posted on September 6, 2001 11:16:46 PM new
I have been using PayPal for over 2 years now with no problems. On June 16th of this year, I accepted a payment from a customer for $200 for services rendered for him. Well, I have received several more payments from this same fellow totalling well over a thousand dollars over the past 2 and a half months. Well, I receive word 3 DAYS AGO that may account had been placed on restriction. How did I find out?? I tried to purchase lunch at a restaurant with some friends and my PayPal Mastercard was denied! Talk about embarrassing!! I rushed home, logged onto their site and found the restriction. I contacted them and all they would tell me was that there was evidence of "unauthorized use of a credit card" and that was it. They wanted me to fax them a copy of my DL, a recent credit card statement, a copy of a recent utility bill, a copy of my last bank statement and a copy of that email. YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING ME!! I replied that I was not going to be sending them anything except a copy of my DL and that the rest has nothing to do with PayPal. They emailed back and said that the funds of June 16th (almost 3 months earlier) had been sent using a fraudulent credit card. They then took the $200 out of my account and are wanting me to supply them with a lot of information to get my account restored. I contacted my customer and HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING! I am waiting to find out what is next on the merry-go-round.
Why didn't PayPal notify me at the least by email and I think in a situation like this, a phone call would have been appropriate. Also, why did it have to be 3 months later? Don't they have some way to verify credit cards that doesn't take so long? A lot of your memory fades about details over such a long time, especially when you have a lot of customers. Also, what about the other payments that have been sent by this person? He has assured me that he has not charged money to his account using a credit card; he receives money as I do and then sends the money in his account out to me along with some others. I have dealt with him for a while and have developed a good relationship with him. I don't believe he would lie to me about this.
It seems to me that PayPal can just put you over a barrel at anytime they want to. I have been a good customer and have had a lot of money in fees deducted from my account for PayPal. It seems to me that if anyone ought to "eat" this one, it ought to be PayPal. I haven't received any credit card numbers and haven't taken a fraudulent credit card. It ought to be up to PayPal to investigate this matter and to take appropriate action if something is amiss. Does anyone know what my options are if this thing goes against me? I am an optimistic person and hope that everything comes out okay, but it is MY MONEY and I want to be able to use it as I see fit.
posted on September 7, 2001 07:34:12 AM new
I suggest you post this in the AW partner services - paypal section. Also, send an email to [email protected]. He can usually get answers when customer service drops the ball.
posted on September 7, 2001 08:58:17 AM newI contacted my customer and HE DOESN'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT ANYTHING!
Clearly, the situation is complicated. It may turn out to only look bad, or it may in fact be that you have been victimized. We must consider the potential that your customer actually knows plenty.
Consider this kind of story. Crook sets up two accounts, one of which is funded by someone else's credit card. Crook transfers money from the fraudulent account to 2nd account. Uses 2nd account to buy $thousands of services from MarMac2001.
2 months latter the crap hits the fan, and the fraud investigators look fast and hard.
From the investigators point of view, this latter hop is simply one more link in the "follow the money" chain, and looks suspicious as hell.
Surely, the best way to proceed is to establish that you yourself are not part of some fraud.
posted on September 7, 2001 09:01:26 AM newHe can usually get answers when customer service drops the ball.
PayPal customer service has not always been perfect, but you can't fault them for inaction in the face of a suspicious looking situation and an uncooperative customer.
posted on September 7, 2001 09:52:08 AM new
>>PayPal customer service has not always been perfect, but you can't fault them for inaction in the face of a suspicious looking situation and an uncooperative customer.<<
If someone bounces a check that you deposited, would your bank would be justified inresponds by invalidating your credit card without even calling you and then demanding a ton of personal information because there is a suspicious looking situation? There is NO excuse for taking unilateral action without even contacting the customer and NO excuse for not providing basic customer service.
posted on September 7, 2001 04:03:53 PM newyisgoodwould your bank would be justified inresponds by invalidating your credit card without even calling you and then demanding a ton of personal information because there is a suspicious looking situation?
I rarely used one credit card, but I decided to use it exclusively on a vacation. I was paying for hotel rooms, meals, gifts, entertainment, and then oops... suddenly the charges weren't being authorized. The reason, I was suddenly using the card heavily and it sent up warning flags. Maybe the bank jumped the gun, maybe the bank should have waited till the statement was disputed, the point is they did act when they became suspicious, they simply did the smart thing and blocked the card. It was a little known bank, Bank of America. I had to call them and give them information that satisfied them I was the legitimate card holder and I was allowed to continue toward my credit limit.
posted on September 7, 2001 06:47:31 PM new
Hi MarMac2001,
I don't recall getting an email about this. Please send me the appropriate details to [email protected]. If this has been resolved, please let the other users know.
