posted on February 26, 2001 08:06:14 PM new
I'll try to the story without giving identifiable details, I hope I can relate the facts to give you the jist of the situation.
I recently bought an item that was very unusual for the area I collect. It was either a curiosity worth little or perhaps a rarity worth $$$(?) I took a chance and bought it, then took it to a professional for evaluation. It turns out that there was a logical explanation for it's appearance and was worth about 10 cents (I bought for about $40) That's fine, I took a chance and lost, you win some and you lose some. I was disappointed but not angry. The seller had expressed uncertainity in the auction discription and I do NOT feel I was mislead.
Since the seller had mentioned to me to let her know if I found out anything about it to let her know, I emailed her to give the details. I had a good laugh and she said she was disappointed and felt kind of bad. Fair enough, I chalked it up to experience.
Now the problem. She has since offered up for auction (twice!) another of these items. My jaw bounced off my desk! She knows full well that the reason for the item being "unique" and that it is virtually worthless. The first time the bidding didn't reach the reserve, but she re-listed it and today it was bought with BIN for more than I paid for it (twice as much actually). I should add, when I bought it she gave the impression this was the only one she had. Now apparently there are two more.
I wish I could give a little more detail, but it would too easy to look up.
I'm inclined to email the buyer to let him/her know the truth, but that would be auction interference. And while she does cover her a$$ in the description, it is VERY misleading. She does a great job of pumping up the chance that it is a rarity, but doesn't quite go all the way. She even bragged about getting a nice price for the previous one (mine!).
I want to reiterate I am not mad at her for my purchase, I still feel she was in the dark as much as I was at the time. I have no ill feelings about the transaction nor do I seek retribution. But now she knows better!
Anyway, should I just mind my own business and Caveat Emptor?
posted on February 26, 2001 08:09:42 PM new
She sucks. I would expose her. Then again, maybe she is just stupid and does not feel like editing the auction.
One Step...
Two Steps...
posted on February 26, 2001 08:10:07 PM new
I would not say anything...it could come back on you as auction interference. Did you already leave feedback? Maybe you could mention the worth in the feedback. Then again, something worth a dime to one person may be worth $1,000 to another for reasons only they know!
posted on February 26, 2001 08:16:41 PM new
I left positive FB for her because she held up her end of the bargain and I didn't feel ripped off. But she has not left FB for me so if she finds out I contacted the buyer...
posted on February 26, 2001 08:23:49 PM new
I'd call the seller's actions unethical as you've describe the situation. Unfortunately there is nothing you can do without crossing the lines if you contact other buyers.
I'm not sure if SafeHarbor would care, as long as it sells and isn't illegal eBay makes their money. I think SafeHarbor should care. You could contact them and see if there is any action they'll take.
I don't expect SafeHarbor to take action, but miracles do happen. My wife came back from a store with change once (I offer that as proof of miracles happening).
posted on February 26, 2001 08:26:16 PM new
I know of alot of auctions running for bad videos,I know I bought some them,and so have alot of people who left tons of negative feed back for these sellers.The sellers know what they are selling is pure trash yet they sell this crap every week.Really makes E-Bay appealing doesn't it.
posted on February 26, 2001 08:27:28 PM new
Other than the word of your "expert," is there a link to an online source you could give the seller in order to give a little more credence to your claim? It could be she discounts this person's undocumented opinion.
I don't mean this disrespectfully, but I've received more than one email from so-called experts that claim one thing or another that later turn out to be blatantly false.
posted on February 26, 2001 08:34:28 PM new
Hi Nancy,
If I could give more details without giving it away I could answer your question more fully. All I can say is she could very easily get it checked herself and I am 100% confident that her "expert" would reach the same conclusion. It's that obvious once you know the answer.
posted on February 26, 2001 08:44:20 PM new
Well, unfortunately, ebay says contacting the bidders is auction interference. Your only legal options are either to contact her directly or ignore it.
posted on February 26, 2001 10:24:16 PM new
Or, how about the route some folks here reported taking regarding the misleading auctions for the empty Playstation boxes?
Put the one that you won up for auction, and in your description make it very clear that it is practically worthless. Bidders then may be likely to come across your item as well as hers, and can get the straight scoop from your auction. ("Don't confuse this with the rare and valuable glass original -- it's just a commonly-available knockoff, made a few years ago out of plastic." )
Of course that involves you spending a little $ just to warn people. If you feel strongly about it perhaps it would be worth it to you.
Cheeses me off! You might report it to Safeharbor, but I agree with uaru, they probably will do nothing.
I'd be tempted to at least email her about her dishonesty -- "Uh, excuse me, but now that you know this is worthless, why are you trying to trick people into thinking it's rare?" Not necessarily recommending this.
-- -- --
"I still feel she was in the dark as much as I was at the time." - firstover
Not to be fanning the flame here, but you say she led you to believe the one you bought was the only one she had, and her recent auctions are just as cryptic and misleading about the item's rarity. I'd be a little dubious about her sale to you being an "innocent" mistake.
