posted on May 13, 2001 03:57:41 PM
As I understand the rule, the magazine would be allowed.
I sell some Nazi items from time to time, does that make me a Nazi, no, I also sell KKK items, does that make me a racist? No. I view them as history.
That said, how will they enforce it? Believe me, there are folks browsing on eBay just waiting to turn in items that don't conform to the policy. In the past, when I have listed WW II Nazi items, in almost every case I have received one or two e-mails along the lines of "I can't believe you would list such trash." Some much worse. I have been called a Nazi, and when I listed KKK items or Black memorabilia, I have been called a racist. I am neither. Many of my customers for these items are the exact opposite of what you think. I have sold Nazi items to US WW II vets who fought the Nazis, and to the Holocaust Museum. I have sold KKK and black memorabilia to African Americans. Just like I have sold Native American items to Native Americans.
I really don't think this was a moral decision for eBay. I think it was a business decision and an unwillingness to fight the legal process with German, Italy, and France. Frankly, I wish eBay had shown a bit of courage, and had told those countries where they could go, but what is done is done.
Now I wonder what will happen with Arabic countries. Will we no longer be able to sell mature items, or even fashion magazines? Or other countries that have laws against certain types of items. Italy won't allow the importation of many leather goos, does that mean when we have Ebay Italy, leather products won't be allowed? I think eBay has just opened a whole new can of worms bowing to this pressure.
posted on May 14, 2001 06:01:49 AM
This topic really upset me. I have been collecting various German items for awhile myself. I don't support or belong to any of these groups as most. I am interested in the historical value.
I started to looking up what the definition of "Hate Groups", "Hate Symbols" are. I found some things that were interesting. If you go to the Anti-Defemation Leauge's site (www.adl.org), they have a listing of "Hate Symbols". It is amazing some of the other groups they have linked to Nazi/KKK groups. One in particular is the Celtic symbols. They say the Celtic cross is a "Hate Symbol". Amazing! I don't believe they think the same thing in Ireland. They are all over the place. This is because of the close ancient link to the Norse culture. So in putting this into "their" light of day, and if ebay is holding up to thier policy of eliminating items of "Hate Groups". Ebay should be removing celtic items, Confederate items, Northern European culture items, let's go further. How about Hindu items since the orgin of the Nazi symbol is Hindu. What about other groups like PLO, Black Panthers or Nation of Islam. I have found lots of listings on ebay that the material listed denounced or threatened another race, culture or religion. I thought that this was the basis of the definition for "Hate Groups". This could go on and on.
I believe a lot of repressed cultures evolved organizations like these because of reasons like this.
posted on May 14, 2001 06:55:04 AM
A couple of my "Desert Storm" cards have pictures of Hitler and, heaven forbid, the Swastika on them. Guess full sets of these cards will no be allowed on eBay. I wonder if sellers will be "honest" enough to indicate in their listing: "Full set, excluding cards xxx that are forbidden on eBay"?
posted on May 14, 2001 08:31:13 AM
As of May 17th, the items under the "Banned" list will be removed. eBay will also rely on their membership base to turn in "violators".
No need to jump up and down and get excited, simply list elsewhere. They have made their decision and its over as of May 17th. eBay did the same thing to guns and assorted weapons, and ebay still survives without them. eBay will survive without Militaria.
The Internet detects and subverts inflated costs and excess at every turn.
Business 101 says all markets work this way; companies that overreach or under perform create openings for new entrants.
eBay created an opening for Militaria Collectibles Auction Haus. Many sellers have started to move their items ahead of the May 17th deadline.
The celebrated economist, Adam Smith, and his much cited "invisible hand" create a natural comparative advantage in a truly free and open market...in theory. In reality, "free markets" have never been all that free for a number of reasons that Smith did not anticipate or recognize. In the past, monopoly-driven companies have deployed an arsenal of assets -- distribution muscle, saturation advertising--to create entry barriers and limit competition. Smith's ideas with respect to comparative advantage were strictly theoretical. However, the rules of the game have changed, especially in the "Information Age," and Smith may be revalidated. Information cannot be centrally produced and controlled on the Internet and the cost of doing business has come way down. Joe's store can look, feel, and perform like a national department store on-line. There is no one version of the truth but a plethora of choices for all to see and judge. Any company, large or small, that offers a combination of quality, service, and price can succeed because those are the things people seek in a market economy and which are more available now through the Internet than ever before. Ultimately, the consumer benefits. People will sell, trade, haggle, invest, and socialize on a global scale with virtually no overhead or barriers compared to the past. The Internet is impacting culture and history like Gutenberg's press did the Middle Ages.
