posted on March 2, 2002 12:17:12 PM new
I have almost 1500 positive feedbacks with 11 negs.
Most of my negs came when I would leave FB first, when I was a newbie or from a pay back when I would leave a neg first for good reason.
I rarely leave bad feedback first any more, be damned the system, you do not put your hand in a fire you know is hot!
I finally realized that I was leaving FB for every sale and not getting return FB from many or even getting a neg. Sometimes they neg without even emailing first! Some fair play that!
Big waste of time in my opinion leaving feedback every time I received payment, very time consuming going back through hundreds of weeks old sales to find the auction. ...
For over a year now, my policy is posted on every auction as such..."I am always happy to return feedback on the completion of the transaction" Key words there are "RETURN feed back when the transaction is complete!" My definition of a completed transaction is when the person has received their purchase and lets me know that by posting feedback or emailing me. If the email is praise, I always email back a thank you and write "I will be happy to return feedback to you if you care to exchange "
Ebay suggests to leave feedback on completion of the transaction.
A transaction is NOT completed until you know they have received the mdse and they are satisfied or not, if they are going to keep it or send it back or the old "I think you should rebate part of what I paid because bla bla bla..!" (Sometimes I will if I feel they have a legit complaint sometimes I won't.) Sometimes, not doing so will get me a neg...oh well,,,I will not be ripped off either by a buyer holding FB over my head..
When those who choose to leave feedback do leave feedback, I then simply click on the link by my feedback and return it...that simple. Takes 2 seconds!
Sellers have hundreds of auctions and this policy has saved me soooo much time and energy! I have had only one complaint of it from a buyer. They said "you got my money, now you should leave feedback!" I said, the transaction is not complete yet, you have not received your item..I always return bla bla bla...End of story.
I do not see that as holding feedback over a buyers head although a perk is they do think twice. I consider it good business. Some sellers and buyers leave no feedback at all and that is their right, also.
Thanks for listening to my rambling but it just irks me when I read "holding FB over a buyers head" and all the complaints from sellers about getting BFB after they left good..It just seems to me a very bad business policy to leave feedback before the transaction is complete
kiddo2
[ edited by kiddo2 on Mar 2, 2002 12:18 PM ]
[ edited by kiddo2 on Mar 2, 2002 12:20 PM ]
[ edited by kiddo2 on Mar 2, 2002 12:57 PM ]
posted on March 2, 2002 12:52:24 PM new
Strongly Agree ! I used to leave FB as soon as payment arrived- no more I got zinged for no reason by new users after leaving positives. Also left fb by accident on unpaid & unshipped items & guess what happened ... Your way works much better.
posted on March 2, 2002 01:09:21 PM new
so basically what we have is a retaliation policy, not a feedback policy. If you leave positive feedback than I will also. If you leave neg, I'll zap you too! The purpose of feedback is to relate your experience with a buyer or a seller. As a seller, you cannot get a more positive response from a buyer than the receipt of a payment. Thus, as soon as the payment arrives, your experience should be a positive one. If you want to wait for the payment to clear, that is understood. If you are advertising the description accurately, package the item well and ship it, you've done your part. Feedback should reflect that. Waiting until the "transaction" is over is a matter of defining "end" of transaction. Many quote ebay's rule of when to post feedback. Few define "end" as anything other than "my definition".
posted on March 2, 2002 01:30:28 PM new
Good Bad or Otherwise its up to each ebay user to determine how they handle feedback on transactions. Ebay chooses not to police the system they define its borders- Inside the borders its like the Old west - Most folk are law abidin' but thare be Varmits out in the badlands . The first post does a nice job explaining.
