posted on August 17, 2003 08:26:54 PM new
I shipped three items to a buyer. They opted out of taking insurance. I have proof that I shipped the items with delivery confirmation but they never made it to the buyer. She's been very nasty thus far. DO I stickk to ehat my auctions say that the seller not responsible for items lost in the mail or do I cut my losses and offer a refund? I know I will get negged and I feel maybe I'll get a neg even if I do the nice thing for the customer.
posted on August 17, 2003 08:33:59 PM new
Remind her that you have confirmation and you will have the PO put a trace on it. Also mention that she should check carefully to make sure someone in the house didn't misplace it as the PO frowns on mail fraud.
Just be calm amd factual and DO NOT give in to nasty demands. She may not neg because she knows you'll neg her right back. You might want to check her FB and the FB she's left for others to see if this is a pattern.
The PO does screw up but this is kind of fishy. Most buyers don't get nasty right off the bat.
Editied to say block her now so she can't mess with any other auctions.
Please keep us posted.
[ edited by jensmome on Aug 17, 2003 08:35 PM ]
posted on August 17, 2003 08:39:40 PM new
Jensmome - notice that there was delivery confirmation engaged, but no confirmation of delivery... This really is an insurance issue - IMHO...
Junebug27,
I've seen a lot of sellers say they are not responsible if a buyer doesn't pay for insurance. However, you are indeed responsible - especially if they've paid through PayPal or with a credit card.
Consider this example:
You call a company you've seen an advertisement for - decide to purchase their widget - and they take your money, promising to ship your item in short order. They say: "For an extra $1.30, we promise that if you don't get your widget, we'll refund your money or ship you another one..."
You wait a week and nothing shows up. Two weeks pass and you call the company and hear: "Sorry, we did mail it. Sam took it with him to the post office and handed it to the clerk himself. It's too bad you didn't pay us that $1.30, huh? Sorry."
I don't know about you, but I'd want to reach through the phone and slap them! I paid for something I didn't receive.
In short, the only right thing to do is to insure your delivery if you don't want to lose your cost of the item. If you can convince the buyer to pay for the insurance, you're one step ahead. If you ship something and it gets lost, then shame on you for not returning their money - especially if you can't confirm delivery.
[ edited by TheFamilyBiz on Aug 17, 2003 08:41 PM ]
posted on August 17, 2003 08:50:58 PM new
Best to include insurance in your s/h charge to the bidder. If you want to avoid any future problems that is the only way to go.
Never give them a choice in this matter!
have proof that I shipped the items with delivery confirmation but they never made it to the buyer.
Check with the post office if it shows delivered or not. How do you know the items never made it? Most people do not flip out right off the bat, so I get the feeling that something is not right here.
My feeling is that if they refused insurance then they have no right to expect the benefit of insurance if they where to cheap to pay for it.
posted on August 17, 2003 08:57:49 PM new
junebug27, yes, the timing of the anger is indeed suspicious. Some crooks will use different tactics to intimidate the seller. One is to use their "anger" to cause the seller to back down. Or the "threat" to post a neg MYTH: sellers are afraid of negs and will do whatever to avoid receiving one.
Don't let this alleged intimidation cause you to lose focus on the issue.
I'm not a legal expert on the terms of service of not being responsible for shipment, but what I do know is that the bigger shipping companies as TheFamilyBiz mentioned, can absorb the cost. You can't. Or can you? If you're like me, you can't as Sears, Amazon, Wal Mart etc.
Just stick to your guns, be pleasant as possible and be sure to dot your i's and cross your t's.
I recently had a bidder "accuse" me of threatening him. I emailed back stating that I was only re-stating my terms of service which the bidder was trying to get me to bend. I was refusing to bend my terms of service. Apparently, it was a threat. Go figure. They didn't think it was threat when they placed their bid.
posted on August 17, 2003 08:58:25 PM new
Missed the unengaged. The PO probably won't investigate until some long period of time has elasped.
I understand what FamilyBiz is saying but I still wouldn't cave right away. You didn't say how long it's been or how far and how it was sent.