I do not think a single site will ever replace eBay. It will be interesting to see how everything shakes out.
My Militaria business now goes to Militaria Collectibles Auction Haus. Just as eBay had their market share, Auction Haus has their share. They do have activity, and they have been around for awhile and they do show promise.
posted on May 14, 2001 09:30:20 AM
The rules are so vague that there are many things I will not try to offer for fear of being NARU'd.
I sold a newspaper about the Reagan assasination attempt. The way I read it all items like that including JFK and Lincoln assasination material would be out.
What is a hate group? I would have to include all the US wartime comics and propaganda that refer to Japs and Krauts. Any news reel from that time. Same for any items that are racist in any way to the Irish/Chinese/Puerto Ricans/American Indians/hispanics etc,etc. No Confederate items. If you are an Isreali I suppose almost any Arab oriented thing is from a hate group. If you are an Arab I suppose almost any Jewish thing is.
I fear any artifact from an ethnic group that has ever been engaged in a conflict is out. Ebay has banned all coins from Germany during the Hitler years even if they have no symbols on them. So I guess any Turkish coins would be banned for Armenians, and any Japanese items for the Chinese. Nothing having to do with South Africa during the white government. Nothing having to do with the Soviets who slaughtered the Ukrainians and others. will that leave anything if we follow it to it's logical conclusion?
posted on May 14, 2001 09:42:25 AM
Well, I can tell you how Yahoo enforced their ban.
We upload our listings to Yahoo Classifieds for extra exposure and they started scanning the listings for keywords. If any keywords were found they didn't like, they rejected the whole batch. We asked them to let us know what their filtering keywords were so we could "pre-filter" our listings and at least upload the ones that didn't upset their filter, but they wouldn't tell us.
I hate these guessing games - we won't tell you what the rules are, but you need to follow them.
Personally, I think this is a very bad precendent. I'm not a Nazi fan or even interested in the stuff, but if a site actively filters and screens content, I believe it becomes more like a publisher, much like a newspaper is a publisher for it's writers rather than a common carrier like the phone company. As a common carrier, the phone company can't be sued if you receive harassing phone calls, but a newspaper *is* liable if a reporter does something illegal.
It seems to me that if eBay employs software that actively filters listings for keywords as Yahoo did, then France or whoever can sue eBay if a seller gets around the filtering by using N-a-z-i.
posted on May 14, 2001 10:06:25 AM
It seems that eBay is trying to do the same thing that the right-wing Japanese historians have attempted to do since the end of WWII; that is, suppress history by denying its' existence. Did you know that they are teaching kids in Japan that Pearl Harbor never happened and that Japan was simply "protecting" Asia and the Pacific from Imperialists during The War? I can understand banning items that glorify hatred and hate groups but to deny their existence is a pure distortion of fact and history. It seems that a blanket policy is easier to enforce than to judge each individual case on its' own merit. And isn't THAT discrimination?
posted on May 14, 2001 10:44:33 AM
"They have made their decision and its over as of May 17th. eBay did the same thing to guns and assorted weapons, and ebay still survives without them. eBay will survive without Militaria."
Of course they will.
And next week, when they come up with another blunder-headed rule or ban another group of items, they will still survive.
And the week after that when they do it again ...
But, even the most basic marketing course (there is no such thing as a "celebrated economist"!) has to tell you that if they keep doing this, eventually there will be nothing left allowed to be sold on their site.
posted on May 14, 2001 04:51:25 PM
Yes, eBay will continue to survive. It is their site, their business, and they make the rules. As people continue to support their monoply, they can do whatever they wish to whomever.
Guess what folks! There is a life after ebay! If you do not like what they are doing, use another site. Problem is, so many are afraid to jump ship and support other sites.
Do you continue to visit brick and mortar stores with poor service? The same holds true for online establishments. If you do not like what they are doing, time to move on.
[ edited by tolz on May 14, 2001 04:52 PM ]
posted on May 14, 2001 06:06:04 PM
Bravo Tolz ... well said!
Too many folks are addicted to eBay. It's easy to come here and rant and threaten, but when it comes time to put the rubber on the road they all crawl back into their addiction and do whatever their eBay Master orders ...
