posted on August 23, 2001 04:10:13 PM new
Hi, I have a customer who wanted to return a product outside of the warranty period. I advised him that he couldnt return it because it was out of warranty.
Next thing I know he files a complaint with paypal.
How does this process work? I mean he received the product and had 30 days to return if defective. He didnt return it, so how can he do this?
If paypal rules against me what happends?
Do they withdraw funds from my paypal account or can they withdraw funds directly from my bank account?
Im a little upset to the fact that this guy is doing this and I have no experiance in this situation.
If anyone has any advice, opinions or something to make me feel better please write.
posted on August 23, 2001 04:33:20 PM new
PayPal will not get directly involved, unless you develop a pattern of such complaints.
If the item was paid for by credit card, the buyer may get his credit card company involved, which may result in a chargeback. The buyer must return the merchandise.
If the item was paid for by credit card, the time to make peace with this buyer is now.
In all of these cases, your warranty period is irrelevant; generally, a credit card company will not process such disputes after about 3 months, but given reason, some will do so up to about 6 months.
[ edited by roofguy on Aug 23, 2001 04:37 PM ]
posted on August 23, 2001 04:40:05 PM new
But it was clearly out of warranty. I cant even return the product to my vendor. They have the same policies.
Why even have a tos or warranty period if they can just void it...
posted on August 23, 2001 04:46:21 PM new
He paid by credit card. Man this stinks. This guy is going to get his money back after returning a product outside its warranty period. I cant believe this is happening.
posted on August 23, 2001 05:18:45 PM new
It sounds like the buyer has not as yet disputed the charge with his credit card company. The buyer may never do that, and it is in your best interest that he never does.
PayPal will respond to buyer "we don't get involved with quality of merchandise disputes". The buyer may take that as final, some sellers take a bet that they will. However, if you lose the bet, and buyer disputes with the credit card company, you will end up on the incoming end of a chargeback by PayPal. The credit card company will not contatat you, they will contact PayPal, who will pass the chargeback on.
During this period, you can make peace such that the buyer does not dispute the charge on his card.
While laws covering debit card purchases vary from those covering credit card purchases, real banks usually treat them very close to the same. If you return the presumably defective item to your vendor, and request a refund, your position will be very similar to that of your buyer. Your vendor will probably give you a refund rather than risk the chargeback and other loss of goodwill.
posted on August 23, 2001 05:24:13 PM new
So basicly I should never accept credit cards through paypal? only balance transfers and bank account transfers????
posted on August 23, 2001 05:27:37 PM new
I don't know the type of thing this is, but a manufacturer can replace a defective item at the least cost, so it usually makes economic sense for them to be the warranty of last resort. This is ordinary business, there is no reason why your vendor should expect you to be stuck holding the defective item.
PayPal will not withdraw funds from your bank account without your permission (as stated very clearly in the TOU and many times here by Damon).
They do withdraw funds from your PayPal account if they end up passing on a chargeback. If you don't have sufficient funds, and never do, the uncollected amount becomes an ordinary debt you owe to PayPal.
posted on August 23, 2001 05:29:57 PM newSo basicly I should never accept credit cards through paypal?
This is just my opinion, and I don't necessarily expect you or anyone else to agree, but basically you should develop a relationship with your vendor which allows you to return defective items which you yourself end up having to take back.
posted on August 23, 2001 05:39:04 PM new
wish i could with my vendor. we came up with a very clear business policy. Unfortunately thats not something i can do as an option.
I guess I should just look forward to oweing paypal $200.
Do you accepyt credit cards?
Also btw. you have been very kind, understading, and extremely helpfull...
If it wasnt for you i think i would be bounceing off the walls right now..
posted on August 23, 2001 07:09:15 PM new
This is why I advise folks to never accept a credit card through Paypal. If you do, your customers can charge back anything at any time for any reason. You have no protection. Right now you have two choices. 1) Empty your paypal account and never use it again to save the $200 or 2) expect to get the item back and have the money taken out of your PP account.
posted on August 24, 2001 11:26:01 AM new
This might be a dumb question, but when requesting a chargeback from the credit card company. Do they get the money from PayPal first and then PayPal goes after the seller?
posted on August 24, 2001 12:21:15 PM new
cc company will go after paypal amd paypal comes after us/
but credit card companies do not just process these chargebacks,especially if the buyer still have the merchandise.
first let him keep the merchandise,when the chargeback comes,produce evidence he has the merchandise,buyer cannot have the cake and eat it too-get chargeback and have the merchandise.
second i fhe tried to return it to you,do not accept it.
