eyes begin to stray, interest begins to stray, then the person begins to stray -- always looking for either an equal in maturity or for someone more mature to grow towards. That doesn't mean that a person naturally leaps from one relationship into another. The new relationship that got them out of their current relationship does not usually hold. Like I said, it's just my opinion.
but to place women naturally as second and to catapult man into a superior position of authority by way of God' Will is a pretty good deal for the man and a rotten deal for the women! Women are not wayward children needing a keeper to make sure that they don't stub their toes as they walk about in life. America is at least as enlightened as to perceive this. Many women that I know of that preferred the Christian-style marriage going into it ended up divorced to get out of such a miserable arrangement. Good for the man, sucks for the women -- unless the women has the mind of a child, IMO.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:19:25 AM new
This so-called "complete" bible was pieced together from a plethora of religious writtings and assembled by edict by the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea.
The Council attempted to piece the writtings together in a manner that offered the least contradictions by outlawing many scriptures under penalty of death so to end religious conflict to hold the crumbling Roman Empire together.
Christian scriptures which a powerless minority believed in were destroyed, harboring a copy of the condemned scriptures was punishable by death.
The bible, like all books, is authored, edited, printed and bound, by man, and done so for very worldly reasons.
I am amazed at how many "christians" can quote scripture, yet know little or nothing of the history of the bible beyond the King James version.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:32:58 AM new
"This is why the Fundies want a litteral interpretation of the Bible and they tell everyone that there are no errors or contradications in the Bible, even though it's fairly easy to come across ones."
Yep Borillar, that's exactly what I was told in the Baptist church. They swore that in the entire Bible, there are NO contradictions. I remember one time I questioned something in the Bible, and they accusingly asked me, "Are you saying the Bible contradicts itself???" Whew..... were they upset! They believed in "once saved, always saved". I would always ask the preacher questions, like okay, then a person can get saved and then go on his merry way and do whatever he wants, because he's "saved"? His answer was No - Because if that person sinned, he would feel "convicted" and not be able to do it any more. The Church of God in that town believed you continually had to keep "saving yourself" - So I guess every single time a person sins, they need to "ask forgiveness". (if that were the case, I'd be on my knees constantly)!
So, I supposedly "got saved" - but I didn't feel much different really, and I told the preacher that. He said that if I really meant it in my heart, that I was "saved".
Can't remember who said it up there ^^, but yeah, it WOULD be ironic if all the fundamentalists were really the antichrist! (and I can still hear what that preacher would have said to that) ..... it's just satan putting ideas in my head. All religion did for me was make me even {i]more[/i] confused.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:57:16 AM new
I was one of those annoying kids, the very most annoying simply because I always asked the question, "Why?" Because of this inquisitiveness, when I join a Baptist church at age 14 and I was sent to Sunday school, I began asking questions. That got me into trouble. I then began to read for myself the Bible and its history. I know about the Council of Nicia in 325 on the island of nicia. The twelve chruches all brought their dogma with them and certain central ideas wer tossed out as unworkable; such as, Jesus taught re-incarnation, which is at the heart of Judaism (Jesus was a Jew afterall and a rabbi). Mentioning this in church got me kicked out as the "Spawn of the Devil!" or some such insult and I've never been back since.
posted on June 14, 2001 10:58:35 AM new
Bobbi, I can sympathize with you entirely. Here is a small list of contradications that I got off of the Internet:
Some Contradictions in the Bible
Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but
a sword. - Matthew 10:34
... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52
***
For wrath killeth the foolish man... - Job 5:2
... let not the sun go down on your wrath. - Ephesians 4:26
***
And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in
heaven. - John 3:13
... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. - 2 Kings 2:11
***
If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. - John 5:31
I am one that bear witness of myself... - John 8:18
[Jesus Christ was the speaker in both of these quotes]
***
A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22
Sell that ye have and give alms... - Luke 12:33
***
Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches shall be in
his house... - Psalms 112:1-3
It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich
man to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24
***
I and my father are one. - John 10:30
... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28
[Jesus Christ was the speaker in both of these quotes]
***
Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13
Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side...
