posted on June 15, 2001 10:42:09 AM new
What McVeigh, the militias, so-called patriots and other low-brained mouth-breathers(LBMB) seem to forget is what a great and wonderful work our founding fathers did. Whether consciously or unconsciously, they created a system of government that is greater than any other on the planet. The MAIN reason is is the greatest is its ability to
CHANGE
Change maybe for the better, maybe for the worse, but change.
But to make it better does not require a gun, it requires a vote. It doesn't require military-style training to overthrow the system, but involvement in the system. You do not need to have violent protests and blow things up, but ground-pounding through your neighborhoods letting the issues be known and getting the vote out.
But those latter choices have their downsides...
You don't get on TV
You don't achieve "HERO" status
You don't increase your POWER in the hierarchy, and will these LBMB just admit it, they just want power, to hell with the constitution.
posted on June 16, 2001 11:32:17 AM new
A vote doesn't do much anymore. CASH is what it takes- for "campaign contributions", "informational" trips for legislators,payroll for lobbyists and lawyers.
The only real hope for " the people " to be heard is a new line on the ballot- "none of the above" and if NOTA wins, all candidates are PERMANENTLY barred from ever seeking that office again. New election to be held as soon as possible.
Couple this with FREE TV time for candidates and we might get a real voice.
punctuation
[ edited by dawaford on Jun 16, 2001 11:34 AM ]
posted on June 16, 2001 11:57:20 AM new
The truth is that it takes a revolution to overthrow an entrenched government and with the two mirrored party system and economic control there will never be popular revolution again in this country unless the politicians are stupid enough to cause disruption of the average man's everyday life.
The only other route possible is an unexpected advance in technology that would render the physical control the government enjoys over the population by force of arms void.
i am writing a science fiction noval assuming such a change right now.
posted on June 16, 2001 01:31:44 PM new
The truth is that we do not need a revolution to overthrow our government, and that the two party electoral system, despite its recent subversion by judicial coup d'etat, comes close enough to satisfying the public will to remain much preferable to the alternatives.
While McVeigh and other terrorists may be patriots in their own minds, in truth they are simply murderous nut cases.
posted on June 17, 2001 12:12:18 AM new
believe New Hamshire license plates read "Live Free or Die", and was it Matthew Henry who said "Give me LIBERTY or give me death"? Tim felt he was doing this to try and save America and he is what I term a Zealot. We desparately need to get our country back..its a shame he didn't use all that frustration and anger and direct it in an appropriate way..such as making people aware of WACO and Ruby Ridge, among other things and how the government is abusing it's power over the people. I do not believe he knew children where in that building AND I d not believe he acted alone, which means there are a couple of people running free that could do this again!!
The FBI and BATF had offices in that building but for some reason almost all came to work late. Tim in certainly NOY my hero but I do believe in his cause, I believe we need to get our country back....only I would NEVER go about protesting this belief in the manner he did.
It would be nice if we would give assistance to thje poor people of the Apalachions(sp? don't have my dictionary handy) instead of sending money all over the globe to help others AND sticking our noses in so we can control them!! (I don't need to hear about all the injustice of other countries....go to the mountains and stop nephews from marrying their aunts first). Even the Bible says to help your own FIRST and then reach out and help others.
VIOLENCE ONLY LEADS TO MORE VIOLENCE.. KILLING TO STOP KILLING IS RIDICULOUS!!!
LOVE AND CARING CURES ALMOST ANYTHING..IT JUST TAKES A LITTLE LONGER!! THIS DOESN'T MEAN i AM AGAINST THE MILITARY and the need for them to protect our country..I come from a military family)
It would be great if Americans could embrace our country as a WHOLE instead of just working for a cause here and a cause there
If we could all work together to make this country a bright light..those living in the dark would surely be drawn to this goodness.
P.S. I am NOT a religious fanatic!! What I have said is from love of America and a thirst for the freedom my ancestors came here to find and had to fight for.
Please forgive misspellings..its very early in the morning.
posted on June 17, 2001 03:41:52 AM new
"LIVE FREE OR DIE", yes, our plates state that.
"GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH", yes, Henry said that.
McVeigh a patriot, mayhap in his mind, but not in mine.
But here is the scariest thing of all: I find myself agreeing with KRS!! God does work miracles, eh? Just not on my spelling it seems...