posted on September 8, 2001 07:18:25 AM new
credit card issuer and their processing centers are becoming verygood at spotting fraudulant trends.
a common scenario is that someone stole your card and try to spend as fast and as much as possible,if he is buying,he will go on a shopping spree buying items which he can resell,electronic goods are their favorites,or go on vacation-eat drink and be merry.
so each day (used to be at nite,now it could be 24 hours round the clock) they accumulate the charges you made and have computed daily average usage,monthly and weekly avarages,your payment habits-how prompt are you in sending payments etc,do you use cash advance and how much ??
so if one day,your spending surge ,alarm will be set off and someone will take a look.
they can also verify if you ever do business with certain institution.
there is no privacy any more,from your charges,they can tell what time you leave the house,where do you go,how much gas you put in your car,how many times you eat out,buy books,clothes,shoes?how much you spend on grocery,what kind of vacation do you take and what kind of medicine ??
posted on September 8, 2001 06:21:20 PM new
Uaru: If you are trying to compare your experience with Paypal users', there is no comparison.
>>I rarely used one credit card,<<
This user DID use his paypal account
>> but I decided to use it exclusively on a vacation. I was paying for hotel rooms, meals, gifts, entertainment,<<
You went from no use to a whole lot of use. You were on vacation and the bank had no way to contact you. This user had been using his paypal account all along. Paypal had his email id. There was no excuse for a complete lack of contact.
>>I had to call them and give them information that satisfied them I was the legitimate card holder and I was allowed to continue toward my credit limit.<<
They didnt ask you to fax them your driver's license, utility bill, last credit card statement and bank statement. They asked some questions that proved your identity. Now why can't paypal follow the same standards that ALL reputable banks and credit cards do? If your CC company had told you that your card would be blocked until you faxed them in all this info, you would be steamed. So why can't you understand the justified anger that all these folks have against PP?
posted on September 8, 2001 08:01:34 PM new
if you are the legitimate owner of the card,you have nothing to fear,so if they ask for more than one id such as driver license.
if someone stole your card,he could have stolen your wallet which has the card(s),driver license ,social security card,but seldom would anyone carry his utility bill in the wallet or marriage license.
sometimes i see people sunbathing and left thier wallet behind-sometimes the wallet is 4-6 inches thick,wonder how many credit cards are in there??
posted on September 9, 2001 09:23:27 AM newThey asked some questions that proved your identity. Now why can't paypal follow the same standards that ALL reputable banks and credit cards do?
yisgood, your claim regarding what any bank does regarding fraud defense, let alone all banks, is simply wrong. You don't know everything they do, I don't either. I do know that they get better all the time, and they don't discuss much of what they do in public.
That's the way it is when YOU are the one who will lose from fraud. You defend yourself. Sometimes those defenses seem unfriendly when observed by someone looking for something, anything, to gripe about.
Sure, it would be optimal to offer no defense toward those who represent no threat...in the same way that optimal investing is "buy low sell high".
posted on September 9, 2001 09:47:32 AM new
>>yisgood, your claim regarding what any bank does regarding fraud defense, let alone all banks, is simply wrong. <<
Roofguy, it's time you got off the roof. I think you've gotten sunstroke. I am not making any claims. We have just heard from your fellow paypal cheerleader that when fraud was suspected with his credit card, he was able to correct the problem easily while on vacation. So it should be pretty obvious that they did not ask him to fax his bank statement, credit card statement, driver's license and utility bill unless he is in the habit of taking these with him on vacation. So whatever information they asked him should be enough for Paypal as well. It is these endless requirements for more info and more faxing that drives folks up the wall. And do we want to go into all those folks who DID fax this info only to have Paypal ask for it over and over again?
posted on September 9, 2001 12:07:34 PM new
Yisgood,
Earlier you stated "NO excuse for taking unilateral action without even contacting the customer" I offered an example of when Bank of America took unilateral action on my credit card when they suspected fraud. The issue MarMac seems to have is accepting multiple unauthorized payments from a credit card. In such a case how much warning do you feel should be given before those funds are 'restricted'?
Since MarMac has stated he accepted these payments for 'services' then there seems to be little he'll be able to offer as far as proving delivery confirmation to the credit card holder's confirmed billing address.
posted on September 9, 2001 12:15:38 PM new
>>Earlier you stated "NO excuse for taking unilateral action without even contacting the customer" I offered an example of when Bank of America took unilateral action on my credit card when they suspected fraud.<<
And as I have already replied, your credit card company had no way to contact you. Paypal did have the customer's email ID. The credit card company did give you an 800 number to call and a quick, easy way to correct the problem. Paypal wants this customer to jump through hoops. But why don't you tell us, if your credit card company had said that they were blocking your card until you sent them a bank statement, utility bill, driver's license and last credit card statement, would you have been happy?
posted on September 9, 2001 12:32:21 PM newBut why don't you tell us, if your credit card company had said that they were blocking your card until you sent them a bank statement, utility bill, driver's license and last credit card statement, would you have been happy?
