posted on February 5, 2001 12:58:45 AM new
For the past year or so that I have been selling on eBay, the vast majority of the time I always state a specific amount for "shipping/handling/insurance" in my auctions. With the recent increase in the USPS insurance rates, I am thinking about dropping "insurance" so that the amount seems more reasonable and offer it as an option to the buyer. I would like to state something to the effect in my auctions that if the buyer doesn't want to pay extra for insurance, I cannot be responsible for lost or damaged goods. That sounds really tacky and harsh!! Any suggestions?
posted on February 5, 2001 01:15:47 AM new
Bidders are not going to read the part about you not being responsible for lost or damaged goods. If you want to make sure that you are covered charge the insurance.
posted on February 5, 2001 01:46:04 AM new
I recently signed up with U-PIC for insurance. I learned about it from the posters here at AW. Thanks people!!!!
posted on February 5, 2001 02:14:12 AM new
Most of the items I sell are small end, under $50.00. In my TOS I state;
"Shipping will be $x.xx. Insurance, if desired will be extra."
I have had a few request and pay for insurance so they must read it. Anything uninsured I still feel responsible for until they receive it, so I self insure under $50.00. Add a quarter to each shipping charge, throw it in a jug on my counter. If needed I use it. I have had to use $7.50 so far.
I feel that on high end items, if they chose not to have insurance then that is their fault. I think I would come up with an email that states very clearly where the responsibily lies.
Example: I understand that since I have chosen not to purchase insurance for XXrrossne item, I am totally responsible for its safe arrival to my destination with no recourse against seller XXrrss.el.
Send them this email and have them reply that they do understand it fully. Just a suggestion, what do I know? I chew my nails until I know each package has arrived safely.
posted on February 5, 2001 05:54:12 AM new
It's not harsh at all, in fact it's commonly done. State it as "Shipping $XX.XX, insurance extra if desired. Buyer assumes all risks of shipping loss and damage on uninsured items." Be sure that your EOA notice includes the same statement, with two shipping quotes: one with insurance and one without. If you check the Help & Discussion Boards over on Ebay, there's a poster over there that claims that the UCC requires the seller to cover all losses unless the buyer has specifically refused insurance by refusing to pay for it. Quite frankly, I think he goes a bit overboard with his interpretation, but it seems to me that giving the buyer a choice puts you in the clear.
posted on February 5, 2001 06:05:26 AM newmisscandle is right, U-PIC is a great alternative to USPS insurance.
I've used U-PIC since last April and I'm quite pleased. Rates are going up to 60 cents per 100 dollars coverage (for domestic shipments) soon. But if you use delivery confirmation on all insured packages, the rate for insurance will remain 40 cents. Be sure to have that written into your policy!
posted on February 5, 2001 07:35:00 AM new
In my opinion, insurance is to protect the seller, not the buyer. I don't give buyers the option--my TOS state "Shipping costs will be actual postage + insurance." I have yet to have anyone ask if they could forego the insurance but if someone did the answer would be "No." If the package arrives damaged what do you say if the buyer says it was due to your faulty wrapping? If the package simply doesn't arrive (a good possibiity--have you checked lately on the # of auctions the USPS is running of undeliverable items) what is your comeback if the buyer says s/he doesn't believe you mailed the item?
Edited because I can't spell today!
[ edited by london4 on Feb 5, 2001 07:37 AM ]
posted on February 5, 2001 08:22:26 AM new"If the package arrives damaged what do you say if the buyer says it was due to your faulty wrapping? If the package simply doesn't arrive (a good possibiity--have you checked lately on the # of auctions the USPS is running of undeliverable items) what is your comeback if the buyer says s/he doesn't believe you mailed the item? "
In the former case, I say "I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The item was carefully wrapped in a manner that would protect it from normal handling in shipping. It's unfortunate that you chose not to insure the item, but you did accept all risk of loss and damage in doing so. This was clearly stated in the TOS of the listing to which you agreed by placing your bid, and in the EOA you received and to which you responded with your instructions to ship without insurance by indicating that you would pay the uninsured shipping amount when given a choice." In the latter case, I send them a scan of the Delivery Confirmation slip and say "The package was shipped on XX/XX/XX, and shows delivery on XX/XX/XX. (Or "...does not show delivery, as of this date.." or "...shows that a notice of attempted delivery was left. The item is waiting at your PO." or whatever comment is appropriate.) Please check with the other members of your household to see if perhaps it arrived and was misplaced. If not, please check with your local PO, as it may have been misplaced there, after being scanned in. It's unfortunate that you chose not to insure the item, but you did accept all risk of loss and damage in doing so. I'll be more than happy to assist you in filing a Lost Mail Claim, when the required 30 days has elapsed."
Sorry, I just don't buy that a seller has to force a buyer to pay for insurance or is obligated to pay it himself if the buyer refuses to do so. We're dealing with adults here, people (or we're supposed to be). Let's give them credit for being able to make a choice and accept the consequences for the choices they make.
posted on February 5, 2001 12:20:55 PM newLittest,
Postage going up is bad for all of us, but you have to do what makes you feel the most comfortable.