posted on March 2, 2002 02:02:25 PM new
masujoviga
The entire feedback system is open for retaliation, depending on who hits first anyway!..One man from Canada wrote me and said he very much liked his purchase but if I did not mind, he chose not to participate in "Ebays mutual admiration society" (ie feedback) I have occasionally received negs/neutrals that I have responded to on my side but have not retaliated to the other person, when I could understand how the person might feel that way, even if I disagreed.. You are missing the whole major point...I do not have the time to leave everyone a feedback, I am the one with hundreds of auctions, not just a few bids on other auctions..My feedback policy is up front and posted. It works well. As a perk, it does stop UNFAIR bad FB..AND, it is very obvious that a transaction is not over til its over...not half way through, just cause you got payment. Many times I have received and given good feedback AFTER the item was received and adjustments were made, even returned, whoops wrong size, whoops you said it was bakelite but it is plastic that looks like bakelite...whoops, I missed that hairline, sorry! I will send a refund via Paypal, my mistake, even shipping refunded..keep the vase..all kinds of things....when transaction is completed???get it??? I take it you are a newbie??
kiddo2
posted on March 2, 2002 02:56:31 PM newYES! FEEDBACK HOSTAGE-HOLDING IS FUN!Especially over the past few mos with all the wacky kaka-popo brained NEWBIES descending!I now include the following line in my "SHIPPED" email:"Auctions should be fun! If you have any questions about your purchase after it arrives, PLEASE contact me! I check my feedback profile at least once/day and reciprocate immediately. I'm very grateful for all the kind comments over the past 2 years!" Has the added benefit of actually INCREASING the # of FBs I've been receiving lately!
posted on March 2, 2002 03:01:56 PM new
Actually posting a negative in return for an undeserved negative is NOT retaliation. That buyer showed that they are not fair and a negative warns other sellers of their behaviour.
If I got a negative because I really screwed up, I'd take my lumps. I might not post a feedback at all, but I don't believe I'd stoop so low as to post a negative in retaliation. But for one I didn't deserve, I think I might neg them because they showed they aren't a good customer.
posted on March 2, 2002 03:21:34 PM new
The feedback system is still voluntary, right? If so, then everyone is free to leave it or not leave it as they see fit. There is no right or wrong...just my way, your way, his way, her way, whatever.
I really do not understand why people get so worked up over this issue.
posted on March 2, 2002 04:42:28 PM new
kiddo2 wrote : "when transaction is completed???get it??? I take it you are a newbie??"
Now you've convinced me! You are not one to retaliate as the above statement points out.
Newbie or not, your definition of a completed transaction is exactly as you stated: "my definition". I never claimed to give a better definition of a completed transaction. I merely stated that since the buyer completed his part of the transaction and you were satisfied with such action, you should relate your experience into a feedback. Waiting to post feedback until after the buyer has posted his or hers is a retaliation technique. No other way of looking at it! I am curious however about your statements...if you are so busy as to not have time to leave feedback when they buyer pays, since you have soooo many auctions. how do you find time to post on this forum?
posted on March 2, 2002 05:29:00 PM new
Masujoviga,
The big disagreement on feedback has always been the determination of when the buyers responsibilities have ended. In order to understand attitudes toward feedback, you really need to have a good understanding of what is involved in a transaction. The following is your standard (and ideal) transaction process:
Transaction START:
1) Seller lists item accurately
2) Seller Answers any questions about item
3) Seller sends out EOA notice
4) Bidder mails payment
5) Seller receives payment
6) Seller Ships item
7) Bidder receives item
Transaction END
Notice several things about the transaction. There are 7 critical steps. These actions MUST be completed. (with the exception of possibly #2). Also note that the seller is responsible for 5 of the 7 actions, while the Bidder is responsible for only two. For a transaction to be complete, the bidder MUST both send payment AND receive the item. It is simple logic to determine then that the bidder is not done with their part of the transaction until they have received the item. It is not a difficult concept to grasp. Anyone who leaves feedback before this point is leaving feedback prematurely because the transaction has not been completed. If you are a seller and choose to leave feedback after a bidder has completed only 1 of their 2 responsibilities, that is your choice. However, do not cast blame on those sellers who truly understand the working of the transaction and wait for it to be completed before leaving feedback.
posted on March 2, 2002 05:44:53 PM new
However, do not cast blame on those sellers who truly understand the working of the transaction and wait for it to be completed before leaving feedback.