Mail delivery was disrupted by the blackout.
posted on August 17, 2003 09:00:01 PM new
I would tell them that the only thing you can do is wait and have the post office do a trace on it. You have to wait 3 weeks after it is mailed before they will start a trace.
If they do a chargeback, you won't be out any more than if you just refund and it will probably show on there record at paypal if they do it a lot.
An honest person wouldn't do a chargeback after not purchasing insurance.
Don't forget the thousands and thousands of items that the USPS had auctioned off under FOUR user ids that were in the lost and found. Items that weren't delivered!
posted on August 17, 2003 09:10:45 PM new
Thanks to all-I was a little upset after Family Biz response, I never said that I wasn't considering refunding the money-I will never be ashamed of myself-Anyways, I sent it out on the 17th of July, with Stamps.com-USPS-I have probably sent 1,000 packages and never had one lost to date. I don's know how e tracking works but I honestly do not think the customer recieved it or it would tell me that delivery was confirmed. aIt only tells me that that my local PO recieved Electronic Notification but delvery wanst made. So that looks like a lost in the mail to me. Can they track this package down somehow?
Thanks Again All
p.s. I am in NY but the blackout was weeks after package sent
posted on August 17, 2003 09:48:27 PM new
Junebug27,
Didn't mean to upset you or imply that you wouldn't do what was "right." I got the idea that you are a very concientious seller because you came here and asked what our opinions were - and that's to be commended, absolutely.
I was just trying to get everyone to consider the buyer from a positive perspective vs. an evil, deadbeat one. Others have much more transaction experience than I and can attest to the numbers of deadbeats vs. honest buyers. I just tried to look at things as if I were on the other end.
Not related to shipping, but customer service and pertinent to the discussion ---
I recently had a buyer who told me, politely, that something was wrong with the item I shipped to him. If I had my "negative" hat on, I would think he was trying to rip me off and trying to get another one for nothing. I could have just said: "Sorry. Contact the manufacturer. There's a 3 year warranty on it..." But would you like to get that response? Again, shame on any seller who takes that attitude. If you can't afford to do what's right, then stop inviting people to purchase from you. Or - put a warning on your auctions to alert the public that their entire transaction is at their own risk.
Instead, I took his polite notification as an opportunity to show how much we care for our clients.
I asked him to mail the item back - which he promptly did via USPS Priority at a cost of $3.85 to him. When it came back, yes, it did have a malfunction and it's not anything he could have done to it...
Now, he didn't ask for ANYTHING and put a lot of trust in me in the process. What he got, was a replacement, a short apology letter, and a check for $3.85 to cover the cost of his return postage. We only make about $6.00 in profit on the item, so it actually cost me $1.70 for this transaction - including return shipping fees and the refund check. But, I feel good about making sure I did right by my customer.
Wayne
Trying to Make a Difference - One Satisfied Customer at a Time....
posted on August 17, 2003 09:51:27 PM newDon't forget the thousands and thousands of items that the USPS had auctioned off under FOUR user ids that were in the lost and found. Items that weren't delivered!
I think the Post Office gave up the ghost on selling that lost stuff on ebay a long time ago. Too expensive was their reason.
If a seller states in their auction that insurance is optional and lost items are not their responsibility then why would they get upset at a rare lost item? When a seller places that disclaimer and the buyer opts out of the insurance ( and the seller can prove the PO lost it via a DC # ) and then the event of the lost package occurs, wasn't the the entire reason for the dislaimer? The seller may get a negative but that's part of the process.
-------------- sig file ----------- He who angers you controls you
posted on August 17, 2003 10:09:33 PM new
"I think the Post Office gave up the ghost on selling that lost stuff on ebay a long time ago. Too expensive was their reason."
Or people like here at AW/Vendio made fun of them. Or maybe it was because people were leaving negs for shipping problems???? When in fact, the reason the item was up for sale was because of shipping problems????
Each USPS id user had a good number of negs. Who'd want to buy from the USPS when they were getting negs for bad shipping!
Maybe they found out like many do, that it's not that easy to sell on eBay.
