posted on April 14, 2001 05:28:39 PM
I must say that I feel that I'm being treated unfairly by eBay..
Here's the story in short form: there were lots of great songs played on the eighties cartoon, Jem. Unfortunatly, a great deal of them never made it to the cassette releases that came with the dolls, and definitely never to a convenient CD format. Many people have been recording these songs from the cartoon onto CD and selling them through eBay or other online auction sites. I'm *not* aiming to start a flame-war about copyrights and such on this material; because that isn't the aim of my dissatisfaction with eBay. It is no longer a matter of legal vs. illegal, it's a matter of fairness which they have not been showing me.
Okay, so me and my brother a few months ago put together a complete Jem set which we were really proud of and posted it on eBay. Not long afterwards, someone stole my graphics and started selling his own auctions using our CD design. I complained to eBay about him, he got mad, reported me, blah blah blah.
That isn't even the aim of this message. Here's the thing that really gets to me: after my Jem CD auctions got taken off, I reported the other sellers who were doing the same thing. Get this: even though they cancelled mine, THEY COULD FIND NO REASON TO DO THE SAME TO THE OTHERS POSTED!
To make it worse, I found today that *my eBay account had been cancelled*. So what, eBay can remove my auctions AND my account in the blink of an eye but it takes at least a week to reply to my messages only to tell me that the other Jem CD auctions are completely legit? What's going on here, anyway? I'm seriously beginning to doubt eBay's integrity. Any idea on *why* eBay is seemingly discriminating against me?
NOTE: Like I said, I don't want to start a flame war. Copyright issues isn't what this post is about. It's about eBay's fairness to sellers. I just wanted to make that clear once more.
posted on April 14, 2001 06:09:29 PM
Your complaint reminds me of the speeder who gets pulled over by a cop and as the cop is writing the ticket, the speeder points to all the other cars whizzing by and says, "Why don't you go after them? They're speeding too!"
You broke the law (by the unauthorized sale of copyrighted music). Do yourself a favor. Take your medicine and move on.
posted on April 15, 2001 05:32:57 AM
Hmm.... but I still want to know why my auctions AND account should be cancelled when no one else, who does the same thing, can go on selling as free as can be.
posted on April 15, 2001 07:22:26 AM
Ebay has millions of auctions going at a time. They don't police them. You came to their attention because someone "fingered" you. They may have closed your auctions and not the others because they may not have gotten other complaints about them. Not having seen the wording of any of the auctions in question, I can't guess why the others were not also closed. Could be something to do with Ebays vero program (it is based on the first to "give their side of the story", as is much of life). There are many, many auctions for American Girl (and Barbie) doll clothes that are in violation of one or more listing rules, yet they don't get shut down.
I don't know why your account would be cancelled unless you relisted the item without changing anything, or it could be due to the vero program again. You can appeal the decision and hopefully get reasons for the action and find out what you need to do to be reinstated.
I believe Ebay has too many auctions, buyers and sellers to take the time and effort to discriminate against any one seller. Don't take it personally everytime life is unfair.
Pepper
posted on April 15, 2001 12:43:40 PM
it's always funny to me when people take stuff like this personally. why would they discriminate against you particularly when they don't even know you?
it's not discrimination, it's the fact that one Safeharbor rep (or whatever department was in charge here) looked at your auctions and decided one thing, and another Safeharbor rep on a different shift looked at the auctions that you reported and saw the same auctions, but made a different decision. it's very obvious that Ebay doesn't have a lot of across-the-board communications with their reps and they are given some latitude to make decisions and judgement calls.
you got the more vigilant rep, and the other people got the rep who is laid back. it sucks, but please don't turn it into some kind of victimization thing. If anything you've been victimized by bureaucracy. Write them a letter, but don't expect an answer. Big corporations are not democracies in any way shape or form.
