posted on February 22, 2001 02:21:30 AM
A few months ago I stopped accepting Paypal and switched instead to Yahoo! PayDirect. The problem with PayDirect is that it does not automatically provide the user's mailing address. So I spent hours each week chasing down bidders, searching my emails, trying to find out who paid for what. Last week, I dropped Yahoo! PayDirect as a payment option.
I've got to tell you, it feels great! I've got that familiar huge stack of envelopes on my desk. The money's the same, but seeing a mountain of checks and money orders, for me, is a real motivator. Processing payments goes much quicker. And I don't have to keep checking whether the payments were properly transferred to my bank account, or worry about the newest Paypal TOA (terms of abuse).
Anybody else stopped using Paypal/PayDirect, etc.? Care to share your results? (BTW, my auctions were affected very minimally. Only one unhappy customer out of hundreds of transactions.)
posted on February 22, 2001 04:01:02 AM
I stopped using Paypal after a problem with my account.I have not experienced any negative setbacks because of it. I have put in my TOS that I will not hold checks under $50 and I actually think that gets me more sales. I now only use Bidpay, money orders, checks or cash and couldn't be happier.
posted on February 22, 2001 04:45:52 AM
I stopped using PayPal last October when they stopped mailing checks to PO Boxes. I haven't noticed any difference in my sales at all. I still have people who ask "do you take PayPal" even though it is not mentioned as an option in my auctions or my EOA emails (do they not read?). Also a few (especially newbies) will go ahead and send me PayPal money which causes a problem because then I have to email them saying no PayPal. A few have started using BidPay and I just had my first buyer pay with Energy Flow this week so I'm waiting to see how that works out as Energy Flow will let people pay with the money already in their PayPal accounts plus they take more credit cards than the others. I accept checks, money orders, cashier's checks, BidPay and Energy Flow. Good idea about not holding checks under $50.00 - I may consider that as right now I hold all items for 10 business days after check is deposited. I do have in my EOA emails that there is a charge for a bounced check, so hopefully that will ward off the chronic abusers. I've only had one bounced check since I started Ebay, which I never collected on. Collecting would have cost me more than the check was so I just sold to the runner-up bidder and moved on. Yes, there is life after PayPal!!
posted on February 22, 2001 08:22:13 AM
If you want to accept credit cards more safely (nothing protects you against charge backs but at least you should be protected against fraud) try Western Union's Moneyzap which is currently free. If you are afraid of charge backs, try Achex which works bank account to bank account. There are still a lot of folks out there, myself included, who won't bid unless *some* form of electronic payment is accepted. Unless you have some really unique item, I can usually find another seller with the same thing who will make it easy for me to pay.
posted on February 22, 2001 08:30:21 AM
Yes, there is life both before and after Paypal and all these other payment gadgets. I have sold over 800 items on ebay, only accept checks and money orders and am pleased with all of it. I never have had a hot check even though I mail the sold items the next day after receiving the check. I like for things to be simpler, not more complicated.
I have to agree, but I think it depends on what you sell? I've never offered PayPal, and a couple months back quit offering Billpoint on my higher end items. So far, no lack of bids, and the ending prices have been just as good or better than they were when I was offering Billpoint.
Twinsoft
Glad to hear that your items are doing just as well as they did without PayPal.
posted on February 22, 2001 09:09:51 AMyisgood: Hi! Hey, I decided to register with Achex per your recommendation. In the process of doing so it came to my attention that they require my social security number, which I DO NOT give out online. What's your take on this? Is there another similar, reliable service that does not ask for ss#?
posted on February 22, 2001 09:12:46 AM
Achex is a bank account to bank account service. The security requirements are higher, which explains their request for an SS#. Moneyzap also allows you to fund your account from your bank account. I'm pretty sure Citibank's C2it does too.
posted on February 22, 2001 09:21:23 AM
Thanks, yisgood! Yeah, I have MoneyZap. I wish that one would become more prevelant as I think that it is a key service. I really liked the idea of the Achex service, but don't know if I can get comfortable giving out my ss#...Gonna spend some time thinking about that! (yeah, I'm paranoid). I got something in the mail from the citibank service but haven't checked that out yet.
posted on February 22, 2001 09:37:38 AM
>>I have MoneyZap. I wish that one would become more prevelant <<
It won't happen by wishing. It's up to us sellers to get the word out.