Back when USPS first started selling on eBay, there was one thread in particular that many AW posters were making fun of the USPS auctions. There were threads after that, but I remember the first thread. What a blast.
posted on August 17, 2003 10:09:34 PM new
I guess I just believe you can't opt out of responsibility. But that's what's great about this business. We can each have our own design to our businesses.
Just wouldn't get to sleep if I thought I screwed my customers (not implying that you are). Why not build it into your shipping costs (since we're only talking about $1.30 if you buy it from the USPS) for up to $50.00 - and boast about the added feature of your auctions having "Insurance Included?"
That's a serious question and I'd appreciate your opinions, because I'm open to hearing additional thoughts on it.
Wayne
Trying to Make a Difference - One Satisfied Customer at a Time....
posted on August 17, 2003 10:14:03 PM new
TheFamilyBiz imo I think it all depends on what the law states. I don't think we have any attorneys amongst us who have the knowledge, experience nor the excess to the law to give sound advise.
It's like return policies. By law, brick and mortar stores aren't required to accept returned items, but they do because it helps with public relations. To provide customer service which encourages the patrons to come back.
posted on August 17, 2003 10:23:03 PM new
And, those B&M companies build the cost of those returns into the price of items on their shelves. They also have to factor in those who steal from them (both shoplifters and employees).
If it's not about the law (and you're right - it depends on which state you're in and maybe which state your customer is in), it is all about PR and building a client base or even a reputation for treating your customers - right? Those sellers who don't care about that, actually help those of us who do - except when it turns off a buyer and they don't return to eBay altogether and they can't see that other sellers are better than that...
Trying to Make a Difference - One Satisfied Customer at a Time....
posted on August 17, 2003 10:38:12 PM new
TheFamilyBiz,
If you won an auction and were offered insurance, would you buy it? If you didn't then the post office loses it, would you do a charge-back even if you were given proof that it was mailed?
posted on August 17, 2003 10:52:03 PM new
When you receive the status of a package "electronic notification received..." it means that stamps.com notified the PO to expect the package to be presented to them but it has never been physically scanned into the system. Every parcel I mail is scanned in my presence, until it is the eDC does not constitute proof of mailing.
Customer emailed me one week that they liked the item and wished more, within 10 days they were claiming non-receipt of the item. I forwarded a copy of their email, they claimed they had me confused with another dealer. Many buyers have so many deals going and such poor record keeping they have no idea which end is up.
The PO also misdelivers a small percentage of mail, items are stolen from the box after delivery, and family members misplace a small percentage.
I ship approx 10,000 separate parcels per year. I get around 4 or 5 claims of non-delivery and believe possibly 2 or three are valid. If uninsured I offer a credit of the full amount against a future purchase of 200% of the amount with the insistence that they opt for insurance. I offer insurance and recommend insurance at the PO rates. Everything I ship has eDC and they are scanned daily (I don't throw them in the mailbox I stand at the counter)
posted on August 17, 2003 10:57:27 PM newI think the Post Office gave up the ghost on selling that lost stuff on ebay a long time ago. Too expensive was their reason.
posted on August 17, 2003 11:00:26 PM new
How do you do a chargeback if the seller has proof that the post office lost the package? You might get a temporary chargeback but the ensuing investigation will probably result in a judgement against the buyer.
What good is the tuff crap if your item gets lost disclaimers if the buyer can get their money back?
I'm like Tom, thousands of packages sent through the mails and none lost. ( maybe one or two actually ) I fully refund the buyers money on items less than $10 and block them from future bidding in case they are scamming in the very rare cases where they claim the item is lost. I make them wait the 30 days though. If it was an expensive item over $25 I always pay for the insurance because I don't want to eat that package or have to tell them they are eating it. Those are the only packages that I insure. I do not offer insurance on items under $25, I'll risk it rather than saddle the buyer with an unneccessary $1.30 fee.
-------------- sig file ----------- He who angers you controls you
posted on August 18, 2003 12:11:49 AM new
AuctionAce,
My feelings exactly! Those darn strong disclaimers aren't worth the paper they're printed on. Most laws are based on common sense. If someone pays you, and you "try" to get them something, you aren't negligent. However, my limited legal experience does tell me that this is a contract to buy something. If I pay you, you are obligated to deliver something to me. You can't have a defense of: "Well I tried. I can't help they didn't buy insurance."