Personally, I avoid auctions that state I cannot be responsible for lost or damaged goods. To me that says, "I don't give a damn about you as a person, I don't trust you, if I don't cover my butt you'll try to rip me off, so just give me your money and get the hell away from me and go bother someone else next!"
Now, put yourself in the buyer's shoes. How would you feel if you sent your money, seller shipped the item, but you never received it? Should you be out the money and the item? I don't think you'd like that very much.
Do whatever will allow you to sleep at night, but personally, I think that statement stinks. I'd rather pay mandatory insurance than read a statement like that!
And for the record, I am a seller and you'll never see that statement in any of my auctions. I don't believe in putting my customers down and avoiding responsibility.
posted on February 5, 2001 12:53:28 PM new
BJ, I think that in the majority of cases, if you were out the money, it would be the direct result of a choice YOU made. I've not encountered many sellers that ship without insurance and then refuse to make good on the item, unless the BUYER instructed them to ship without insurance, with full awareness of the potential consequences.
Basically, what you're saying is that buyers are too stupid to make an informed decision and be held responsible, therefore we're all obligated to cover their b*tts for them. I don't buy that. Maybe that's the case in your customer base, but my customers seem to be a pretty responsible, reliable lot, and I give them credit for that. If they want to save that $1.10 insurance charge, that's fine by me, but they can expect to be held responsible for that choice, in the event that something goes awry.
posted on February 5, 2001 01:59:17 PM new
The seller has not completed the transaction until the merchandise is delivered. There is no way to prove you shipped the item if you don't have insurance. Delivery confirmation is of little value because it only confirms delivery/non-delivery. If lost the Post Office bears no responsibility.
As a seller you should always understand that you're the one on the hook until that package is delivered. No disclaimer in the world will release you from that responsibility.
dennis
posted on February 5, 2001 02:37:57 PM new
When I first started I had the "not responsible" line in my TOS, but now I just add insurance automatically.
I sometimes self insure, but for some items I just don't want to afford it.
Good Luck!
posted on February 5, 2001 02:47:26 PM new"The seller has not completed the transaction until the merchandise is delivered. There is no way to prove you shipped the item if you don't have insurance. Delivery confirmation is of little value because it only confirms delivery/non-delivery. If lost the Post Office bears no responsibility. As a seller you should always understand that you're the one on the hook until that package is delivered. No disclaimer in the world will release you from that responsibility.
I beg to differ. A DC receipt constitutes proof of shipment--try getting one validated at your USPS without having it attached to a piece of mail with a matching address. I believe that if the buyer expressly refuses to pay for insurance under stated terms that refusal constitutes acceptance of risk for loss or damage in shipment, the seller is relieved of liability if such occurs. Check the UCC code, but that was the interpretation I was given.
posted on February 5, 2001 02:53:26 PM new
I have never had anyone question or refuse insurance,but if I did I would insure it at my own cost.It would send up a red flag.Why would anyone bid and not value their package for a few cents?Also this would be my first clue that this sale has the potential for a problem with a difficult customer. I did however have some question a 20 cents over charge on shipping,a weight thing on their package.All I did was stick a 5 dollar bill in an envelope with a note that said I didn't mean to cheat her out of 20 cents and I hope this made her happy with a very nice thank you for her business. Hopefully this made her see how petty she was being.At least I got a big laugh about it!
posted on February 5, 2001 03:10:36 PM newpickersangel,
I'm not certain where you're coming from. Nowhere in my post do I imply or state that buyers are stupid. That appears to be your opinion, then, not mine. And what would you know about my customer base anyway? No more than I know about yours.
I feel that sellers who go into business expecting to never experience a loss are being unrealistic at best and selfish for trying to put the responsibility on the customer to make to "choice" as to whether or not to accept the "loss".
Funny thing is that both eBay and the USPS consider it fraud if you pay for goods that are being sent through the mail and don't receive those goods. No mention at all of whether or not the buyer purchases insurance.
So, basically, insurance is a convenience for the seller so that the seller doesn't have to be out-of-pocket. That's not necessarily a bad thing at all. But to make it an "option", then to say, hey, well, you didn't get your package, tough beans, is poor customer relations IMO, and does not necessarily relate to the intelligence or lack thereof of the buyer.
Basically, as a seller, do you want to sound nice and friendly and easy to deal with, or do you want to sound self-centered and hard to get along with?
If you'd rather not be out-of-pocket, automatically charge for insurance. It's that simple.
posted on February 5, 2001 03:24:31 PM new"Funny thing is that both eBay and the USPS consider it fraud if you pay for goods that are being sent through the mail and don't receive those goods. No mention at all of whether or not the buyer purchases insurance.
