posted on February 27, 2002 05:53:31 PM new
Not sure if there is a way around this, but if there is, please let me know!
I did a mass email advertising our new web site, through the really cool feature AW has for us, to about 5000 customers who have been winners on our past auctions. Anyways, 1 person out of the bunch contacted eBay about being spammed, and now eBay says if I do it again, they will shut this Powerseller down as it is against their policy to spam. I did not send the email to myself, should have, but does AW add something to the email that indicates they, (my customers), are getting the email because they won an eBay auction or something?
Thanks,
Brandywines on eBay.
posted on February 27, 2002 06:04:32 PM new
Not sure if this will help you BUT many ebay bidders have an email solely for ebay. That's how they know that's were you got it from.
You can use the email listing that AW has that the ebay people opt in. I use it. I send an email every 4-6 weeks telling them about up coming auctions. However, I copy the list of address and email them without using AW just because I like it that way!
posted on February 27, 2002 06:27:53 PM new
Tell eBay to mind their own business. If they do ever suspend you for communicating with YOUR customers, you'll sue.
posted on February 27, 2002 10:45:53 PM new
I was reading the new Privacy Policy and stumbled across this:
"PRIVACY POLICY...
5. Your Use of Other Users' Information.
...(last paragraph)
eBay and our users do not tolerate spam. Therefore, without limiting the foregoing, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected]."
posted on February 28, 2002 12:02:02 AM new
Just because someone bid on something of yours in the past does not mean they want to hear from you again and again.
If I were your bidder I would have reported you as well. Well........ok maybe I would not have reported you.....I'm not vindictive or out to ruin peoples accounts but I would have sent a semi-nasty email requesting you never contact me again.
This is EXACTLY why I will NEVER use auctionwatch or andale checkouts when I bid on stuff.
If you want to have a mailing list ask your customers BEFORE you prepare your spam.
Spam being unsolicited commercial emails, bidder or not they did not request you contact them in the future. Your repeat email to them is unsolicited.
Many sellers have repeat customers which makes online selling more fun when you get to know your customers........build your list from people who regularly return to your auctions or website etc etc.
[quote]I did a mass email advertising our new web site, through the really cool feature AW has for us, to about 5000 customers who have been winners on our past auctions. [/quote]
On a side rant......you contacted all these 5,000 past bidders promoting your website.........definately spam by all definitions.....you basically commited what is generally termed email harvesting.....collecting and using emails from the ebay site for promotion of a non ebay venture.
Depending on the attitude of these recipients your site may reported for spam to your webhosting company. Some of the older bidders may not even remember the bid they placed months/years ago and they may not be happy about your email.
I hope for your sake you don't get anyone else reporting you to Ebay or your web hosting company but don't be surprised that if out of 5,000 emails sent you get a few more complaints.
posted on February 28, 2002 06:00:29 AM new
What you did was not spam. It was a perfectly legitimate business practice that eBay itself does, as do many other businesses. Every major vendor I have done business with on the net sends periodic emails about sales etc..
It would be spam if you harvested email addys from persons that have never done business with you. When you make a sale to one of YOUR customers, you have established a business relationship that eBay has nothing to do with, and eBay has actually pleaded this in court on several occaisions.
eBay could care less about the spam issue. eBay is worried about losing fees to direct sales. eBay will also have problems enforcing this TOS, as it may be seen as interference with business relationships, et al.
However, you do run the risk of alienating customers with these mass emails, but what the heck, they would never know about your site if you didn't contact them, so you have nothing to lose.
posted on February 28, 2002 07:30:08 AM new
Well another Spam thread. About a week ago I was taken to task for saying on this board that I had e-mailed about 40 of my old customers about an upcoming event that I thought they would be interested in. (Many were) I was told by the thread originator, that that was Spam. It appears that no one really understands Spam and what it really is (Not what you or I THINK it is). Has anyone seen a true definition with references (That will stand up) of Spam?
posted on February 28, 2002 08:13:56 AM new
<It appears that no one really understands Spam and what it really is (Not what you or I THINK it is). Has anyone seen a true definition with references (That will stand up) of Spam? >
<Spam = unsolicited commercial eMail.>
I just know that there is way too much of it.