Once again an OPINION of a transaction rather than a definition. I may fail to understand YOUR opinion just as you fail to understand mine. A buyer fulfills his contract by sending money. Once it arrives, clears, gets deposited in your account the ball is in the seller's court. The buyer has fulfilled his obligation. Why does the transaction end when the buyer receives the merchandise??? What if the buyer refuses the merchandise yet does not want a refund? Does that mean its a non transaction??? Is the buyer allowed to purchase an item as a gift and have it shipped elsewhere never technically receiving the merchandise? Does that make the transaction void? Or better yet, since in your terms you state not responsible for lost packages, if the package is lost and thus never received, is this also a non transaction? Failure to leave feedback when the buyer has sent the payment and the seller has verified that the method of payment is genuine is a polite way of telling the buyer that you will hold feedback over said buyer's head. I challenge you to point out a positive feedback you posted after the buyer left a negative!
[ edited by masujoviga on Mar 2, 2002 05:47 PM ]
posted on March 2, 2002 06:04:31 PM new
masujoviga: I challenge you to point out a positive feedback you posted after the buyer left a negative!
Interesting point. If last-left feedback is truly non-retaliatory, then there should be many instances of positive feedback left even though the buyer left a neg. Well spoken.
I think masujoviga "understands the transaction process" just fine, thank you. And the notion that the bidder has a "responsibility" to receive the merchandise is pretty darned funny.
posted on March 2, 2002 06:17:39 PM new
masujoviga,
My statement of what a transaction is not an opinion. Any transaction MUST have those 7 parts to be complete. It is a fact, not an opinion. Other things can happen in the course of a transaction, but the transaction is not complete unless those items happen. I challenge you to prove otherwise. In response to your questions:
1)Why does the transaction end when the buyer receives the merchandise???
It doesn't have to end there. This is just the earliest point at which a transaction CAN end. It can actually be dragged out much longer (refunds, insurance, etc...)
2) What if the buyer refuses the merchandise yet does not want a refund? Does that mean its a non transaction???
No. If the buyer is able to refuse the merchandise that means that the merchandise has actually gotten to the buyer. That means that step 7 has been reached. (Note that as stated previously in question response 1 that the transaction can extend beyond step 7)
3) Is the buyer allowed to purchase an item as a gift and have it shipped elsewhere never technically receiving the merchandise? Does that make the transaction void?
This is a special circumstance. In this point the buyer's agent takes the bidders place in step 7. The transaction is still not completed until the merchandise is received (whether it is the bidder or a bidders agent)
4)Or better yet, since in your terms you state not responsible for lost packages, if the package is lost and thus never received, is this also a non transaction?
You are correct. This is technically not a completed transaction. No bidder would ever consider it to be so. At this point, the seller and the bidder would presumably enter into further communication. If the item is insured, the transaction would be completed when the Buyer received his insurance claim. If the item was not insured, then the buyer will likely leave negative feedback on the basis that the transaction was never completed. (completely justifiable in the bidders mind).
Notice how Logic proves that the transaction simply can not be completed until the buyer/buyer's agent receives (or has the option to receive) the merchandise or reimbursement. Your questions just add proof to that.
As for leaving positive feedback for when I've received negative feedback.... no, I have never done that. None of them communicated that there was a problem before they left their feedback. Had I been notified i would have worked to remedy the situation. As they did not contact me, I did not feel that they held up to their responsibilities as a bidder and I gave them negative feedbacks that I feel they deserved. However, I have posted positive feedback for bidders who have left nuetral feedback as they did deserve the positive comment and I deserved the nuetral.
posted on March 2, 2002 06:22:19 PM new
masujoviga
The end of a transaction is not an opinion, it is a fact..I merely said my definition, as in agreement with, not as in I MADE IT UP!