I know you want to divorce your actions from the consequences, but it's impossible. They are not separable, since if you had not been doing something illegal in your auction, this whole mess would not have occurred. I'm just curious---do you feel what you & other people did/do was wrong? if not,how do you justify it? Just because you and other people want this music and it's not available, makes it OK for you to take it and profit off it?
the fact that there aren't enough people to police all the copyright-frauds does not mean it's OK to do.
someone wrote that music and they have the right to release it or not release it for sale as they choose. you didn't like it when someone stole YOUR stuff and made money off it.....now did you?
posted on April 15, 2001 01:33:15 PM
TabithaElaine:
There is a simple answer here, and you probably won't like it.
The person who turned you in is probably a VERO member. Therefore your auctions got cancelled, no questions asked.
YOU, on the other hand, are NOT a VERO member (just guessing here) so the auctions that you reported were not cancelled. Only the verified rights owner of the intellectual property in question (VERO member) can automatically get an auction(s) cancelled.
I have no idea why your ebaY account was closed however. This USUALLY happens when a cancelled auction is relisted with no real changes having been made to the listing.
posted on April 15, 2001 02:49:00 PM
TabithaElaine, as others have pointed out, there's nothing fair about the way ebay doles out their inconsistent "disclipline."
You can get some satisfaction by going to the auctions still running and, using "mail this auction to a friend," send them all to SafeHarbor, expressing your "shock" at the blatant abuse of copyright. You should open another account first, if you haven't already.
Then take a page from the book that's just hit you on the head. Register your new ID with VeRO, create a new auction template and, when the next person rips you off, use it to get them nuked.
posted on April 15, 2001 03:09:55 PM
TabithaElaine:
Dont be too worried over this. You're not alone. Ebay hates me too. I went thru the same thing with them a few times. I've been suspended twice over selling so called "copyrighted" material. In my case it was videotapes of stuff that was never released. If the company owns the rights but doesnt release it to the public, why cant I sell it? I'm not taking from their pocket! They wont release it, they refuse to make money off it. So I stepped up. Ebay cancelled my auctions, let everyone else's of similiar items go. Someone rats you out, & you're branded for life. Just be a good little girl & list non copyrighted stuff until the smoke clears when they let you back on. Were you just suspended for a month like me or were you totally kicked off?
posted on April 15, 2001 05:14:44 PMIf the company owns the rights but doesnt release it to the public, why cant I sell it? I'm not taking from their pocket! They wont release it, they refuse to make money off it. So I stepped up.
That's blatant thievery.
If someone owned a one-of-a-kind car but kept it locked in a garage and never used it, does that give you the right to take it? I don't think so.
If a film studio finances a movie but upon completion decides to shelve it because the final result is substandard and would be a poor reflection on the studio, does that give you the right to start selling copies of it?
posted on April 15, 2001 07:16:09 PM
Well, I'm not going to go into details, since I didn't want this to be about legality in the first place. All I'll say on this point is even though how it sounds on face value, I feel that I and everyone else who makes CDs like mine are completely justified in their actions.
It all boils down the to fact that (a) some unknown person with an unknown grudge for me saw my auctions and got mad; (b) this unknown got eBay to cancel my auctions for copyright infringements *while posting tons of his own for the same type of item* (I know he he is and he isn't a VERO member); and (c) no matter what representative I get, they seem to have every reason to cancel mine no questions asked while others they don't have the right to.
It's just a bit annoying. eBay didn't even send me any info about my account cancellation; I don't know how long it's for or what.
All I know for sure is I've gotten too deep into this to stop now. But if some sleazy hypocrite is going to bring me down, I'm taking everyone else in the business with me.
posted on April 15, 2001 07:50:43 PMAll I'll say on this point is even though how it sounds on face value, I feel that I and everyone else who makes CDs like mine are completely justified in their actions.
What a great comment!
I'm sure the people who steal from 7-11 feel justified in their actions, too.
posted on April 15, 2001 08:50:28 PM
I don't see sarcasm in potato's comment. It's the flat-out truth. It's theft. You're stealing someone else's property and reselling it for your own gain.
posted on April 15, 2001 11:54:15 PM
I'm sorry that one of your competitors got vengeful ~ even more sorry that you feel the need to reciprocate. You made a mistake, you got caught. You were fully aware of the legalities when you chose to sell those items.