with usps,just say no,and give it back to your postman.
if ups or fedex,sont sign for the package until you knwo where it comes from,if it is from him,just say NO/
there is a shop in new orleans french quarter which cheat customers ,they have a small line on the credit card receipt which say no cash refund.
if you want to return it,you have to do so in person and buy another item,
if you try to sneak in your package via mail like on a busy day,well,they are trained to refuse any package coming from sources they dont do business with.
they have a very bad reputation with the local chamber of commerce,but many are tourists,how can they return something once they return to germany or japan.
one thing i heard is to call your cc and ask them to block the transaction before it is processed,do not wait till end of month when statement arrives and dispute.
fight crooks fast!!
posted on August 24, 2001 01:58:56 PM newwith usps,just say no,and give it back to your postman.
Really bad plan.
If there's one way to end up with neither the money or the merchandise, this is it.
The requirement of buyer is that the buyer return the merchandise, or try to return the merchandise.. Either will satisfy most/all credit card companies.
posted on August 24, 2001 02:14:12 PM new
The credit card companies will give the merchant an opportunity to respond to a charge back if the merchant has clearly defined and reasonable sales terms that are posted on the site or store and on the bill of sale. The customer can not present a bill of sale with the terms on it and then pretend they don't apply. However, "all sales final" are usually not acceptable. "Returns within 15 days or a restocking fee applies" usually are.
But in this case, my guess is you have two things working against you:
1) you probably do not have a clear return policy printed on your sales receipt
2) even if you do, payment was made through Paypal. It is a lot easier for them to just let the charge back go through and hit you with it than to fight it. Not that paypal is the only guilty one. Billpoint and Paydirect are even worse. They will even let the same buyer do it many times.
posted on August 24, 2001 04:47:26 PM new
There is a minor disadvantage when working with PayPal, but it is far less than Yisgood claims.
The disadvantage is that with a regular merchant account, the merchant has a chance to make peace far later in the process. The merchant can see if the buyer really does file a dispute, and if so, and only if so, the merchant comes through with the refund, and the buyer can then drop the chargeback.
Return policies are irrelvant with respect to quality of merchandise disputes. Because they require interpretation, judgement, and are difficult to verify, the card issuing bank will not consider them at all. Credit card banks resolve quality of merchandise disputes as a matter of procedure, deliberatly avoiding any judgement beyond a determination that the procedure has been followed by the buyer.
With PayPal, at least as we know it today, the seller is not necessarily notified of the chargeback until it is too late to make peace with the buyer.
posted on August 25, 2001 08:55:19 PM new
You might be interested in this thread:
http://www.auctionwatch.com/mesg/read.html?num=47&thread=3104&id=3548 where it was clearly demonstrated that vendors are allowed to have their own return policies and credit card companies very often allow them to stand.
Anyone who tries to tell you that the customer ALWAYS wins is just plain wrong unless of course, the customer used paypal.
posted on August 26, 2001 10:33:25 AM new
Yes, an example of a merchant winning a quality of merchandise credit card dispute was discussed in that thread.
The merchant won the chargeback dispute by improving the quality of a carpet installation, after which the buyer dropped the dispute.
posted on August 26, 2001 10:39:37 AM new
I keep suggesting that certain posters take a remedial reading class. Someone forgot to mention a dozen examples of merchants winning charge backs without doing anything except contesting it and many examples of leading websites which post terms such as "returns within ten days," "returns for defective items only" and "15% restocking fee for returns." But I guess our remedial reader believes that Compusa, Buy.com, Egghead, Walmart and the many other vendors mentioned never got a charge back so they are yet unaware that this won't work.
posted on August 26, 2001 11:20:39 AM new
I do understand that this is a confusing question, and not accidentally so. The entire industry has used obfuscation of this issue as a defense against consumer abuse.
Secondly, it just doesn't help the seeker of truth when, for example, a poster describes winning the chargeback by showing proof of delivery.
It doesn't help when someone else points to that posting as proof that sellers can win chargebacks. Or points to a long list of such stories as if they are relevant to the analysis at hand.
It doesn't help when someone suggests that a posted returns policy implies that a credit card company must take such a policy into account. There is no cause and effect here, beyond the obvious intent by the seller to discourage a buyer from forcing the return. The analysis of the initiator of this thread when acting as a buyer is a concise example. An agreement between vendor and seller was respected, and the return was not forced (even in plan). It could have been, but perhaps at the expense of a good vendor relationship.
It IS confusing, but it helps to apply logic to the analysis.
[ edited by roofguy on Aug 26, 2001 12:21 PM ]