I used to get 8-10 Paypal payments a week. Now I get about 8 Moneyzap and 1 or 2 Achex (most folks still like to use credit cards). I get about 1 PP payment every 2-3 weeks (non credit card only). I get these results with the following text in my auctions:
"Pay by credit card for free with Western Union's Moneyzap or send a free electronic check with Achex. Paypal non credit card payments only."
In my EOA letters:
Pay by credit card for free with Western Union's Moneyzap. No need to send your CC info to every seller you deal with. No worries about this info sitting on unprotected computers across the country. Your info will go directly to Western Union's protected server. They will send me payment without revealling any of your info. It takes 2 days to process the payment because Western Union will contact you and verify your identity. For safe credit card payment, this is the service I recommend.
You can also send an immediate electronic check with Achex. This sends payment directly from your bank account to mine using the secure ACH system shared by banks across the country. Again, I do not see your info, not even your bank account number.
You can also send a check or money order but with the availability of Achex and Moneyzap, why go buy a money order, mail it, wait and worry when you pay securely, quickly and at no charge right from your PC?
As for Paypal, I don't recommend them because they are very unsafe for both buyers and sellers and charge a fee on top of that. For more info, see
http://www.ygoodman.com/payments.html. If you insist on using paypal, you must pay from existing balance or bank account (not credit card).
posted on February 22, 2001 10:33:54 AM
Just checked out Money Zap and they say that after the promotional period there will be a small fee. I can't find that amount of the fee anywhere on their site. Does anyone have any inside inf on this fee. They look like a great service.
posted on February 22, 2001 12:17:00 PM
Hi yisgood,
I am curious about this statement---
If you want to accept credit cards more safely (nothing protects you against charge backs but at least you should be protected against fraud)
Charge backs come about as the result of:
1. Fraud
2. Buyer claims of not receiving merchandise
3. Buyer claims merchandise not as described
(not covered under our Buyer Protection Program).
I would like a further clarification on this. Our Seller Protection program protects sellers from credit card/charge backs if they have followed the details of the program. Buyers are also given the ability to file a claim that is researched (all details are on the site) and the seller is given the ability to refute the claim.
With a traditional merchant account, the charge back is removed regardless of why it was filed.We are taking on the liability risk if the seller follows certain guidelines.
posted on February 22, 2001 12:27:08 PM
I did state that sales were affected "very minimally." Actually, that was more of an escape clause. Honestly, I don't see any difference in sales. I do notice that I have a lot more time now that I don't have to deal with alternate payment methods.
The one response I did receive was for an auction which stated Paypal accepted. When I updated my listings, that one slipped through the cracks. The buyer was unhappy, and stated she bid on the auction only because I offered Paypal.
Like posters above, I've had people send me Paypal payments before they received my invoice. A few have said "too bad you don't accept Paypal" but no one seems to mind too much. I realize that Paypal, PayDirect, etc., are a convenience to bidders, but it's not worth all the extra work to offer this benefit.
On a related note, I got a personal letter in the mail yesterday from Paypal. It was from Curt Parton (Paypal CS Manager) and CC:'ed to the BBB. It was a written response to my complaint to the Better Business Bureau. Basically, Paypal accused me of cheating, lying, and they ignored my complaint entirely.
Back in November, Paypal tried to grab my funds ($300) over a $17 dispute. The other party refused to fill out an insurance claim, and demanded a full refund within 24 hours. The other party violated Paypal's TOS, yet Paypal ignored their own TOS and attempted to lock up my account.
It's clear that despite their many offenses and the thousands of complaints sent to the Better Business Bureau, Paypal is unrepentant, and is attempting to blame customers for Paypal's own mistakes. Anyone who's read the threads from the start knows of Paypal's repeated lying and misrepresentation, starting with "always free," through "no one will be forced to upgrade" and on and on. Look at Paypal's TOS and you will see that you can forfeit all your funds if you initiate a chargeback. That's not a company I will refer customers to. Deal with them at your own risk.
posted on February 22, 2001 12:31:05 PM
>>Just checked out Money Zap and they say that after the promotional period there will be a small fee. I can't find that amount of the fee anywhere on their site. Does anyone have any inside inf on this fee. They look like a great service.<<
As I keep trying to explain to folks, at some point ALL of the services will charge. They have to. So you can continue to choose the cheapest one and get all the problems associated with that or you can choose the best one. Just remember that you have to save a whole lot of pennies to recover from that one fraudulent payment the cheap service will take back from you due to their incompetence in preventing the fraud. Moneyzap contacts every buyer when the first payment is made to verify identity. They claim that they have never sent on a fraudulent payment to the seller. I have yet to see one complaint about them.