I guess the real issue you have is that someone chose to steal something you created that was helping you to profit from the stolen goods someone else created in hopes that they too could profit from the stolen items stolen marketing???
(whew!)
Why is it okay for you to steal, but not for someone to steal from you?
Play by the rules. (or, as my dad would say,"if you're gonna be stupid ya gotta be tuff"}
Sorry you got burned by one of life's lessons. No one ever said growing up was easy.
You've got a lot of talent ~ use it for something not stolen that can make you even more money and make you proud at the same time!!(but don't forget to register with vero first!)
Good Luck!
posted on April 16, 2001 05:58:55 AM
Wow... I started reading this thread and just couldn't stop!! *smile*
Actually, I understand that VERO members legitimately have RIGHTS... and it's up to THEM to protect their rights.
As someone so aptly pointed out earlier in this thread "Life Isn't Fair"....
and by the same token, I don't see where it's OUR JOB to worry about some other VERO members copyrights being infringed upon.
It's a DOG EAT DOG world, and folks are gonna make money off of Fakes, Knock-Offs, Faux Items etc. whether we like it or not. Let the folks with the VERO Program working in THEIR FAVOR at eBay worry about their own responsibilities.
It's tough on the individual seller if they get caught legitimately "wrong doing" in a VERO's 'territory"... and I certainly sympathize with the individual seller... but it must be aggrevating as heck to be "nuked" for some such "wrong doing" while others continue blatanly making money violating the same VERO's in the same way.
It's a matter of principal. Nuke one... then Nuke them ALL. (but then again... "Life Isn't Fair"
Personally, I couldn't care less if some VERO'S rights are infringed upon. It's not MY problem... the only time it would concern me is if it were MY VERO rights - and there again... that WOULD be MY responsibility to protect MY rights. Not necessarily any body elses responsibility.
I don't understand how so many folks can get all up in TabithaElaines business about "breaking the law"... or Violating VERO. It's not even OUR problem. Amazing how eBay (over a period of time) sorta "brainwashes" everyone into a certain "belief system" that is good for EBAY.
Example: "Spam" is such a bad thing. (really? Let ME decide with my own DELETE key.)
Example: VERO members have free access to all of our contact information. (what about our PRIVACY? - better read the fine print)
Example: Safeharbor INVESTIGATES issues, while the "community" plays vigilante by policing itself and turning eachother in to eBay. (how convenient and cost effective for eBay!)
Exactly where do WE get off of our high horses?
It's NOT OUR JOB to "shame" our fellow buying and selling peers. If we don't support each other and provide some measure of comfort for each other when we MAKE MISTAKES or have a rough week.... who else will?
I'm not going to make a "judgement call" on TabithaElaines CDs that were ended.... but I will say that I can only imagine how frustrated she must feel after being SUSPENDED while her DOUBLE copy-cat Competitor remains on eBay UNSCATHED.
posted on April 16, 2001 06:35:52 AMThe example you use in this case is clueless and useless in this case. Your attitude is just what is to be expected here, but you do have a right to your opinion and I respect that
And what YOU described in your post is outright criminal behavior. Anyone who does what you say your husband did ought to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I don't give a damn who feels fulfilled by seeing the movie -- you didn't write it, you didn't film it, you didn't finance it, you didn't star in it, it isn't yours. You have no right possessing it in the first place, let alone reselling it for your own profit. You did absolutely nothing but steal it. You're no better than a common thief who stuffs a videotape under his shirt at K-Mart.
You want clueless? Read your own words.
Dottie,
I don't understand how so many folks can get all up in TabithaElaines business about "breaking the law"... or Violating VERO. It's not even OUR problem.