Because you choose an uninsured method and they don't deliver on their contract to you, you are held liable for their actions and the most simple of remedies is a refund.
I'd like to hear if anyone has any experience they can share where they have offered insurance, the buyer doesn't pay for it and the seller doesn't either, and the package is lost in transit. I think we could learn something from all of this.
Sappington,
Fortunately, I haven't had the need to do a chargeback as I do my homework before buying from a seller. I only deal with those who have stellar reputations (and the only way now, Jack, is through the feedback system, unfortunately). I also check to see how they handle any complaints they've had.
You really have to play detective and be a good judge of character with the little information you can get.
If a seller gets negged for something silly, that doesn't count. If it's retaliatory, that doesn't count either. Now, when it looks like a legitimate complaint, I pay attention to the response from the seller. If it sounds like they're "real" people and care about being fair, then I'd buy from them.
Now, I've also experienced the other extreme. Bought something from a seller whose feedback was replete with numerous "quick shipping" type comments. The item was paid for with PayPal within minutes of purchase. Waited for about 7 days - no contact from the seller, nothing in the mail... I e-mailed asking if they had seen the payment and still nothing... 12 days go by... I get a response that says it should be there by day 15... I respond that I was hoping to have it by atleast day 15. She promised to refund all my money if it wasn't there in time. It wasn't, but it arrived on day 16.
Now, I thought it was mighty nice of her to make that offer, but a pretty stupid business decision. So, I offered a compromise and said if she wanted to make some kind of gesture acknowledging the long delay, how about a partial refund. I didn't want her to lose any of her costs, but a gesture of goodwill would go a long way especially since there was no contact for so long.
Well, she said it was too complicated to make a partial refund, so she refunded the whole thing! Now, I felt guilty! So, her offer of goodwill actually backfired. You have to be careful about allowing someone to give and get. I did purchase from her after that, trying to make sure she gets enough of a profit from those purchases to cover that very generous refund she made. (BTW, it was only $8.00 and I didn't take out insurance and didn't make any threats that I would neg her if she didn't cough up a refund... Just wanted to know if everything was okay...)
Trying to Make a Difference - One Satisfied Customer at a Time....
[ edited by TheFamilyBiz on Aug 18, 2003 12:18 AM ]
posted on August 18, 2003 08:02:46 AM new
Thanks all- I am going to refund the money and take my losses. Your input has been great. In the end, although the buyer has been an absolute terror, I want to maintain my excellent feedback. I have been able to make about 600 hundred people happy and have shipped out many more than that too repeat customers, without too many problems. The worst besides the one bounced check which I couldnt recover any fees for. It is very interesting to see what view other sellers take on this issue and the input has been terrific. I am fairly new here and I enjoy reading all the posts.
posted on August 18, 2003 08:21:45 AM new
I ALWAYS insure thru USPS. It's right in my TOS. If the buyer doesn't like it, then he doesn't have to bid. In well over 1,000 auctions, I've only had one claim for non-delivery.
There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."
posted on August 18, 2003 08:41:07 AM new
I won't get into the ethics or business sense behind the questions to insure or not and self-insurance here, as there have been very long conversations about it in other threads.
But, I have shipped thousands of packages and what I decided to do was just add a fifty cent handling charge to everything.
Now, if something is over $20 I pay insurance (I know that is not enough to cover insurance, but the fifty cents from three packages will be and most are under that amount). If it is under that and should get lost I have plenty of money saved from not insuring to cover any losses.
I can refund promptly, my customers are happy, and I don't have to worry about it.
Edited to add:
I also decided long ago that you couldn't just shrug off responsibility with a blanket statement. If something doesn't arrive, or the customer says something doesn't arrive I felt I had to refund. So, back in 1998 I decided to start adding the fee.
[ edited by lindajean on Aug 18, 2003 08:43 AM ]
posted on August 18, 2003 06:10:29 PM new
Thanks, Lindajean. You and I are on the same track.