>>Nobody was going to admit that they lost sales as a direct result of dropping PayPal. <<
There are so many variables that it's hard to tell. How many folks will take the time to email a seller "I would have bid on your auction if you accepted Paypal"? There is one seller on ebay that accepts money orders only. He was selling something I wanted and I noticed that he has three of them listed every day. Every day his listings end without bids. I emailed him to say that I suggest he accept *some* form of electronic payment. I am sure that I am not the only one who won't bid if I have to go out and buy a money order and mail it.
But my experience shows that if you accept *some* form of electronic payment, folks don't care if it's paypal or billpoint or moneyzap or achex. As long as it's free to them, they'll use it. I have gone from 8-10 paypal payments a week to 1 every three weeks. I get a lot of repeat business and my customers have had no problem switching from PP to MZ or Achex. It was complaints by some of my customers and sellers that led me to unrecommend PP in the first place.
>>I am curious about this statement---
If you want to accept credit cards more safely (nothing protects you against charge backs but at least you should be protected against fraud)
Charge backs come about as the result of:
1. Fraud
2. Buyer claims of not receiving merchandise
3. Buyer claims merchandise not as described
(not covered under our Buyer Protection Program).<<
I was differentiating between a charge back because the buyer claims not to have received merchandise and having payments reversed because Paypal wakes up several months later and claims that the buyer used a stolen credit card.
For all of PP's efforts in this area (and I do admit they are making efforts) there are still too many complaints of reversed payments due to fraud. Yesterday someone even claimed that a non credit card payment was reversed. I know that PP is the biggest service and has volume issues to contend with. But my recommendations are made on three key factors: protection against fraud, protection against wrongful charge backs and protection against crooked sellers. In these categories, PP is still lacking when compared to the other services.
>>Our Seller Protection program protects sellers from credit card/charge backs if they have followed the details of the program.<<
As I have proved time and time again, your seller protection program is a joke. It only works if the buyer goes through PP. If the buyer goes straight to the CC and charges it back, the seller either loses that payment or has his entire account restricted without any notice or opportunity to respond. And PP doesnt even tell the seller which buyer complained. So PP's "protection" is for PP first and for scamming buyers second. The innocent seller has none. There are a number of posts regarding this problem, one right in this thread. I have posted situations that happened to honest folks I know personally with verified business accounts who have had this problem and asked you to explain it. All you did was say "there are things I can't get into." That seems to be the excuse every time there is no good answer.
posted on February 22, 2001 12:40:05 PM
Hi twinsoft,
Thanks for the post. I have just read through your post and I did have a concern about what you had mentioned on charge backs (complete forfeiture). I checked the site and I see no mention of this and this is what I have found---I would appreciate it if you can show me where this is. I would like to have it corrected if it is on the site as you stated.
Receipt of Payments; Risk of Reversal of Transactions; Collection of Funds you owe PayPal. When you receive a payment through the Service, unless you follow the steps necessary to qualify for our Seller Protection Policy described in Part IV of this User Agreement, you are not protected against a subsequent reversal of the transaction. In the event that the sender’s transaction is reversed for any reason and you do not qualify for the Seller Protection Policy for that transaction, you will owe PayPal for the amount of the reversed transaction plus any fees imposed on PayPal as a result of the reversal. Examples of such a reversal include, but are not limited to, a credit card charge-back by the sender of the payment, and a reversal of the transaction because the sender of the payment was using a stolen credit card or unauthorized checking account. PayPal will seek to recover the funds from you by debiting your PayPal balance and, if there are not sufficient funds in your PayPal balance, PayPal reserves the right to collect your debt to PayPal by any other legal means. You authorize PayPal to charge your credit card or debit card in the amount of any debt to PayPal. You authorize PayPal to obtain a credit report on you in the event that you incur a debt to PayPal.
