I recently sold a $1000 Ms. Pac Man video game on ebay and took PayPal for it. The buyer used a credit card, and I shipped the item via Forward Air. Now I find out the charges have been reversed because of "non-received merchandise." I got the signed airbill from Forward Air and faxed it to PayPal along with other documents about the case, but I cannot get an answer from PayPal customer service as to whether or not they got them (they did say they'd have someone call me... holding breath). I should be covered under the Seller Protection Policy (used the verified address on the airbill and got a signature) but I'm really scared for the future of my PayPal account since I was told by one rep that this takes 6 months to investigate (I've talked to 4 reps so far during this, and gotten different answers about what would happen, although all agreed that I would be covered for the loss).
The scamming buyer (can I post her name?) is currently auctioning on ebay and refuses to respond.
Anyway, this is the first problem I've had using PayPal, and I know it's not PayPal's fault, unless they fail to defend me or protect my account. I don't think I'll take PayPal on large items in the future just because I can't afford for buyers to have this kind of power to commit fraud.
posted on March 12, 2002 08:23:44 PM new
It is a good thing that the buyer filed a non-recipt of goods chargeback. There might be a chance you'll get your money back after awhile. If the buyer filed a quality of goods chargeback, PayPal will not defend you, for any reason. If the buyer did this there would be a 0% chance of getting your money back.
posted on March 12, 2002 09:37:25 PM new
Well, frankly I wonder how any payment company could accurately deal with "Quality of Goods" issues. Even if PayPal flew employees all over the country looking at the items in question it could be very hard to say if the item violated the description. Sometimes sellers are too "optimistic" in their descriptions, and sometimes buyers are too picky. It wouldn't bug me one bit if PayPal said "We're not going to get into the middle of not-as-described cases" because they're basically in the insurance adjusting business at that point.
What I'm more interested in is the more black and white issues. How do they react when someone says "I never got it" and I can prove they did.
I'm a little upset I had to have a customer service rep inform me that I should start faxing stuff immediately to an internal fax number, because the canned emails basically just point you to a simple web response form then tell you to "await further notice." PayPal's site should direct you to detailed information on what to do and how to protect yourself.
I sympathize with PayPal at some points because detecting fraud across 70% of internet auctions is a task that few companies have the resources to do. To survive, PayPal had to protect itself first, and its customers second. Maybe that doesn't make them the company that should be managing large amounts of your money, but I understand why these things happen.
posted on March 13, 2002 05:42:12 AM new
read these boards paypal is setup up for people who do not care. its soo easy to say you never got anything and charge it back. you get the goods for free and the seller is f*&^ed . bottom line again this is what happens when u use paypal u find these things out the hard way.
PayPal does not make the final say in quality of goods issues. We are not asking them to be the judge. We are asking them simply to pass on information to the buyers credit card company (the buyer who made the chargeback). The buyer's credit card company makes the final decision.
Quality of goods chargebacks are dealt all the time with credit cards. While it might be hard to judge these transactions, credit card companies do so every single day. The Merchant always gets a chance with a regular credit card merchant account to present their side of the story. It is basically the Merchant is found guilty until they can prove themselves innocent.
However, PayPal does not let you prove yourself innocent with quality of goods issues. All they should do is pass the information sellers send on to the credit card company so they can make an informed decision. If the credit card company decides wrongly against you, thats usually the way it goes (unless you appeal to MC/Visa, which is rarely done). But with PayPal, if the buyer files a dispute, they always win.