As a matter of fact, I just received a note from the customer I mentioned replacing his defective item. I'll quote him here after explaining that my motto is:
The test of your character doesn't happen when things are running along smoothly. Your character is tested only when you hit that unexpected bump in the road. How you deal with it is what counts.
My customer who received his replacement and a refund of his shipping costs for return wrote the following on the bottom of the "Apology Note" I sent with the replacement:
I couldn't be more pleased with your customer service. Thank you for taking care of this problem in such a quick, professional manner. This is exactly the level of service I strive to offer my customers.
(signature)
It doesn't happen that often so it shouldn't be that difficult to stand up and do what's right.
Wayne
Trying to Make a Difference - One Satisfied Customer at a Time....
Edited to add emphasis to the "motto."
[ edited by TheFamilyBiz on Aug 18, 2003 06:12 PM ]
posted on August 18, 2003 06:35:42 PM new
auctionace said-
How do you do a chargeback if the seller has proof that the post office lost the package? //////////////////
auctionace,someone said you are not really much of an ace!
credit card company does not care if post office lost the package,as far as they are concerned ,their customer did not receive the package so the seller does not deserve the money.
the seller will lose the chargeback!!
-sig file -------They may have ginsu knife,but we have DING KING!!!!
posted on August 18, 2003 07:31:11 PM new
Ace as usual is wrong. The seller is responsible for the parcel until it is delivered, unless insurance is taken out. Then the seller is still responsible to make sure the buyer get's their money back. If the parcel is not delivered, the buyer gets their money back. All credit card companies and PayPal will back the buyer in this case.
As far as the original post goes, did you e-mail the tracking number to the buyer? If so, when? If not. Why not?
I always sent the tracking number to my buyers so they can track the packages. I even give them a link so they can track it online. Then if a package is misdirected, they can see that and won't give me any of those nasty e-mails. I often will track some of the packages just to see how reliable the carriers have been. I do see that UPS does misdirect about 2% of the packages I send, but all do make it eventually. And because I send the tracking number, I don't get the nasty where is my package e-mail. I can't say for sure, but I would guess of those that are misdirected, my buyers are calling UPS or the PO direct with the number to ask, where and when will they get it.
The best part is, in over 4 years of selling on ebay, yahoo ect, I have never had to track a lost package even though I know some have been misdirected.
posted on August 18, 2003 09:13:54 PM new
Hi My helpful advise.
When I have a buyer, and they have not received their package in the time they should have.They send me a email to tell me is has not been delivered yet ??? what are you going to do.
This is what I do and I do it every time.
#1 I send them and email, telling them to check with the PO and the delivery person.I give them a description of the package.I also spell out to them the mailing address I used and my return address.I do let them know that I care and I will look in to it, and check at my PO.I also use eDC on every package I ship, so I will send them the copy of that, with a link to the web page to check it out for themselves.
I tell them,I am unable to give a refund or give a replacement until the PO has time to look for the package and I will be filing a lost package report with them at the 30 day mark, and it is a form that they will have to sign, stating that they did not receive the package as of yet.
The very NEXT morning after getting their email for "where's my package"??
#2 I call their PO in their town, and I speak to a manager and I also speak to the delivery person, and find out if they can recall any thing, and to keep an eye out for the package.I will call once a week to let them know "I still waiting for it to be delivered."
#3 In the mean time, I keep in touch with the buyer and letting them know I have not forgotten about them and am still working on it.
Bottom line. It keeps the buyer happy knowing that you are doing something, and it also lets the PO know that you are keeping them on their toes. and it does help.
I just had one here in may.This buyer I think was honest...... Called the PO and they had no record of it, keep in touch with the buyer ect ect... At the 30 day mark, I filed the lost package report, and sent a note to the buyer that I had done so. The buyer was pretty good about it. A few days later,
"My package came in todays mail" Great I said.Kept the PO hoping....
I have also had a few buyers that soon as they found out I talked with the delivery person,"oh ! I got my package today in the mail" Wonderful.......or they find out they have to sign the "lost package" report..
Don't be so quick to give a refund.The PO doesn't and alot of other company's also. Wait it out, and I am sure the package will get delivered....99.9% sure any how.
If it doesn't, I'll send a replacement or refund the bid amount.