I also consider non-commercial E-mail to be spam. These include political advertisements, e-mail from people on message boards, etc. If I want to talk to people on a message board on the side via e-mail, I will say so.
So, spam can have shifting definitions.
Now, back to this thread.
I would consider my product before I "spammed" past buyers. If my product was general merchandise, I would be hesitant. If my product was a hobby-type product and certain customers bought more than once from me as I released new products, I would feel more comfortable with it.
But, I really hate spam. So, as someone has already suggested, I would use the "opt in" approach.
As a seller, Spam is a no-lose proposition, if you don't mind getting kicked of ISP's, etc. However, I would be very careful about mass, unsolicited e-mails if one doesn't want to lose their ebay privileges or have to find a new ISP.
posted on February 28, 2002 08:33:51 AM new
eBay says:
"PRIVACY POLICY...
5. Your Use of Other Users' Information.
...(last paragraph)
eBay and our users do not tolerate spam. Therefore, without limiting the foregoing, you are not licensed to add an eBay user, even a user who has purchased an item from you, to your mail list (email or physical mail) without their express consent after adequate disclosure. To report eBay related spam to eBay, please send an email to [email protected]."
While I appreciate eBay's anti-spam efforts, I don't see how they can interfere with emails that have nothing to do with them.
posted on February 28, 2002 08:55:54 AM new
I dread to think what my daoily email would look like if every seller I purchased from emailed me on a regular basis.
As far as telling Ebay to mind their own business and threatening to sue Ebay, whoever suggested that must be your competitor and is looking to get rid of you fast.
Do you really have the fundage to sue over something so clearly stated in the TOS?
If you want to start an email list have your bidders opt in.
posted on February 28, 2002 09:04:50 AM new
If you have a good case, the lawyers will jump at it for a contingency fee.
Ebay can't have it both ways. When a buyer gets screwed on eBay, eBay's first defence in court is to say that the transaction relationship is strictly between the seller and buyer, we're just a venue where the seller advertises.
This clearly shows that the transaction is just between the buyer and seller, and what arises from that transaction is none of eBay's business.
Now eBay wants to make it their business if there is a possibiltiy that communication between buyer and seller might result in the buyer purchasing items not subject to eBay fees.
They can't have it both ways. Once you establish a business relationship by your eBay sale, what then transpires is between the buyer and seller.
posted on February 28, 2002 09:30:30 AM new
I've had sellers add me to their lists. If they ask me in advance, then I have no problem. However, if they add me JUST BECAUSE I bid in their auction, that is wrong. The first step is to be polite and ask them to be removed (I manage several mailing lists with tens of thousands of people, so I am a list administrator and I know I deal with someone being nice a lot better than a jerk. This usually works, end of problem. However, if that does not work, I use several tools I know, such as reporting them directly to their ISP and if applicable, Ebay, Yahoo, Web hosting company. I also use a program called Spam Cop - It is available at
http://www.spamcop.net - It helps with the legitimate companies who somehow get my email address.
[ edited by ahc3 on Feb 28, 2002 09:32 AM ]
I sh!t-can (by way of mail filtering) all advertising from companies I have previously done business with online, like Coldwater Creek, Lands' End, L.L. Bean, and AuctionWatch.
As an eBay buyer (and seller) I would have no complaint if a past seller sent me email provided that it was not OBVIOUSLY an advertising solicitation.
That's where you went wrong. You apparently wrote up a h@ppy-cr@ppy missive promoting your website and fired it off to 5000 people. The surprise is that only one complained to eBay.
There's way too much of this dreck arriving in peoples' mailboxes every day. Most people don't read beyond the first line or two before hitting the DELETE key.
Here's your challenge:
Contact your past customers with email that doesn't look like obvious boilerplate. Come up with your own format (but not boilerplate). Here are a few ideas.
1) Include transaction details and solicit input.
"Good morning, Ms. Brown. We are eBay seller `thebestdealanywhere' (not an actual eBay seller) contacting you to follow up on your purchase of a sterling silver charm bracelet on eBay last month. We are eager to make the buying experience as smooth and trouble-free as possible, as well as assuring that you receive the highest-quality products from us. We welcome your input. If you have a moment, click here to pass along your comments."
