posted on August 24, 2002 01:10:26 PM new
This is a long story, but I'll give you the short version. I bought 1000 DVD's from a company for $2995.00. 1 month later I receive 2 boxes of videos and a box of jeans. He apologizes, and tells me to send them back (which I already did) and he'll refund my money. 3 weeks later he says he doesn't have the money and he'll make installments of approx $750.00 a week for 4 weeks. I signed an agreement that I wouldn't slander his name and he'll do these payments. I signed it beginning of July. First payment came and went with no money. He emailed me saying he'll give me the full amount by the end of July. End of July came and went with no payment. I have a relative who lives in his town, so he went on to dig up what he could on the company. I got the name of his soon to be ex-wife who says he has the money and she'll see what she could do. I received one money order for $750.00. Nothing else. I received an email from him stating I'll get paid in full by the end of August (I'm not holding my breath). I emailed him yesterday stating I have a lawyer lined up and if I don't receive the money by labor day that I would take legal action. I get an email back from him stating he has no money and business is slow and he offered me merchandise instead (curtains, electronis, or misc. pallets)- I really don't trust him to buy more merchandise from him. What would you do?
posted on August 24, 2002 02:43:01 PM new
Be polite, but tell him in no certain terms will you accept anything but a full refund. You bought the DVD's in good faith, and paid him. He didn't come through and now he MUST pay you back. Tell him that there are places that will loan money and that is where he should go to get your refund. Good Luck.
posted on August 24, 2002 03:03:10 PM new
You are thinking of this as a civil problem (lawyer) when, in fact, it may well be a criminal problem.
You might run the idea of filing postal fraud charges, or theft and other assorted criminal charges with a law enforement agency (yours or his - or even the FBI, if the theft crossed state lines), by him and see if he "finds" some money.
As far as his "timely" promises: If he makes good, fine - you'll drop the charges. But the delay is hurting your case.
posted on August 24, 2002 03:31:45 PM new
Pressing criminal charges won't get your $$ back. You have to pursue the civil charges. You may have to put a lien on everything he has. BUT you may be too late for that. If he is in such bad shape, you may have to stand in line to collect. Remember allthe criminal charges can do is fine him or put him the jug, not get your money back. I hav had the experience of trying to collect on seveeral deadbeats in the past. Depending on your state laws, you may be able to use Small Claims Court.
posted on August 24, 2002 03:34:10 PM new
I hula does he live in the same state you do? or within driving distance? Seems to me if he does the suggestion of small claims court would be the way to go. It isn't the end of August yet so maybe he will come through with a few more dollars. I hope so for your sake
posted on August 24, 2002 03:52:50 PM new
Filing criminal charges does not rule out civil action.
And as for a criminal charge not getting your money back, that is not necessarily true either. Frequently a judge will allow a probated or adjudicated sentence conditional to the offender's making financial restitution to the victim. And if the experience my son had with the punk who broke into his truck and stole his sound system is any indicator, it is a hundred times more enforceable than a civil judgment.
The threat of a civil suit might not faze him at all, under the circumstances - an impending divorce, etc. (which is not to imply that it should be ruled out, if all else fails.)
But be all that as it may, what I actually said was to run the idea of filing criminal charges by him to see if it might help him "find" some money, and get Ihula some immediate relief - possibly without having to go through the process of filing either criminal charges or a civil suit.
posted on August 24, 2002 08:15:30 PM new
Thanks for all the advise. Still not exactly sure what to do. I'm in Wisconsin and he's in California, so that complicates things. I thought of just going and picking out the pallets myself, and I would do that if we were closer, but this isn't very convenient.
posted on August 24, 2002 08:23:25 PM new
Whenever you buy something over the internet in an amount you can't afford to lose, always pay by credit card. If they do not take credit cards, don't buy.
posted on August 24, 2002 08:45:38 PM new
At this point, you're out about $2250.00. This falls into the area where it is not economically feasible to hire a lawyer and pursue a civil action. His fees would eat up anything recovered, if he wins the case. If not, you're out another bundle in legal fees. Besides, it would have to be a Calif. licensed attorney. Small claims would involve traveling to California at least once and possibly more if he knows how to work the system, which most crooks do. This leaves either a collection agency (which may charge 1/3 to 1/2 of what they recover) or a criminal complaint. Usually the threat of a criminal action will cause them to jar loose with some cash. If not, the District Attorney can request restitution when they prosecute him. You will also be able to use all the facts uncovered in the criminal case in any future civil case you may pursue. The services of the DA in a criminal case won't cost you anything. If they can't get it out of him, we California taxpayers will pick up the tab. The bottom line? Call the cops and raise hell.