This is a huge loophole. Any buyer who is smart enough to scam sellers could buy many things with PayPal, maybe on different credit cards so they don't arouse suspicion with their credit card company, and then charge it all back with quality of goods issues.
posted on March 13, 2002 07:39:50 AM new
And yes, even if it is not a quality of goods issue, you still may lose. While PayPal pretends to have seller protection and sometimes does, they sometimes just don't provide it. There are sites with examples stories similar to these situations, one of them is http://www.ygoodman.com/paypal.html
posted on March 13, 2002 08:05:32 AM new
if a buyer files chargeback based on quality issue,then she must first return the merchandise,she cannot complain and want her money back while sitting on the goods.
and she may be #*!@ out of luck if she returns the goods and the seller said he did not receive it.
buyer would have to obtain signed recipt on returned goods to cover her ass/
posted on March 13, 2002 09:17:55 AM new
This was not an international transaction, just Florida to California. I just hoped to get confirmation that PayPal got what I sent. If they're only going to let you speak to cust. serv. reps, then they should at least keep a record in the system that they can confirm as in, "Yes sir, I'm showing that we received..." instead of "ummm I don't know I'll have someone call you back."
Oh well... I asked Damon if he could confirm the faxes and he just replied "I believe someone had emailed you about it." Sorry, all I've gotten so far are 2 canned messages asking for the tracking number and such.
How about "thanks for sending us the information we requested..."
posted on March 13, 2002 10:13:20 AM new
Actually, stopwhining, many buyers can keep the goods even though they filed a quality chargeback. It is the buyer's credit card company that decides whether or not to tell the buyer to return the goods, or to ask for proof. There have been many cases where they didn't do this. The credit card company doesn't even have to ask for proof, it is their option. The credit card company might rather keep the customer and be less stringint on requirements for chargebacks than risk losing the business of the cardholder. And what if the buyer filed a chargeback because he broke it and returned the item that was broken?
So if they don't ask the buyer to return it, the seller is out of the goods and money. The only one who can do anything about this is PayPal. They can let the seller provide his side of the story, and forward that to the buyer's credit card company. PayPay just won't do this though.
posted on March 13, 2002 12:12:13 PM new
even if the seller goes thru her own merchant account,she is still relying on her merchant account bank to present her case ,the ultimate decision is the customer credit card company.
how can the buyer sits on the item and files a chargeback for the amount ?i dont think her cc company is that biased??
if you have your own merchant account,you can call and takk to someone,with paypal you dont have that luxury.
if she returned a broken item,then it becomes a he said/she said situation.you have to take picture of broken item and show both before and after pictures to her cc company.
if it were broken by carrier,then insurance MAY cover it.
somehow i think this game of person to person buy and sell mania is gradually being played out,just my humble observation.
posted on March 13, 2002 03:13:28 PM new
Here's a little more info about my situation. I've put up the pages that PayPal *should* have in my defense. Damon, if you read this, please see if chargeback has all of these. They should be enough to win a "merchandise not received" case. I've blacked out information about the buyer since I don't know exactly what the rules are about such things.
posted on March 13, 2002 07:12:19 PM new
Stopwhining, you said you rely on the merchant account to present your case to the credit card company, and the credit card company has the final decision. I agree, as this is what I said in my previous post. The problem is PayPal won't present your case to the credit card company. In terms of whether the buyer has to return an item before they chargeback and receive their money back, there is no law that says so. Credit card companies might decide to make you return the item. They might not. It is totally up to the company and sometimes to the person you are speaking with. If the buyer happens to have a credit card company who doesn't ask proof that you returned the item, the seller is out of luck. With PayPal, they always keep the item and the goods, since you have no way to defend yourself.
posted on March 13, 2002 09:24:49 PM new
the reason why paypal does not perform as the bank which processes your merchant account is due to poor customer service,also its policy of not getting involved in certain transactions eg quality issue.
years ago i was taken by some inscrupoulous merchant who has a policy of no cash refund .
my credit card company suggested that i tried to return the item not in person but by mailing,hoping that they will not check the package and just signed for it.
well,these crooks have been doing it for a long time and they just refused the package.
they have a bad reputation of doing so to rip off tourists and local suckers,mostly overseas tourists ,it is not possible for the overseas tourist to return to the states to make return.
anyway,my credit card company ruled in my favor and i get to keep the item and not having to pay for it.
but i believe they lost their argument by not accepting the return.
i dont know if this is the case here,did the seller refuse to accept the return,did the seller have a no return policy??
. bottom line again this is what happens when u use paypal u find these things out the hard way.