[ edited by triplesnack on Feb 26, 2001 10:40 PM ]
I think it is NOT auction interference if the auction has ended. You can check with ebay policy but I think you cannot interfere while the auction is still alive. After the auction has closed, all bets are off.
If the bidder has a ebay id and not using his/her email address, see if you can find an item they had previously bid on and been successful. Look for one where the seller has an email address available. Explain the situation to that seller and see if the seller is willing to contact the buyer for you and have the buyer email you.
Also, if you are 100% sure of your expert and there is no doubt that your item is exactly the same as the second one sold, you can report the seller for postal fraud. There is an online site for reporting such fraud. Sadly, ebay will ignore all fraud reports.
Since the seller now knows 100% what she is selling is not real, any attempt to disclose otherwise in an auction would be misleading and fradulent.
By the way, how do you know you were the first buyer? You could have been second or third, etc... and previous buyers had informed the seller of the problem. She might be asking you about your research hoping your expert confirms it to be good (in case you have a bad expert) so she can pump up her auctions even more.
If seller is left uncheck, it just creates a bad environment on ebay.
posted on February 26, 2001 10:49:08 PM new
If its that unethical, you can check her feedback, and click on whats been recently bought,if its the same thing, and what people paid...... though I don't think there is much you can do. If the description described it right etc.... you bid... you have it, um, I don't know what the deal is....unless you were in contact with seller during the auction, asking her more about it, and after telling her you were having it appraised, and she was interested...I just don't know. From your first post, I am now getting the picture of what this is.... something obviously mass produced... you said she has 2 more, then she probably has more than 2, or more than 20. But I am not sure what you or ebay can do, or postal fraud, if people are bidding of free will, and the description of the item is correct? [email protected]
posted on February 26, 2001 10:57:25 PM new
I'm a little confused as to why we can't discuss exactly what collectable item this would be? It would really be an educational service to many...why not warn people so they know not to fall for the same scam either on Ebay or in the real world.
Reproductions, fakes etc...these are always being written about. I can see not disclosing actual bidder ids or dates but why would'nt it be okay to say I bought a fake Hull Vase or a repro McCoy Pig Cookie jar.
posted on February 26, 2001 10:58:03 PM new
"Hey! When that woman almost got hit by that bus, why'd you yell Look out?? Didn't you see that sign that says Quiet, Hospital Zone?? She should know to look both ways before she steps out into the street anyway! Why don't you mind your own business??"
[Edited to tweak my analogy - excuse me!]
[ edited by triplesnack on Feb 26, 2001 11:01 PM ]
posted on February 26, 2001 11:05:46 PM new
laum1-how could it be postal fraud, IF, the description is correct.... such as; this is a piece of pottery, color is blue, measures xx xx. Beautiful piece.
shoot I don't know! LOL.
And then people bid, because they like what they see and read about it, maybe they cannot get that item in their part of the country, even if its not a Hull, Roseville, etc.... a piece that they like.
I still don't get the unethical part, UNLESS, the description said this is a Hull, Rookwood,Roseville whatever piece....... ?
posted on February 26, 2001 11:45:30 PM new
Quite easy for postal fraud.
For example, let us say I take a piece of cheap medal and gold-plate it. Now I know 100% it is not solid gold. However, if I represent this medal in my auction as "I am not sure if it is solid gold and that most likely it is not and sold as is", I am still doing a fraudlent act since I know 100% it is not a true statement. I am misleading bidders in the hope someone will take a chance it is solid gold.
If the seller was inform that without a doubt what she is selling is not genuine or being misrepresented in her auction description, than it is fraud to sell another one and claim no knowledge.
What puzzles me is this thread's first post. If the items are unique, than the first item and the second item cannot be 100% identical. Therefore, how does one know all of them are fakes or being misrepresented.
If the items are not unique, than the seller has commited another respresentation in her auction description.
posted on February 27, 2001 03:08:51 AM new
laum1- If you collect a certain type of item and these items are very hard to find, to you that specific item could be considered unique (by you), even though there may be a number of them available.
I was notified (as the bidder) about an incorrect description in an auction. This person deemed himself the authority in this specific field and was emailing both sellers and bidders of these auctions.
I considered it auction interference and notified safe harbour. They did finally warn him but it has not stopped him yet.
If the sale was done with BIN, then the auction is over, is it still interference?
posted on February 27, 2001 06:42:40 AM new
What mzalez said.
"One man's junk is another man's treasure." Just because one person thinks it's worth a dime, who knows what the next one may value it it.