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
posted on August 24, 2002 09:13:10 PM new
If the seller should win the case, the buyer would just be o-u-t period.
But if the buyer should win the case, the judgment would probably include her/his legal fees, and any other expenses involved (travel, loss of work/income, etc.).
But again...collecting.....
As I've said twice before, I'd rattle his cage with threats of criminal charges, not a letter from a lawyer.
One final thought: If he is in the middle of a divorce, assets could be frozen, etc. pending a final dissolution of property.
posted on August 24, 2002 09:27:29 PM new
Isn't the soon to be ex-wife involved in this also. She is not an ex yet. In Wisconsin everything is no fault so she would be liabel for 50% of it. I don't know what the law in CA would be.
posted on August 24, 2002 09:50:40 PM new
In Texas, one spouse is as liable as the other for any debts incurred jointly...until and unless a judge says differently. Matters of debt (who is responsible for what) are spelled out in the divorce, usually as part of the property settlement.
For instance, she may get her car and their joint equity in it as her sole property, but he may have to finish paying for it...but she might be ordered to pay her charge cards (which he is otherwise equally liable for, etc.
posted on August 24, 2002 10:47:55 PM new
I have actually spoken to the soon to be ex-wife. My uncle who lives in the same city tracked her down and called her (and apparently scared her) and then I also talked to her (he wasn't able to find the owner of the company in person). Her name was on the bank account that the wire transfer went through, so we told her she is also responsible. She is the one that convinced him to give me $750.00. But I have since emailed her and she says she keeps bothering her ex, but he's not budging. I am going to try not to involve my uncle anymore, although I think he would help if I asked.
posted on August 24, 2002 11:10:32 PM new
gc2,
It works just about the same way in California. This will go into the hopper as another joint debt and be a part of the settlement in the dissolution of marriage case. (There is no such thing as divorce in California) ihula's best bet is to try to get as much as she can before the dissolution petition is filed. A criminal complaint is the quickest way to do this. Otherwise, she will have to take a number and stand in line with everyone else, which could include such unsavory characters as the IRS, Board of Equalization, family support, local tax assessor, etc. I can guarantee you one thing, if there is a domestic seperation looming in the future, she has to strike now, and strike hard, or kiss the money goodbye.
edited to add: Is this seller by chance located in Los Angeles county?
The light at the end of the tunnel will turn out to be an oncoming train.
[ edited by sparkz on Aug 24, 2002 11:16 PM ]
posted on August 25, 2002 04:53:38 AM new
what about small claims court? I know that in Ohio you can even garnish their wages once you have won the judgement.
posted on August 25, 2002 06:01:32 AM new
Sparkz, in my very first post to this thread, I advised thinking in terms of criminal, rather than civil, charges - and acting accordingly.
In reference to the wire transfer: Is the estranged wife aware that she could be facing criminal charges, too?
I think I'd make sure she at least understood....
One of the things you always have to remember in a divorce (or dissolution of marriage, to put it more simply) is the old saying "When poverty knocks at the door, love creeps out the window."
The parties to a divorce (or a DOM - I kinda like that - it has a nice ring to it) always and inevitably blame their financial woes on the fact of the separation or divorce (or DOM!), and (mostly) on each other - when in actuality (if the truth were known) the financial problems were already there, and frequently were a major factor in the break-up.
posted on August 25, 2002 07:06:33 AM new
He's in Fresno, and he offered to have my "friend" (he doesn't know it's my uncle) come and look at merchandise, but I don't want to put that kind of responsibility on my uncle because he doesn't know what to look for. My uncle said he'd get involved originally because he thought maybe seeing someone in person that actually knows me may be enough to jar a check out of this guy. Hey, if JACKSWEBB is reading this...are you a big and tough looking guy? Maybe he can bring his casket with him
On a more serious note...how would you word an email to this guy saying that you changed your mind about the lawyer and your going to pursue legal actions.
Also my cousin was just elected the new tax assessor out there - but I can't remember if it's for Los Angeles or Fresno county.
Fresno isn't too terribly far from L.A. I think maybe 3-4 hours. (Thankfully, I moved from L.A. in 1975.)
I have cousins in the area but they're all complete dingbats. LOL If your cousin is in Fresno and is a normal person maybe he/she could round up somebody to help out.
GC2 mentioned postal fraud. From other threads I've read, this sounds like he's right. Have you contacted the post office?