Yigood,
No they only required some personal ID that I supplied. Please remember this is a bit different than PayPal I wasn't using my Bank America credit card to accept payments that had been disputed.
Now in turn can you please answer my question that I'm posing for the second time.
The issue MarMac seems to have is accepting multiple unauthorized payments from a credit card. In such a case how much warning do you feel should be given before those funds are 'restricted'?
posted on September 9, 2001 12:49:15 PM new
I have said several times that no warning must be given before accounts or funds are restricted provided that:
1) paypal send the account holder and email explaining why this was done and
2) paypal gives a hotline number to someone who can fix the problem quickly.
At least 8 months ago, someone from paypal promised me that this would be implemented "soon." But I guess their definition of "soon" matches the dictionary's as closely as their definition of "free," "always," "never," and "protection." Paypal is an Internet pioneer in more ways than one. They pioneered Internet payments and they pioneered the practice of delivering promises by redefining the words contained within. In the same vein I can claim:
-everything said on the boards about Paypal is true (using paypal's definition of "everything" and "true"
posted on September 9, 2001 01:02:28 PM new
I'm glad you agree no warning should be given when fraud is suspected on an account.
BTW, for the record Bank of America made no attempt to contact me before or after my credit card was blocked that I'm aware of. Yes I was on vacation but my girlfriend was at home and my answering machine was working.
posted on September 9, 2001 01:16:58 PM new
>>for the record Bank of America made no attempt to contact me before or after my credit card was blocked that I'm aware of. Yes I was on vacation but my girlfriend was at home and my answering machine was working.<<
So they did screw up at first. At least they were able to correct the problem quickly.
>>I'm glad you agree no warning should be given when fraud is suspected on an account. <<
You haven't answered my questions. If Bank of America had blocked your card until you faxed them your driver's license, bank statement, credit card statement and utility bill, would you have considered this good customer service? Is there ever a point where you will admit that Paypal falls way short of it? Or is anything they do okay as long as they don't do it to you?
posted on September 10, 2001 09:23:12 AM new
MarMac2001,
RE: "I am waiting to find out what is next on the merry-go-round."
If there was a problem with a transaction that occurred on June 16th, why did it take PayPal almost three months to inform you? This is a real strange way to treat a customer thats been with them for two years. According to PayPal's privacy policy, when an incident like the one you describe happens, (if PayPal thinks there is fraud involved) they will ask you two security questions. No where in their privacy statement do they say that they will
ever ask for a copy of your DL, a recent credit card statement, a copy of a recent utility bill, a copy of your last bank statement. The way I read PayPals privacy Statement is that if PayPal can not verify your orginal information, then PayPal can ask for the above additional information. If PayPal verified the orginal information that you gave them two years ago, then it looks to me that they should be asking you about those two security questions if they think that you were a party of fraud.
posted on September 10, 2001 10:26:11 AM newIf there was a problem with a transaction that occurred on June 16th, why did it take PayPal almost three months to inform you?
The more relevant question, why did it take the cardholder longer than about a month to notice an unauthorized charge.
PayPal would not wait when presented with evidence of fraud. Reaction speed is important in limiting loss.
then it looks to me that they should be asking you about those two security questions if they think that you were a party of fraud.
When there is fraud, the investigator follows the money. When the investigator encounters a person who received the money (as compared to a disconnected phone number), the investigator must verify that the recipient of the funds was not part of the fraud. Frequently, the recipient of the funds WAS part of the fraud. In cases where the recipient was himself a victim, the inconvenience is regrettable but absolutely necessary in a search for the truth.
posted on September 10, 2001 04:37:45 PM new
Sorry Roofguy,
RE:"The more relevant question, why did it take the cardholder longer than about a month to notice an unauthorized charge."
It looks like I must of read MarMac2001 post of September 6, 2001 wrong. I thought for sure he stated:
"Well, I receive word 3 DAYS AGO that may account had been placed on restriction. How did I find out?? I tried to purchase lunch at a restaurant with some friends and my PayPal Mastercard was denied! Talk about embarrassing!! I rushed home, logged onto their site and found the restriction. I contacted them and all they would tell me was that there was evidence of "unauthorized use of a credit card"."
I'll take your word for it that the cardholder took longer than about a month to notice an unauthorized charge. To be honest with you Roofguy,it looks like I must be reading a different post than what you are reading and responding to.
RE: PayPal would not wait when presented with evidence of fraud. Reaction speed is important in limiting loss. Love to hear about PayPal's speed, in this case almost three months later.