I don't believe that either entity will find for the buyer in a fraud claim where the seller has proof of shipping. If you're aware of cases where the seller had to pay up, even though he could prove he'd shipped the goods, then please let us know. I still stand my by statement that buyers are capable of making the decision to insure or not, and understanding that they'll be out the money if they choose not to and the item is lost or damaged in shipment. Not everyone feels that all items are worth insuring, and some would rather risk losing a small ticket item than paying the insurance fee. I don't feel it's my place to dictate that they insure every purchase or bear the cost to be sure they do. I guess the first time I encounter a buyer that tries to bully me into a refund after refusing insurance, I'll rethink my position (if s/he's somehow successful ), but for now, I'll keep on doing things the way I have. No complaints (or loss or damage to uninsured packages) so far!
always pickersangel everywhere http://homepage.netspaceonline.com/~twobar/pickers.htm
[ edited by pickersangel on Feb 5, 2001 03:28 PM ]
posted on February 5, 2001 04:06:23 PM new
No, I'm not aware of any cases where the seller can prove shipping and the buyer has won anyway.
I'm not naive and I know that fraud runs rampant. All anyone has to do is read these boards to find that out.
For the record, I sell mostly small-ticket items, mainly books. Some go for quite a bit of money, however, primarily older ones. The modern books are small ticket.
As a rule, I don't do delivery confirmation on small ticket items and I don't require buyers to purchase insurance or "they're out of luck if it's lost or damaged."
I have insured some more expensive books at my own cost because I wouldn't want to be out of pocket. And I always insure in the rare instances that the customer requires it.
But, overall, I'm not worried about the rare buyer who might try to pull something on me. I won't try to "force" customers into "choosing" insurance or "they're out of luck." If I was worried about being out of pocket, insurance would be mandatory and that would be that. No options. Especially if I sold items in categories where fraud does run rampant.
posted on February 5, 2001 04:17:16 PM newI don't believe that either entity will find for the buyer in a fraud claim where the seller has proof of shipping.
There are two "kinds" of fraud.
Criminal fraud requires intent to defraud. This happens when buyer takes seller's money, but doesn't send anything. Indeed, most law enforcement agencies would take proof of shipment as a reason not to file criminal fraud charges.
That leaves civil responsibility. If seller becomes aware that buyer did not receive the stuff, and refuses to make it right, seller is guilty of fraud. Civil fraud. Whether or not seller is guilty of fraud, seller is responsible to deliver the stuff, and if buyer doesn't receive delivery, seller remains responsible.
Seller can legally avoid shipment responsibility without buyer's explicit agreement, by not shipping at all. "FOB".
Seller can also obtain buyer's agreement to accept shipment responsibility, but, and it's a really big but, this obtaining doesn't happen without buyer's participation. A TOS, or a end of auction ntofication, or whatever doesn't do anything at all. Buyer can simply say, I didn't ever agree to that. A request for buyer to send email agreeing to such responsibility as part of the contract would transfer such responsibility if buyer did as requested.
posted on February 5, 2001 04:27:45 PM new
<<There is no way to prove you shipped the item even with insurance. The package could just as easily have a pebble in it as a diamond.
And just for argument's sake- how exactly does a buyer prove that they did not receive the item? >>
Simple question is where did you purchase the diamond? A thief may have proof that he bought a diamond and he may be able to cheat the system once or twice but a thief would be caught.
All a buyer has to say is that he didn't receive the item. Hard to prove a negative.
-------
<<I beg to differ. A DC receipt constitutes proof of shipment--try getting one validated at your USPS without having it attached to a piece of mail with a matching address. I believe that if the buyer expressly refuses to pay for insurance under stated terms that refusal constitutes acceptance of risk for loss or damage in shipment, the seller is relieved of liability if such occurs. Check the UCC code, but that was the interpretation I was given. >>
DC proves the item was shipped. The buyer wants the goods or a refund. Proof of shipping doesn't insure the contents. I know it's unfair to the seller but it's not a done deal until the customer gets the merchandise. Sorry, but shipping uninsured is strictly at the sellers peril.
Just say no to not insuring.
dennis
posted on February 5, 2001 05:18:48 PM new
Without getting into the legalities of who is responsible or who pays what if a package is "lost", I feel insuring every shipment is up to the seller since he is ultimately responsible. My opinion is that it comes down to taking a slight risk depending on how many packages you ship, the cost of the goods and if the item is easily replaceable if lost.
Considering these factors I do not bother with insurance on items less than $50.00 that I have in stock. If I lose 2 packages out of every 100 (not likely) and have to replace the item I basically have not lost anything, even if both packages were $50.00 items. Besides, I like taking chances, so there!
posted on February 5, 2001 05:21:03 PM newo you insure all items (including the $10.00 ones) or just those over a certain amount?
Just ones over a certain amount.
"$5 for Priority shipping" (small item expected to be under $100 or so)
"$8 for insured Priority shipping" (more valuable item). I do buy USPS insurance in this case.
In those cases where I underestimate what it will sell for, I'm more than happy to buy the insurance and take a loss on the shipping. Well, it happened once.