posted on February 22, 2001 12:52:11 PM
I've been selling on eBay 3+ years, Powerseller w/over 2400 feedback & sell $5,000 - $7,000 a month. I also quit using PayPal a few months ago. My biggest fear was that it would affect my sales. I do use Billpoint, so my buyers have the option of credit card payments, but also accept money orders & checks (no holding). I don't use Billpoint for anything over $100 - only Money Orders. I've only had a few people ask why I no longer used PayPal. And honestly, there is NO decline in my sales what so ever!!
posted on February 22, 2001 12:55:11 PM
I was in the process of closing my Paypal account when this problem happened with the customer. As I stated above, the customer refused to fill out an insurance claim, and threatened to file a fraud complaint if I didn't Paypal him a refund within 24 hours. Then I got the notice from Paypal. At that point I cashed out my Paypal account (which I was ready to do anyway) and closed it.
However, payments kept coming in, sent to my email address. After a while, I opened another account to claim those payments. All that time, I was going back and forth with Paypal support. I told Paypal I would be happy to refund to the customer, but first I must have a signed insurance claim. They ignored my complaints, and kept accusing me of cheating. I thought this fact was very telling of Paypal's practices: I received an email from Paypal saying they would use "any means necessary" to recover their $17. Then, three minutes later, I received a separate email from Paypal stating someone had paid me with a stolen credit card, and that they were grabbing the funds from my re-opened account. (Right, there were about 10 payments there, and one was from a stolen credit card. Uh huh, sure.) Too little, too late. I had already removed all the money.
No wonder Paypal is mad. They've sure wasted a lot of their time (and mine) over a $17 dispute that could have been easily settled, if they had only honored their own TOS. Instead they got a complaint to the BBB. Paypal can go suck eggs.
>>I checked the site and I see no mention of this and this is what I have found---I would appreciate it if you can show me where this is.<<
Everyone knows that Paypal changes their terms on a daily basis. And what's more, they don't honor the terms as stated. What hogwash.
Take a good look at Section 3 of your TOU, which states,
"PayPal.com, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to restrict an account for any one of the events listed below. If your account is restricted, you may forfeit all funds currently in your balance."
The TOU then goes on to describe any number of reasons an account may be restricted, including "unusual activity."
The long and short of it is, Paypal has written themselves a clause which allows them to plunder any users account for any reason.
And yes, I notice you REMOVED the clause about chargebacks. My opinion is UNCHANGED.
posted on February 22, 2001 01:14:46 PM
PPD, I don't know what your terms are today. This happened last November. At that time, your terms clearly stated that the user must make several documented attempts to work out the situation with the other party. The terms also stated that the user must go through insurance before filing a fraud claim. Thos were the terms you ignored, and instead attempted to grab my money at the first sign of trouble.
Of course, it goes without saying that all during the several months I was engaged with PP support, you were accepting payments in my name and telling my customers I had received their money, even though I had no access to the funds. And even though I told Paypal not to accept any payments in my name.
posted on February 22, 2001 01:16:03 PM
Hi twinsoft,
Thanks for the response. Comments in parentheses--
Everyone knows that Paypal changes their terms on a daily basis. And what's more, they don't honor the terms as stated. What hogwash.
(The user can see see the last time the terms of use were modified when they log in to their account. The last change, if I remember correctly, was Jan.16th. This was placed on the site, as well as the recommendation for a policy change link, by feedback from users in this forum that stated they did not get emails. Users that are opt-in do get email notification on changes and we are looking at some additional tools to increase communication. However, if a user does not opt-in and does not click on the Policy Change link, there is no way to advise them of a policy change)
Take a good look at Section 3 of your TOU, which states,
"PayPal.com, at its sole discretion, reserves the right to restrict an account for any one of the events listed below. If your account is restricted, you may forfeit all funds currently in your balance."
(I have never heard of a forfeiture of funds in an account that was not fraudin nature. As an FYI, the reasons an account can be restricted were placed on the web site to increase the communication to our users as a result of feedback from this and other forums. It also states user responsibility for the service).
The TOU then goes on to describe any number of reasons an account may be restricted, including "unusual activity."
(Unusual activity should be viewed as fraud)
The long and short of it is, Paypal has written themselves a clause which allows them to plunder any users account for any reason.