2) Unfinished business. If they never left you feedback, include a customized clickable link so they can. State that you value their opinion on the transaction and you hope they'll take a moment to do feedback.
3) Chatty `how-ya-doin'-style notes. This is hardest to do because it's really only feasible with customers who have volunteered some personal details. I had one customer who had eye cancer and had to have the eye removed; another who had her stomach stapled; another whose husband has heart disease; another who is having some short-term memory loss and is worried about it; another who was recovering from a heart attack; another who cares for her terminally-ill daughter 24/7, etc.
People like getting email, as long as the email isn't commercially impersonal. That's the key.
posted on February 28, 2002 10:20:44 AM new
REAMOND: I understand what you are saying, and the legal argument makes sense. However, if I buy something from an eBay seller, it doesn't mean I am or want to be that seller's "customer for life" and receive unsolicited communication from them forevermore (or even once more).
The solution is simple: at the close of a transaction, the seller can send a thank you (or a "feedback given" email and politely ask me if I want to be notified of future offers. If I opt in, then it is not spam. If I decline, or say nothing, then I don't want to get commercial emails from this seller. If a buyer opts in, then the process is "eBay kosher", and the seller has a list of people who are truly interested in what they have to offer, which should translate in to a more effective mass mailing.
As a seller, I would violate eBay policies (regardless of whether they are right or wrong) only if I did not depend upon eBay as a selling venue. If I do not care if my account is suspended, then I would do what I want. I might be right, but I'd also be shut down. That's what a seller must consider, especially if they have received a specific warning from eBay.
And, while we are on the subject, BUYERS: just because I sold you something on eBay doesn't mean I want to be added to your "friends and family" spam mailing list---with the holiday news, prayer requests, virus warnings (generally accompanied by the virus in question), and other such nonsense. ESPECIALLY if you never paid me for your first purchase, AND if you haven't made any further purchases! Sheesh!
posted on February 28, 2002 10:55:49 AM new
mypostingid - I agree that buying from a seller doesn't mean you're their customer for life. Resolving and defining the business relationship is between you and the seller, and is done through your communications - and eBay has stated this time and again in the courts.
My contention is that eBay has no business in that relationship by its own admission, which includes taking punitive action against a seller that communicates sales information to that buyer.
If eBay wishes to exercise dominion over our business interactions, then they can't pick and choose which ones they will butt into and which ones they will not based on how it impacts their revenue and liabilities. If they wish to take on this right, then the next court case they should be barred from the "just a venue" defence.
If I do not have control over my business communications, then I don't have control of my business. Interferring with my private business communications and relationships to my detriment will be heard in court. The way they're setting up their interaction with sellers' business opens them up for anti-trust and other issues.
I offer related items at a discount in all of my end of auction emails to MY customers. I generate 40% extra sales through this communication. Both myself and my lawyer salivate over eBay taking any punitive action against me over the content of my private business communications with MY customers.
posted on February 28, 2002 11:14:10 AM new
Reamond: Yes, that makes sense. I, too, offer related items in my EOA email under the doctrine of "git while the gittin's good" and to allow the buyer to take advantage of combined shipping. I think where you'll hear the buyers cry "spam" is if they receive unsolicited and unrelated commercial emails months or years after they have completed the transaction. I may believe that eBay has no business getting involved in that---and certainly not to the extent of suspending an account---but I'll leave it to you or someone else to test in court. With my limited resources, I'd just mess it up and there we'd be with a bad precedent. You can count on me, though, to kick in a few bucks to your legal fund!
posted on February 28, 2002 11:32:43 AM new
mypostingid- Thanks for your offer, but don't worry about resources. You get a case against eBay that presents a legally sound argument or even a unique and never addressed issue and you'll be turning lawyers away willing to take the case for 1/3 of the damage award.
Corporations will do whatever they want until an enterprising and talented lawyer gets a good hook in them.
email and politely ask me if I want to be notified of future offers. If I opt in, then it is not spam. If I decline, or say nothing, then I don't want to get commercial emails from this seller. If a buyer opts in, then the process is "eBay kosher", and the seller has a list of people who are truly interested in what they have to offer, which should translate in to a more effective mass mailing.