When I first started selling on Ebay 2 years ago, I sold a handmade dollhouse doll (I made myself). The buyer emailed me during the auction, "This looks exactly like a doll I was playing with when I was a girl. Could it be the same one?" I said, "I am happy you like this item, but I just made this myself, from a porcelain miniature doll kit. I didn't even have a pattern on the clothing, just made it up, out of my head. So while I'm glad this doll reminds you of your childhood, there is no way this is the doll you used to play with." Buyer emails back (probably from the nuthouse), "I still think it's the doll I played with." huh? The auction ended, and I would have been thrilled to get $10.... the bids ended at $76!!!! I quit arguing with her and cashed the money order.... I tried!!!
[ edited by ksterni on Feb 27, 2001 06:43 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 06:42:42 AM new
If you really want to do something about this, why don't you invite the seller here and let's all discuss it with both sides represented?
posted on February 27, 2001 06:47:15 AM new
Using this logic, we could extend this to more than one-half the auctions on Ebay!!!
Why don't I just email the people bidding on the Roller Coaster Tycoon 2pk Expansion Pack, ask them why they are paying $30 for it (plus shipping), when you can get it at Walmart for $25??? Is it unethical to receive $5 more? What about jogging strollers selling on Ebay for $75, $100, when you can get them on the internet elsewhere for $60, same model?? Where would you start drawing lines?
posted on February 27, 2001 07:07:30 AM newfirstover
You did the right thing in sharing this info with the seller. Now it's up to that seller as to how they will use that information. Remember, that is only one piece of information & one opinion. One opinion may not be the right opinion.
When I was in high school, the chorus teacher's opinion was that my voice stunk. It dashed my dreams of being a singer. I believed him for 20 years, and now I lead singing weekly in church. Don't let your life be ruled by a single opinion.
posted on February 27, 2001 08:16:10 AM new
rarrifle
I know in the past that it is only acceptable to contact bidders AFTER the auction has ended. ebay absolutely forbids any contact while the auction is proceeding.
As I do not practice warning bidders about fakes goods on ebay - I am not sure what the current ebay policy is on this matter. Especially, in light of the recent change to not being able to request emails of bidders.
However, if I was 100% sure that the item is being misrepresent by the seller in a current auction, I would probably do something.
Also, I know in the past, there would be attempts to get contact info on bidders to see if they are real or if they are shills. I guess one can view this as being auction interence since one is trying to contact a bidder while auction is going on. This practice cannot take place anymore under the new email system.
Problem with sale of fakes on ebay is that it will eventually hurt all sellers of those items. If a buyer gets burn, may never make another similar purchase on ebay. Also, if ebay gets a reputation of having mostly fake goods in certain categories, sooner or later, it will be difficult to sell in that category.
Clearly, I am in the minority opinion that the seller has done a fraudlent act.
[ edited by laum1 on Feb 27, 2001 08:16 AM ]
[ edited by laum1 on Feb 27, 2001 08:30 AM ]
posted on February 27, 2001 08:47:06 AM new
Pocono, you sell computers, right? Say you put up for auction a computer that you claimed you didn't know much about, but hey, it might be a Pentium4. I bid realizing that it may not be a P4, but decide to take a chance. I win your auction, and when I fire it up it turns out to be a old 8086. I'm disappointed, but accept full responsibility and am not angry because you didn't say for sure it was a P4.
So I email telling you what it was (not complaining, just filling you in because you wanted to know what I found out about it) and you email me back saying you're disappointed, but oh well. That's fine, I took a chance and lost. But now you're so happy you got $600 for an old piece of crap that you put up another for auction, KNOWING FULL WELL THAT IT'S AN OLD 8086. You word your ad the same way ("don't know if it's valuable or not, but I got a good price for the last one" when in fact you do know. That's ethical?
In another post you talk about harrassment. Who's harrassing? I asked for opinions only, I have not contacted the seller or buyer.
Everyone else, the closest analogy I've seen so far is laum1's. This isn't about an item being sold for more than you can buy it at a Walmart etc. I wish I could give more details, but I can't without identifying the seller. (I'll ask her to drop by).
I appreciate some of you have questions you would like answered before pronouncing judgement. If I could give the full story you'd understand that it's not about dueling experts, getting the most you can at an auction etc. It's about putting a near worthless item up for auction and playing ignorant when you are not. Those of you who think that getting $400 for a PS2 box and receipt is fine probably won't agree with me.
I hesitated to even begin this thread because it must necessarily be vague, so I tried to reduce it to it's essential elements - the ethics of selling something you know is worthless, but pumping it up as a maybe-rarity while pleading ignorance.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:29:22 AM new
Hi firstover,
I'm not judging you, just offering an opinion. Thanks for the thread, by the way. I would agree with you on your PC analogy. I was thinking that the item was more of an obscure collectible with a more subjective way of determining value.
posted on February 27, 2001 09:32:54 AM new
There is nothing unethical about what she is doing.
She does not KNOW that the item is worhtless, only you said it was.
Did you get a certified appraisal from a recognized expert?
Items, collectables in particular, are worth what people are willing to pay for them. She could agrue in court that the item is indeed worth $40 since it was sold twice at auction for that amount or more.
when in fact you do know. That's ethical?