Rather than leave feedback to ALL by bidders, I email (take the time to) ALL my bidders when the item ships...which do you think is more important? A lot of buyers could give a rats rump about FB so why should I waste time writing it...if they do, I do...I did not obtain 1500 FB holding buyers hostage..they willing gave it and I politely responded..BY the BY, would you go to a store and presume to tell them how their store policy should be? Of course not, if you do not like the policy do not shop there..Well, if you do not like my auction policies..just don't bid...it is that simple..
As for posting this board...I rarely do but I always take time to read it at least once a week...cause I do not know it all, as some seem to, and I learn an awful lot from people on this board that has helped me learn how to do many different things concerning my business, find helpful sites, even find out when there is a free listing day or if fees are increasing..sort of like school, we should never stop learning...Have fun with your idealism and knowitallism and when it becomes a speed bump in your Ebay life, just remember you did it your way...
kiddo2
posted on March 2, 2002 06:35:44 PM new
There can be no logical dispute as to when the transaction as a whole ends. When the item is received by the buyer.
However, it can be argued -- and each can have their own opinion -- when the buyer's "side" of the transaction is completed. However, just because one "side" is complete does NOT mean the entire transaction is complete.
So, factually, the transaction does not end until both sides are complete.
posted on March 2, 2002 06:38:17 PM new
"A buyer fulfills his contract by sending money"
Nope, As they used to say at the ballpark,its not over till the last runner is in.
Do what you thinks works for you, thats fine.
But the day will come when you will see the other point of view.
posted on March 2, 2002 06:42:50 PM new
eauctionmgnt writes: My statement of what a transaction is not an opinion. Any transaction MUST have those 7 parts to be complete. It is a fact, not an opinion.
1) Seller lists item accurately
2) Seller Answers any questions about item
3) Seller sends out EOA notice
4) Bidder mails payment
5) Seller receives payment
6) Seller Ships item
7) Bidder receives item
Transaction END
Therefore should the buyer not have questions thus making Step 2 inapplicable, there cannot be a "transaction" because those MUST 7 steps have been reduced to 6.
Therefore since you use DC when shipping, once delivery is confirmed transaction is over. Your feedback should follow based on your FACTUAL definition of a transaction. Never mind that when the buyer opens it 2 days later its in a million pieces.
as for kiddo:
You began the thread by stating your opinion. I replied with mine. I did not mean to offend you. However, your responses to those that differ from your view manifests the likely response you will use if someone should cast the evil "neg" on you.
kiddo also writes: Rather than leave feedback to ALL by bidders, I email (take the time to) ALL my bidders when the item ships...which do you think is more important? A lot of buyers could give a rats rump about FB so why should I waste time writing it...
1) why are you writing about it here then?
2) does it really take that much time to go to post sale and click send feedback to all those that paid?
I am not asking you to change your policy not will I ask a retail store to change their policies. However, last time I was in a retail store, I do not recall the clerks waiting to smile and acknowledge me until I had smiled first!
posted on March 2, 2002 07:04:31 PM new
Heres a new one--bought widget from someone-paid by paypal-the guy sends a "reminder" if i was satisfied with the transaction to send in feedback-not once but twice!!I thought this was kind of tacky--but heres the kicker-i havent even recieved the widget yet!! BAWAAAHH
posted on March 2, 2002 07:09:42 PM new
A Seller should Never leave FB First because what if a buyer is Unreasonable,or of Questionable nature.It is the seller who must aleart others of this.
What if it is a shill buyer,just out to mar a sellers feedback.One must have some recourse.Weather it is a rival seller or just a crap bidder,One must protech your self and one of the ways is to leave an open avenue to communicate.