What a load of crap. When people break the law it hurts us all, because we're the ones who ultimately end up paying a price for it, either directly through increased product costs or in terms of having to jump through procedural hoops to conduct business securely, all on account of a tiny minority of selfish, immoral people who don't want to work for a living, who just want to leech off the hard work of others.
posted on April 16, 2001 07:16:43 AM
spaz: I understand your view and certainly have felt that way in the past. I think what makes me feel differently about it is that the same abuses take place on the street corners of New York and in flea markets across america. NOT just on eBay.
NAPSTER is one example of copyright infringement... just because everyone else is doing it does NOT make it "O.K."
I think the point in this thread is NOT so much that TabithaElaine was peddling items of possible VERO violation... it's that in 2 years time, eBay has NOT provided a program for protecting VEROS against violators that is even-handed.
IF what TabithaElaine was doing is SO offensive to us all... then we should be equally incensed about her copy-catting competitor who is STILL peddling items of possible VERO violation on the site.
BUT... if we rest on our laurels with the "Life Isn't Fair" cliche, then indeed that is ALSO true with regard to VERO members being responsible for protecting their own rights.
VEROs are often motivated to protect their Brand Name items from being reproduced and sold "black market" because it devalues their products... making it harder for them to charge outrageous prices for things that CAN be produced and sold for much less.
WHO is attempting to rip off WHO?
Like I said, I'm not necessarily "for" the sale of FAKES or otherwise copyright infringing items... but I'm also not so sure I want to be forced into paying High Prices for "exclusive" NAME BRAND items, soley for the sake of it's "Exclusive Name Brand" - rather than QUALITY.
IF what TabithaElaine was doing is SO offensive to us all... then we should be equally incensed about her copy-catting competitor who is STILL peddling items of possible VERO violation on the site.
If her copy-catting competitor were to come here to AW for sympathy and assistance in order to continue selling their illegal items, I am sure they would receive the same response. No discrimination there.
TabithaElaine asks:
What's going on here, anyway? I'm seriously beginning to doubt eBay's integrity.
Here we have an admitted copyright infringer doubting (seriously?!?) the integrity of another? The concept is almost comical.
It is no longer a matter of legal vs. illegal, it's a matter of fairness which they have not been showing me.
In other words...
While I may be treating another unfairly with my unauthorized and illegal use of their property, I expect that eBay should, at all times, be fair in their dealings with me.
Yeah, that seems fair.
One more thing...
Like I said, I'm not necessarily "for" the sale of FAKES or otherwise copyright infringing items... but I'm also not so sure I want to be forced into paying High Prices for "exclusive" NAME BRAND items, soley for the sake of it's "Exclusive Name Brand" - rather than QUALITY.
Nobody can "force" you to pay "High Prices" against your will. If you want the "exclusive NAME BRAND item", you buy it, if you don't want it, you don't.
You don't, however, have any sort of right to it at whatever price you think is fair.
posted on April 16, 2001 07:54:55 AM
Seller discrimination
Your question:
Any idea on *why* eBay is seemingly discriminating against me?
After being caught selling stolen merchandise, your credibility with eBay has gone down tremendously. Add to it the attitude of your words:
if some sleazy hypocrite is going to bring me down, I'm taking everyone else in the business with me.
IMO, your "taking down" was written off as retaliatory accusations from someone who got caught with their hand in the cookie jar.
edditted four spelink
[ edited by zoomin on Apr 16, 2001 07:56 AM ]
posted on April 16, 2001 07:58:04 AMVEROs are often motivated to protect their Brand Name items from being reproduced and sold "black market" because it devalues their products... making it harder for them to charge outrageous prices for things that CAN be produced and sold for much less.
WHO is attempting to rip off WHO?
Dottie,
If they invented the product, if they crafted it, if they invested their finances to manufacture and market it, then they can ask any price they want. That's their right as creators and owners of the product..
There is no converse right allowing someone to produce or sell a cheap knock-off just because there are people who don't want to pay for the real thing. Or, as we saw above, because they disagree with corporate policy.
It's simple principle. I don't get why so many fail to understand it.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:16:26 AM
i cannot believe i am seeing grown adults using variations on the old childish whine "If they can do it, why can't I?"
Didn't your momma teach you that that that complaint wouldn't fly back in, oh, 2nd grade or something?