and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27
***
Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8
The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with:
it is iniquity. - Isaih 3:22
***
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything
that is in heaven... earth... [or] water. - Leviticus 26:11
And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make
them. - Exodus 25:18
***
For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works. - Ephesians 2:8-9
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
- James 2:24
***
God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he
should repent. - Numbers 23:19
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
- Exodus 32:14
***
... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his
voice, and come forth... - John 5:28-29
As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the
grave shall come up no more. - Job 7:9
***
... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for
hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for
stripe. - Exodus 21:23-25
... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek,
turn to him the other also. - Matthew 5:39
***
Honor thy father and mother. - Exodus 20:12
If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and
children, and bretheren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot
be my disciple. - Luke 14:26
***
Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth... - Matthew 6:19
In the house of the righteous is much treasure... - Proverbs 15:6
***
I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:30
No man hath seen God at any time. - John 1:18
***
The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. - Ezekiel 18:20
... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the
fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation.
- Exodus 20:5
***
Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
understanding. - Proverbs 3:13
For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge
increaseth sorrow. - Ecclesiastes 1:18
***
The Lord is good to all. - Psalm 145:6
I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7
***
Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22
[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17
***
For all have sinned. - Romans 3:23
There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and
upright. - Job 1:1
***
Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to regin. - 2 Kings 8:26
Fourty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Chronicles 22:2
***
If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do according
to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2
But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by earth.
- Matthew 5:34-35
***
... the earth abideth forever. - Ecclesiastes 1:4
... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works
that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10
***
... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever.
- Jeremiah 3:12
Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
- Jeremiah 17:4
***
... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13
And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham.
- Genesis 22:1
***
And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good.
- Genesis 1:31
And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him
at his heart - Genesis 6:6
***
For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be there
forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually.
- II Corinthians 7:16
Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
- Acts 7:48
***
[God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto. - I Timothy 6:16
The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.
- I Kings 8:12
***
And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he
said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid. - Genesis 3:9,10
Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape.
- John 5:37
***
Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of
Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw God, and did eat and
drink. - Exodus 24: 9-11
Whom no man hath seen nor can see. - I Timothy 6:16
***
With God all things are possible. - Matthew 29:26
And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the
mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because
they had chariots of iron. - Judges 1:19
***
God is not the author of confusion. - I Corinthians 24:33
Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good?
- Lamantations 3:38
***
Those that seek me early shall find me. - Proverbs 8:17
Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall seek me
early, but shall not find me. - Proverbs 1:28
***
On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of attonement;
it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls
and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. - Leviticus 23:27
For I spake not unto your fathers, nor comanded them in the day that I
brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offering or
sacrifices. - Jerimiah 7:22
***
And the priest shall burn all on the altar to be a burnt sacrifice, an
offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the Lord. - Leviticus 1:9
Your burnt offering are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
- Jerimiah 7:20
***
God is not a man, that he should lie - Numbers 23:19
And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have
deceived that prophet. - Ezekial 24:9
***
There is none other God but one. - I Corinthians 8:4
And God said, Let us make man in our image. - Genesis 1:26
***
When ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall borrow of her
neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver and
jewels of gold, and rainment; and ye shall put them on your sons and upon
your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. - Exodus 3:21,22
Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, nether rob him. - Leviticus 19:13
***
At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso
sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. - Genesis 4:5,6
And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.
- Genesis 4:15
***
Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do
they spin... if God so clothe the grass of the field... shall he not much
more clothe you? Therefore, take no thought, saying what shall we eat? or
what shall we drink? or where withal shall we be clothed?... Take,
therefore, no thought for the morrow. - Matthew 6:28, 30-34
But if any provideth not for his own, especially for those of his own
house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.
- I Timothy 5:8
***
Be ye angry and sin not. - Ephesians 4:26
Be not hasty in they spirit to be angry; for anger resideth in the bosom of
fools. - Ecclesiastes 7:9
***
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works.
- Matthew 5:16
Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them.
- Matthew 6:1
***
And Solomon stood before the alter of the Lord, in the presence of all the
congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven...
- I Kings 7:22
When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love
to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that
they may be seen of men... - Matthew 6:5
***
And no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nararite unto
God from the womb. - Judges 8:5
Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man hath long hair, it is
a shame unto him? - I Corinthians 6:14
***
Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8
One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike.
Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. - Romans 14:5
***
For in the six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that
in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the
Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11
And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the
Lord thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a
stretched-out arm; therefore the Lord thy God commanded thee to keep the
Sabbath day. - Deuteronomy 5:15
***
There is nothing unclean of itself. - Romans 14:14
Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud or of them
that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the hare, and the coney; for
they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof, therefore they are unclean unto
you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud,
it is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their
dead carcass. - Deuteronomy 14:7,8
***
Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the
daughter of his mother. - Deuteronomy 27:22
And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but
not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. - Genesis 20:11,12
***
If bretheren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the
wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's
brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife.
- Deuteronomy 25:5
If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing... they
shall be childless. - Leviticus 20:21
***
He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness.
- Mark 3:29
And by him that believe are justified from all things. - Acts 13:39
***
[John the Baptist] is Elias which was for to come. - Matthew 11:14
And they asked him, what then? Art thou [John the Baptist] Elias? And he
saith, I am not. - John 1:21
***
Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching
the gospel of the kingdom of God. - Mark 1:14
After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea...
and John was also baptising Enon... for John was not yet cast into prison.
- John 3:22-24
***
And it was in the third hour, and they crucified him. - Mark 25:3-4
And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour; and
he saith unto the Jews, behold your king... Shall I crucify your king?
- John 19:14-15
***
They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall. - Matthew 27:34
And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh. - Mark 15:23
[Jesus was the thirsty chap in both verses.]
***
And the men which journyed with [Paul] stood speechless, hearing a voice,
but seeing no man. - Acts 9:7
And they that were with me [Paul] saw indeed the light and were afraid; but
they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. - Acts 22:9
***
Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free woman.
- Galtians 4:22
By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only begotten
son. - Hebrews 11:17
***
Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her
death. - II Samuel 6:23
The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul. - II Samuel 21:8
***
And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David
against them to say, Go, number Israel. - II Samuel 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1
***
All power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth. - Matthew 28:18
And [Jesus] could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands on a
few sick folk and healed them. - Mark 6:5
***
There shall no evil happen to the just. - Proverbs 12:21
Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he
receiveth. - Hebrews 12:6
posted on June 14, 2001 11:45:47 AM newRobert Parham, executive director of the Baptist Center for Ethics, issued a statement criticizing the denomination for mixing right-wing politics with religion.
This statement, as well as a couple of other similar ones, conveys what concerns me most about religion today, especially with the so-called fundamentalist organizations. Personally I couldn't care less what anyone chooses to believe about the supernatural, in that I can understand that such beliefs may satisfy psychological needs. To argue those beliefs with reason seems pointless to me since fundamentals, at least, will always revert to faith as a final argument if all else fails. However, when one's personal religious beliefs are taken into the political arena to justify legislation and public policy, then those beliefs must be subject to the same scrutiny and accountability as any other proposed legislative agenda.
In public discourse among people who hold diverse religious opinion, I also find it objectionable when someone presumes to speak for all members of a general belief system, such as Christianity (since that is the most frequently discussed religion on these boards), when it is obvious that not all Christians share the same view, only with perhaps the exception of the divinity of Christ. In matters of individual faith, one cannot logically assume a univerisal voice. I do respect those who are careful to avoid doing so.
Just a couple of thoughts that I've had for some time and now seemed a good time to express them.
posted on June 14, 2001 12:54:38 PM new
Your first paragraph summed it up quite nicely, Antiquary, IMO. I have long believed that once a religious group dips into politics, it looses its religious identity and becomes a polticial entity only. By viewing that entity in the corect light, one can easily discern the true agenda of its leaders and promoters. Since the Fundies are so fond of politics and getting involved in the leglislation, I treat them as political groups, not religious groups. It is hard to say that any such goup that delvesd into politics becomes only a political animal, but such is the way of politics and the world.
posted on June 14, 2001 02:05:43 PM new
Yes, Borillar, and I am also cynical enough to suspect that some political strategists attempt to disguise political views in religious clothing because it is a tactical advantage. Thus opponents of the political ideas can be accused of attacking religion or God, a powerful diversionary tactic. But that also correlates with my point about those who speak for all Christians, in this case. In my point above I mentioned that the only view it might be safe to assume is that all Christians accept the divinity of Christ, but I have in fact known quite a few people who consider themselves Christians and are actively involved in their religious organizations who hedge on even that issue. And some are Southern Baptists, though most are Methodists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, etc. I have also known charismatic Presbyterians and Methodists and at least one Episcopalian who believes in "tongues." And those are traditional, mainstream protestants. I don't know how anyone could presume to speak with the Christian viewpoint.
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Something to think about.