I can also think of a payment sent but I'm less then Happy with this,Look NO Item number or description of what you won.Should I leave a POS then.Oh you Shorted me shipping payment,Wow What kind of Feedback does that get.So lets be resonable,bidder needs to leave feedback first.
posted on March 2, 2002 07:12:06 PM new
I can also think of a payment sent but I'm less then Happy with this,Look NO Item number or description of what you won.Should I leave a POS then.Oh you Shorted me shipping payment,Wow What kind of Feedback does that get.So lets be resonable,bidder needs to leave feedback first.
posted on March 2, 2002 07:40:24 PM new
I am happy when I'm paid. So I leave feedback. If the buyer has a wet diaper tantrum afterwards, he's paid for the privilege to give feedback no matter how unfair it may seem to me at the time. I can always respond and put him on my blocked list if I do not wish to deal with him again.
Deadbeats are another story, but they usually get naru'd before long.
posted on March 2, 2002 07:44:05 PM new
masujoviga
Brick walls could not hear even if they had ears...probably because they are so THICK....nuf's nuf..good nite!
kiddo2
posted on March 2, 2002 07:51:10 PM new
Boy this one gets old fast It really isn't anyones concern how another leaves feedback. Get your system in order do it the same and consistently and then that is the correct way for YOU to do it. I do not care when, where how or why others leave me feedback and I sure won't be sending e-mails begging for it. My system is I send feedback the day I ship the items. I go to the Post Office everyday and post the feedback as soon as I get home, it's the way I have things set up and most convinient for me. I also send out a notice letting the buyer now that the item has been shipped at the same time. Probably avg about 20-30 pkgs a day and it doesnt take much time as long as I do it daily. Sometimes the buyers return feedback sometimes not. I have 8000 positives and 6 negs so I see no flaw with the way I do it. If others do it different thats fine by me and I won't chastise them on this board becaue they won't do it the way I do. Anyways lots of luck to you all my best feedback wishes go out to each of you :0
[ edited by tomyou on Mar 2, 2002 07:52 PM ]
posted on March 2, 2002 07:57:34 PM new
I guess I don't understand why people who feel one way try to argue the other is wrong. I've been on both sides of this one. I used to leave feedback immediately. Then, after some questionable feedback that I felt was undeserved, I have decided it works best for me to leave feedback AFTER the buyer has received their items. If leaving feedback immediately works for you, then great! What I've discovered is that leaving feedback after the buyer has received their item works better for me. I feel it may help to prevent negative feedback, because if I have not left feedback yet, they have to wonder if they leave an unjustified neg, they may get it back. If they do leave an unjustified neg, then they will get it back, and maybe they will think twice about it again next time...
posted on March 2, 2002 07:58:51 PM new
masujoviga
>>"so basically what we have is a retaliation policy, not a feedback policy."<<
There's a bit more to it than that. Some sellers won't leave feedback first to protect themselves from scammers.
A while back on Yahoo we had a buyer that refused to complete the transaction if we didn't promise to leave feedback the moment she paid. I checked her out and she had several negs on Yahoo and Ebay for demanding partial refunds for one reason or another. Note: in some cases she refused to return the item for a full refund. she said that only dishonest sellers don't leave feedback first.
I could smell a problem coming so we told her to keep her money and relisted the item.
We have 5 negs out of around 10,000 combined transactions on Yahoo and Ebay and only once have I ever retaliated. The jerk deserved it.
Edited to add: We don't really have a feedback policy, however, my wife says her policy is to leave feedback when she gest around to it. Lately it has just been easier to go down the list in our own profile and leave feedback.