Again my questions, Why did it take PayPal almost three months to inform MarMac2001? Why is PayPal not in compliance whith their privacy policy that is stated on their web site.
[ edited by bburd51 on Sep 10, 2001 04:41 PM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 09:58:48 PM newbburd51Why did it take PayPal almost three months to inform MarMac2001?
I believe the point that roofguy was trying to make is charges were made from the same credit card for months after the original charge. If the credit card had been reported for unauthorized use in June then payments would not have been allowed to continue for months later.
Original PostOn June 16th of this year, I accepted a payment from a customer for $200 for services rendered for him. Well, I have received several more payments from this same fellow totalling well over a thousand dollars over the past 2 and a half months.
The delay would have had to come from the card holder either that or PayPal casually let the account holder accept payments from an unauthorized credit card and use the funds for months. Also since the original poster wasn't shipping a product to a confirmed billing address he was accepting a risk that is spelled out rather clearly.
bburd51No where in their privacy statement do they say that they will ever ask for a copy of your DL, a recent credit card statement, a copy of a recent utility bill, a copy of your last bank statement.
You are wrong. I believe if you look at PayPal's privacy policy they address that matter rather clearly.
If we cannot verify the information that you provide, or if you request a withdrawal by check to an address other than your verified credit card billing address, we ask you to send us additional information by fax (such as your drivers’ license, credit card statement, and/or a recent utility bill or other information linking you to the applicable address), or to answer additional questions online to help verify your information.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:49:17 PM new
uaru,
Thanks for helping to clear up roofguy's post.
If I am wrong in my thinking about MarMac2001 post, let me know. MarMac2001 has a PayPal Mastercharge. In order for MarMac2001 to have received this card, he/she had to have a PayPal account. To open a PayPal account he/she needed to provided name, address, phone number, email address and answers to two security questions.(this information is necessary for PayPal to process transactions, issue a new password if one forgets or loses their password, protect against credit card fraud and checking account fraud, and to contact one should the need arise in administering ones PayPal account) Since MarMac2001 has been a member with PayPal for two years and received a PayPal credit card, the information at this point in time should have been verified. According to PayPal's privacy Policy,
"Information About You from third Parties"
In order to protect all our customers against potential fraud, we verify with third parties the information you provided. In the cours of such verification, we receive personally identifiable information about you from such services. In particular, if you register a credit card or debit card with PayPal, we will use card authorization and fraud screening services to verify that your card information and address matches the information that you supplied to PayPal, and that the card has not been reported as stolen."
"Additional Verification"
If we cannot verify the information that you provide, or if you request a withdrawal by check to an address other than your verified credit card billing address, we ask you to send us additional information by fax (such as your drivers’ license, credit card statement, and/or a recent utility bill or other information linking you to the applicable address), or to answer additional questions online to help verify your information."
This last clause kicks in when PayPal can not verify the information that was provided or if a request for a withdrawal by check to an address other than your verified credit card billing address. If a user is receiving a credit card billing to his address from PayPal master card, it seems as if the information that he submitted to PayPal has been verified.
posted on September 11, 2001 02:02:58 AM newbburd51If a user is receiving a credit card billing to his address from PayPal master card, it seems as if the information that he submitted to PayPal has been verified.
The user in question is dealing with a PayPal debit card, no statements or bills are sent to any address. The debit card was sent to a confirmed address (months ago it seems.) Perhaps there is some question of that address or other contact information is valid now. I don't have the details, so I don't know. The point I offered was PayPal's request for the user to supply additional information by fax does not violate PayPal's TOU.
posted on September 11, 2001 12:38:07 PM new
Hi MarMac2001,
The account management team is working on your case. I can also cover the reason why the account was flagged (sender and recipient) here if you would like. I would simply need your permission to do so.
posted on September 11, 2001 08:55:23 PM new
uaru,
It may not violate PayPal's TOU, but it looks to me that it violates PayPal's stated privacy policy. I feel there are agencies that would be interested in privacy violations and other consumer issues. Thus giving some options for others who are having the same issues with PayPal.
posted on September 20, 2001 11:04:45 AM new
You will be lucky to get a reply -- when I submitted my own complaint case to Paypal their published policy says that the complaint will be addressed by them within 30 days.
Well I lodged my complaint on fraudulent goods on August 9th -- it is now September 20th and I still have no status. I called Paypal today and just got a runaround from a customer rep. In fact the rep cut me off and then called me back, I think she was worried that her conversation with me was being monitored.
Just my personal opinion but I am increasingly of the impression (my own personal opinion) that Paypal is publishing and supplying false information to it's members about their policies and procedures, and these allegations relate to another posting of mine in this forum. Thx, steve