And for heaven's sake, if I were going to rip something off (which I wouldn't)I'd at least make it something more meaningful than a cheezy 80s kids cartoon show.
I'm equally horrified by other grown adults saying "who are we to judge?"
the original poster's parents probably brought her up on the same garbage, because she obviously feels no shame about stealing.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:27:16 AM
Folks: I never said that TabithaElaine had the "right" to sell knock-offs. I DID say that I believe it's the VERO members (and eBays) responsibilty to protect their own rights... and I do NOT consider it "my job" or "my problem".
And TabithaElaine did NOT come in here for sympathy regarding her wrong doing.
The topic is "Seller Discimination". She is wondering what the difference is between HER wrong doing and the other copy-cats wrong doing.
And it would seem that one shouldn't be any LESS offensive than the other, therefore BOTH should have experienced the wrath of VERO = auctions ended and suspension.
Her honestly in this forum has envoked anger toward her rather than any acknowledgment that eBay's VERO program does not seem to handle issues of VERO violation even handedly.
Nobody here seems upset that someone is STILL peddling FAKES on eBay, even AFTER TabithaElaine notified SAFEHARBOR of the situation. I just find that... well, WRONG. *sigh*
Whether her motives are for "geting even" or not... she is RIGHT to be consumed with the desire to eliminate the other copy-cats from eBays listings. And anyone who is offended by her NARU'd VERO infiringing listings (by her own admission) should probably be just as angered (if not more so) with the knowledge that her competitor is STILL peddling FAKES and eBay seems to be alright with that.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:41:12 AM
If you're going to be doing something illegal, then it seems to me, that you shouldn't go out of your way to say it's illegal in your item description:
The songs have been digitally remastered for superior sound quality to remove background noise and hissing; but, keep in mind that these were recorded off of VHS tapes so they are not perfect in all cases.
So, you admitted in your description that you recorded.. or knew they were recorded off of VHS tapes. HELLO? That's the same thing as any other seller going, yea, this is a forgery but that's ok. Of course, ebay pulled yours when it was presented to them. IF, it was VEROed, then of course the copyright holder can easily go.. Hmm, this is obviously a forgery/fake/fraud/etc.
However, your competition, has not been so blatent. They have not stated that they recorded these CD's off of VHS tapes.
Let's not forget the graphics.. shall we?
The colors and graphic arrangements of the CD covers shown in the picture are identical to what you will get, as we are the creators of this design and did not pirate the graphic from someone else's auction.
Oh ...OK. You are the creator of the design and did not pirate the graphics from someone elses auction. Congratuations! However you did pirate the graphics from the VHS tape? Another website? And you're selling it? Hmmm, there's another VERO right there.
Moral of the story: If you're going to steal from someone, don't be so blatent about it, and maybe you'll get away with it. However, if you do get caught, do the world a favor, don't act as though you're the injured party.. because you're not.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:43:01 AMAnd anyone who is offended by her NARU'd VERO infiringing listings (by her own admission) should probably be just as angered (if not more so) with the knowledge that her competitor is STILL peddling FAKES and eBay seems to be alright with that.
I haven't read any posts here that indicate that the writer of the post supports the concept of selling fakes on eBay (aside from TabithaElaine's opinion that she should be able to do so herself).
Even the originator of this thread posted that they were upset that others selling the same things as her were not being stopped.
posted on April 16, 2001 08:44:44 AM
dottie:
what's "wrong" with the picture is the intentions and attitude of this threads originator. She is attempting to elicit your response to eradicate herself with her "poor me" story.
This is not someone who is reporting theft because it is wrong. This is a seller with no remorse or recognition that what she has done is illegal. She has not "seen the light" and wishes to shine it on others, her only problem with any of this is that she got caught.
Apparently her suspension from eBay still has not clued her in on the fact that she has committed a crime. Perhaps a visit from a law enforcement representative could enlighten her. Perhaps she should be made aware of selling these hot goodies across state lines, on the internet, through the mail, etc.