Just one last thing; monitoring devices are everywhere~look atop your street lights, buildings and other places. Orwells 1984 may have finally come true.
Rick
In the begining, God created the heavens and the earth.
posted on June 17, 2001 04:12:09 AM new
Just do some research on Carnivore or Echelon to see Where our Government is at regarding our privacy and freedoms. It is truly scary.
"I do not believe he knew children where in that building AND I d not believe he acted alone, which means there are a couple of people running free that could do this again!!"-dameheron
Of course he knew that some children would be in that building. What are the odds of bombing some Government building during business hours and there not being any kids in the entire building? However, there is no question that he did not act alone, and scarier still is the fact that all of the ATF agents (just the agency that would be investigating the use of those types of bombs) were conveniently out of the building during the blast. I don't understand how that works. They have offices in the building, and yet on a weekday, during normal Government business hours, none of the ATF agents were in the building. Their offices were emptied completely prior to the blast. That doesn't sit well with me.
posted on June 17, 2001 06:37:13 AM new
ummm, it was Patrick Henry, not Mathew. Mathew lived in Detroit and was considered to be an idiot. Evidently he blathered incessantly and was an embarrassment to the family, which is why they'd sent him to live with Pontiac indians.
Later he became a carnival sideshow for a while, but that failed when no body would pay to see him drool on his shirtfront.
posted on June 17, 2001 08:30:42 AM new
McVeigh is reported to have cased the joint well enough to be aware that his intended victims included children in day care. However the FBI and BATF personal he was more interested also did not deserve to be murdered.
That he was motivated by perverted political fantasy gives him no more claim to our respect than Jeffrey Dalmer earned.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:09:54 AM new
"However the FBI and BATF personal he was more interested also did not deserve to be murdered."-figmente
They weren't. Like we pointed out earlier in the thread, the federal agents apparently knew enough to get out of the building before the blast. Kinda wish they would of let the kids know ahead of time, too.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:41:32 AM newits a shame he didn't use all that frustration and anger and direct it in an appropriate way..such as making people aware of WACO and Ruby Ridge, among other things and how the government is abusing it's power over the people.
posted on June 17, 2001 10:13:37 AM new
Does anyone believe that the FBI released the additional documents out of the goodness of their hearts or their sense of fairness?
I think that they released them because they were in imminent danger of their being disclosed by some other party, and I think that they released only those portions which might have been compromising to them if released after the execution.
I'd bet that there is a vast amount of information which was not released and that it is now safely prevented from ever being released.
Always consider what is found in the media to be only the tip of an iceberg.
posted on June 17, 2001 12:45:56 PM new
That "liberty" should include the right to indiscriminantly murder FBI and BATF agents is indeed a perverted political fantasy. That WACO ended so badly shows that the feds are not perfect, but the confrontation started with the murder of federal agents and extensive patience, risk, and effort were expended toward a more peaceful defusing of the situation.
posted on June 17, 2001 01:27:50 PM new
What situation? Do you mean that about the need to serve some innocuous warrant?
It's just come out that there has been an acknowledgement that incendiary grenades were used in Waco. No more claim that the branch davidians set their own fires.
There were many children in that compound, or haven't you heard?
posted on June 17, 2001 03:25:10 PM new
No, that's the old line. Tere's now an admission that the grenades were fired into the compound, not as described in that supposed full story. I saw it in passing last week, and didn't keep it as it didn't surprise me and no one was trying to foust the fed line as now.
posted on June 17, 2001 03:54:32 PM newThat "liberty" should include the right to indiscriminantly murder FBI and BATF agents is indeed a perverted political fantasy.
Observe that, as taught in American schools, it did include the "right" to indiscriminatly murder redcoats, and other representatives of the king's government.
Because they were oppressive, and we were endowed by God with a right to freedom.
posted on June 17, 2001 04:30:26 PM new
Strange, that isn't what I learned in school. The colonists tried for years to get the British government to change things before they resorted to violence & revolution.
posted on June 17, 2001 04:46:55 PM new
"The entire tragedy at Mount Carmel can be laid at the feet of this one individual," Smith said. "The adult Davidians kept the children in the compound after starting the fire rather than sending them to safety."
That incendiary tear-gas grenades were shot into the compound has been fully admitted, there is also plenty of evidence that the fires were not started by these but set by the Davidians.
Some fruitcakes will always prefer to believe murderers who talk to god over anyone with respectible credentials.