The link below is for California Small Claims Court info. Hopefully I did it right...
posted on August 25, 2002 07:36:44 AM new
Thanks for the link. He shipped it UPS, so we're going to talk with our UPS lady on Monday. If he shipped it freight (which is how I thought it would arrive) I wonder if this would still hold true. One of the problems with suing him is that my uncle who did all my "investigative" work says he really doesn't exist. I gave him the company name and address (I had 2 addresses) and the owners name. I have the owners name as George, but then his ex-wife says his name is Juan (so george may be his middle name). He went to one of the addresses I gave him and it's a little 4X4 office with one person behind the phone. The door said a different company, but I told him that was the company name where I wired the money too (apparently they had 2 company's going and that name is the one the wife took over). The other address didn't exist, but there were warehouses behind the building - so he assumes that it's his warehouse.
posted on August 25, 2002 07:42:20 AM new
This is beginning to sound like a scam. Call the police and let them handle it. If you try to sue civily, you have to prove everything and investigate everything.
posted on August 25, 2002 08:03:34 AM new
Just to clarify: When I mentioned postal fraud I did not know that 1) payment was made via wire transfer, nor that 2) shipment had been made via UPS. Unless the guy solicited through the mail, I don't see where USPS would get involved with it.
You might try a bluff, and tell him and her that you have talked to your local police department, and they have advised you that you have grounds for filing criminal charges, and although they (your local police) cannot pursue it, since it is interstate, they will assist you in contacting the proper FBI person for your area. (And make that 'person' a 'field agent'...yeah)
But being the nice person you are, you told your police ....chief?...yeah, let's go ahead and make him the chief (in for a penny, in for a pound)...that you wanted to think about it until ----- (pick a date, but don't wait too long), in hopes that it wouldn't have to come to that.
(Laugh, Jack - I know you can take a little ribbing - and yes, you owe me one now, and yes, I know that payback's hell - but I just couldn't resist!)
posted on August 25, 2002 08:24:34 AM new
In an early post you stated there was an agreement you signed in which he agreed to pay weekly installments if you would not slander him.
What is the name of the person and the company that signed it. That is who you should go after.
I also assume you have done due diligence to see if there is money in the bank account that your money was wired to.
Frankly, I think this deal sounds like all your talk of doing something, threats etc. won't mean diddly to the con artist.
Only serious action that could end them in jail will get them to take you seriously. Time for the local police, criminal charges, etc.
Failing that, write it off and fuggedaboutit. You aren't gonna see a penny more in my opinion.
Truth be told, all the guy needs to do is file for Chapter 7 nkfrupty to get you off his back.
By the way, did you say $3 per DVD? Sounds too good to be true to me, as the saying goes. Guess it was, too.
posted on August 25, 2002 08:54:38 AM new
I also posted this on the OTWA board, and they said it's not a criminal manner for someone to be "forgetful" in paying you money that he doesn't have. Here's what he said:
You will get nowhere claiming a criminal component and risk stepping over the line yourself... it's generally considered "misuse of process" (a criminal offence in itself) in many states IF the creditor does anything along the lines of threatening "Pay me or I'll have you arrested." Criminality *requires* proof of intent, advance intent. Somebody simply being continuously irresponsible, forgetful, and/or crazy is a complete alibi for accusation of a criminal offence. All the deadbeat has to do is show a "reasonable doubt" that he knowingly intended to defraud all the way along.
The wire transfer went into the bank that they both technically had the account in, even if she says she didn't know about it. As far as the agreement, he typed his name in the approrpriate spot and I signed it and faxed it to him. When I said are you going to sign it and send it back to me his only response was "you have my word". As should have known then....but hindsight....
There are many companys that sell DVD's for under $3.00, I went with him because he promised some popular titles mixed in with the others.
posted on August 25, 2002 09:04:33 AM new
Oh, and no...I didn't see if he had money in that bank. If I call the bank that the money was transferred to will they give me that information?
posted on August 25, 2002 09:17:39 AM new
I think you need some better advice. As has been suggested, begin by talking to some police department somewhere.
Technically, you are not a creditor; it appears you are the victim of a scam - and scams are intentional - and also slightly illegal!
It isn't like you issued him an unsecured credit card, and now his payments are delinquent.
Since you are not a creditor, per se, then the laws (which we are all aware of) regulating collection methods do not apply.
We can all speculate 'til the cows come home - on this board or one hundred more, but the best advice we have given you has been to get some good advice.
posted on August 25, 2002 09:20:56 AM new
Any transactions made useing US mail can be prosecuted by dealing directly with the US Postal Service. I thnk eBay may even have a link to that site but not sure. I used it once on a non-complying seller and received my item within a month of lodging the complaint with the US Postal Service.