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 2, 2002 08:30 PM ]
[ edited by outoftheblue on Mar 2, 2002 08:31 PM ]
posted on March 2, 2002 08:44:04 PM new
masujoviga,
I suppose its very convenient for your rebuttal that when you chose to quote my post you left out the part that said Step #2 did not always apply. While it IS a critical part of the transaction process, it does not always need to take place (if there are no questions, there is no need to respond). Bottom line, as many other posters have said.... Ebay says straight out that feedback should not be left until the transaction is completed. Logic shows the transaction is not completed until the Buyer receives the merchandise. To leave feedback beforehand is disregarding Ebays recommendation to leave feedback at the END of an auction. But hey.... like Tomyou says.... whatever works for you! Just be open-minded enough to underdstand that those sellers who wait for the transaction to be ended before leaving feedback are simply following Ebay's own policies more closely than you choose to.
posted on March 2, 2002 10:41:33 PM new
masujoviga is totally correct. If a buyer sends the money as stated in the terms and clears the bank and so on, then they have done there legal part. Any seller holding positive feedback because they do not want a negative is wrong. The buyer paid. What if the seller sent an item that wasn't correctly described or mispackaged. The buyer should not get penalized for the sellers misconduct. But yet that seller should get the negative.
eauctionmgnt states there are 7 steps in a transaction. Not true as far as a seller is concerned. Step seven does not apply to the seller, only the buyer. Once you have received payment and shipped the item, you are obliged to leave positive feedback as the buyer has done there part. You also state that the buyer is not done with there part of the transaction until they receive the item. This is true. What you fail to realize is that the sellers part of the transaction is done at step 6.
ijusthaveit, you are simply holding feedback hostage to protect yourself even in the case you might be in the wrong. It is always the responsibility of the seller to leave feedback first. If you get a neg in return, it is because you deserved it, period.
On a personal note, I always do what is right and leave feedback first or usually first. I check my feedback to left file a couple of times a week and always fill out the feedback on all of my bidders as needed. I do send a notice with the item asking a return feedback. If they choose not to leave it, that is their choice and I do not beg for it through e-mail. I also do not expect a person to e-mail me when they get there item, but I do want to know when they do not get it. You could call that step 8 although unusual, it does happen. Sellers that help out in those situations often get a positive feedback as well, even if it is giving a refund. I have a couple of those as well. In this case, the buyer still would deserve a positive feedback as they did do their part by sending payment. Holding feedback on a buyer because they did not get the item it wrong. It was not their fault they didn't get the item, but yet what I have read from many of the people posting here is they wouldn't give them the feedback because in their minds, the transaction isn't over. I hope that they are only a few with that bogus thought to the feedback system.
bp
posted on March 2, 2002 11:16:10 PM new
I don't know why anyone would read feedbacks anyway. Buyers who leave negatives and neutrals are the biggest liers and exaggerators in the world.
"Doesn't respond to my emails" means- Doesn't respond to my 35 emails over the weekend.
"Took forever to arrive" means- buyer had to wait ten days for his check to clear before item was sent.
"Not as described" means- buyer did not read listing or look at picture and rushed to bid without knowing what he was bidding on.
"Didn't receive item" means- buyer did not send payment.
I have stopped leaving positive feedbacks. I didn't want to stop because many good buyers work hard to obtain positive feedback, but when a buyer neg'd me after I accidently left her a positive, I swore I'd never leave a positive again for anyone.
People who ask me to leave them feedback I write them and tell them the transaction was excellent, but I don't support ebay's current fb system. Although I still neg those who neg me. Blatant liers need to be held in check. I am proud to see many of those I neg'd have quit ebay.
posted on March 2, 2002 11:22:37 PM new
"so basically what we have is a retaliation policy, not a feedback policy."
Sometimes I read bidders feedback and cancel their bid if I see something that signals a problem. I find sellers are honest with negative feedback and buyers are complete liers when it comes to negs, with a few exceptions. If sellers didn't "retaliate" how could I detect the problem bidder?
Especially over the past few mos with all the wacky kaka-popo brained NEWBIES descending!I now include the following line in my "SHIPPED" email:"Auctions should be fun! If you have any questions about your purchase after it arrives, PLEASE contact me! I check my feedback profile at least once/day and reciprocate immediately. I'm very grateful for all the kind comments over the past 2 years!" Has the added benefit of actually INCREASING the # of FBs I've been receiving lately!
Lately it has just been easier to go down the list in our own profile and leave feedback.