McVeigh deserves no more respect for mass murder inspired by perverted politcal fantasy than do Dalmer, Speck, or Gacy for murdering out of sexual perversion, or the high school kids who've decided it would be "kewl" to shoot their mates out of pubescent angst.
posted on June 17, 2001 05:47:21 PM new
Just who are you calling "fruitcake", figmente?
There has been a very recent admission, by the "respectable credentials" that you mention, that the fires were probably not started by the davidians and were very likely started by the incendiary devices.
Now, you've repeated your stance several times without embellishment of new information. I'm sure that everyone reading understands your point of view.
posted on June 17, 2001 06:49:40 PM newStrange, that isn't what I learned in school. The colonists tried for years to get the British government to change things before they resorted to violence & revolution.
So, as it was taught in your town, Bunnicula, how would one know when the time for trying was up and the time for violence and revolution had come?
posted on June 17, 2001 08:56:33 PM new
I've spent a very moderate amount of time reviewing news reports of waco and find no such admission. I have seen that a poll indicating that 61% of the population has misinterpreted the admissions that incendiary tear gas grenades were fired as meaning that they started the fires. I also find uncontradicted reports of that the Davidians started the fires. As they died, they do not face prosecution for this and have not been further in the news. There has, rightfully, been much second guessing, both official and unofficial, as to what the law enforcement personnel could've, should've, might've done differently in the Waco siege to defuse the standoff with less force. This was always their goal and their errors do not change that the full culpability for all the lives lost lies with David Koresh and his disciples.
posted on June 17, 2001 09:42:20 PM new
It was a link within a New York Times headline. Though they send me a compilation daily, they only have a one week free archive and I don't pay for more.
posted on June 17, 2001 11:09:13 PM new
I'm not going to engage in a "framist, founding father" or "patriot" argument here.
Fact: The government is responsible for escalating conflicts or disputes between (call them what you may, but this is my description) extremist groups, be they religious,qausi-political, or racist.
Fact: The government acted in standoffs at WACO and Ruby Ridge. People died. Including innocent children. The government action is criticized: Things were handled poorly.
Fact: The Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City is blown up, we later learn to avenge the Waco and Ruby Ridge deaths. One Hundred Sixty Eight people are killed, including scores of children, and other innocent folk.
Fact: After six years, Timothy James McVeigh is put to death June 12, 2001 by the government he so despised following his federal conviction for the Oklahoma City bombing. He confesses his role, never naming others. He wants to die a martyr.
I think the facts are clear and relevant, despite my own misgivings about the death penalty. This was a case for someone to atone for their actions.
McVeigh was not a patriot. Actually, his views bordered on racist and homophobic tenets.
posted on June 17, 2001 11:22:43 PM newroofguy:So, as it was taught in your town, Bunnicula, how would one know when the time for trying was up and the time for violence and revolution had come?
The colonists protested for 11 years--first the Sugar Act, then the Quartering Act, then the Stamp Tax, and then the Townshend Acts. After 4,000 troops were landed in Boston, relations worsened. Gradually physical acts of protest built up. When colonists pelting British troops with snowballs were fired upon the physical protests increased, includin the burning of the revenue cutter Gaspee when it ran aground. The Tea Acts were passed, leading to the Boston Tea Party in which 90,000 pounds of tea were thrown into Boston Harbour. The British government then passed the Intolerable Acts (known as "Coersive Acts" in England) which included the forced closing of Boston Harbor, the overthrowing of the Massachusetts government & replacing it with a Royal governor, and the quartering of more British soldiers throughout the colonies.
The first Continental Congress met & reached the agreement to stop all trade with England until the Intolerable Acts were repealed (but turned down demands by more radical delegates for immediate formation of an army). They issued a petition to George III called the Declaration of Rights and Grievances. Canada was ivited to join in it
The British government ignored the petition. Fighting broke out between the colonists & British troops. The Second Continental Congress met in May 1775 & Washington was put in charge of organizing an army. In July 1775 the colonies declared their independence. George III ingored attempts at reconciliation and issued proclamation for suppressing rebellion & sedition in the colonies and hired 20,000 Hessian mercenaries to fight in American colonies.
Seems to me that after 11 years of verbal protests & attempts to reason with the British government on the part of leading citizens, and increasing harassment by Britain, that the use of violence by the colonists was understandable.
God does work miracles, eh? Just not on my spelling it seems...