And yes, I notice you REMOVED the clause about chargebacks.
(Not sure if I am following this comment).
posted on February 22, 2001 01:27:38 PM
Hi yisgood,
You still havent answered why we have all seen numerous examples of PP reversing payments and freezing accounts without ever contacting the seller. Look at the other paypal thread right in this section (in which you have already posted) where Twinsoft says that this happened with BOTH paypal accounts. Last week I sent you several examples and all you responded was "there are things I cant reveal publicly" intimating that it was the seller's fault. However, I personally know sellers who are very honest and had exactly this happen to them.
(Account restrictions are extremely rare at this point in time and the typical response to a problem is to isolate the transaction in question with a pending reversal--(No, I can't comment on individual account history as to why an account was restricted or why a payment was removed for customer proprietary reasons--I can only stick to what policy and procedure is)
When a reversal is placed, the user is sent an email advising of the issue and what information is needed to prevent a complete reversal (such as shipping documentation,etc)--)
8) if the PP CS person has bothered to read PP's TOD (TOS of the Day) because many of them haven't.
>>(Terms of use changes are sent via email to opt-in users and the policy change link is on the web site after a user logs in with a last modified date)<<
I wasnt saying if the USER read the TOS, I was saying that very often the PP CS person hasn't read the TOS. I know a seller who sent PP a USPS delivery confirmation, trackable on line and was told it wasn't good proof because there was no signature. But DC is a specific example given in your TOS as acceptable proof!
(Yes, delivery confirmation that is trackable on-line is acceptable proof of shipping. I would need to have the user information in order to assist and correct if an error was made. However, one of the other criteria might have been missed (such as not accepting payments from multiple email addresses for the transaction. DC that is trackable on-line is proof, but it is not the only thing that is used to protect the seller---the guidelines need to be followed exactly)
I can only handle items that come to my particular attention. The BBB issue is being handled by someone sitting two desks from me and they get the same report about what is impacting our users and why. We are working closely with the BBB to improve the rating and we are also working to improve customer response time. Most issues are handled within 24-48 hours, but more complex issues (buyer/seller claims or fraud cases) take longer to research and resolve.
posted on February 22, 2001 02:34:38 PM
1) Always free to buyers and sellers
2) No one will be forced to upgrade
3) Paypal will never remove money from your account without your permission (see "reversal" of funds)
.
.
.
And now we can add a new one to the list:
"I have never heard of a forfeiture of funds in an account that was not fraudin nature."
PPD, back when you were introducing business accounts, and promoting the company line, "no one will be forced to upgrade," I asked you point blank if Paypal planned on limiting personal accounts. You never answered that question, but the answer did come a week later, when Paypal limited "personal" accounts to $500 every six months.
I don't know what you knew, and when you knew it, but obviously while you were claiming "no forced upgrades," Paypal had every intention of forcing sellers to upgrade to business accounts. They even went so far as to accuse sellers, who joined when you claimed "always free," of cheating.
You know, back when Paypal started, if they had just charged their 2% without any referral bonuses, I would have joined and been happy to pay. But I refuse to deal with a company that again and again lies to customers.
And now you're saying, "we would never do that" with regard to forfeitures. Jeez, where have I heard that before?
posted on February 22, 2001 09:23:25 PM
I don't always agree with paypal, but it sure does make payments faster. Many of my customers pay via paypal. I will accept whatever my customer wants to pay me with.
-Trey
***********************************
"If your mind can concieve it, and you believe it, then you probably can achieve it."
posted on February 23, 2001 06:11:14 AM
<<Everyone knows that Paypal changes their terms on a daily basis. And what's more, they don't honor the terms as stated. What hogwash.
(The user can see see the last time the terms of use were modified when they log in to their account. The last change, if I remember correctly, was Jan.16th. This was placed on the site, as well as the recommendation for a policy change link, by feedback from users in this forum that stated they did not get emails. Users that are opt-in do get email notification on changes and we are looking at some additional tools to increase communication. However, if a user does not opt-in and does not click on the Policy Change link, there is no way to advise them of a policy change)>>
It's odd that I never receive a notice of policy change but I was spammed a long explanation of how to get some poor soul to sign up at payola.
dennis
