posted on November 15, 2003 11:06:02 AM new
This is the time of season to be on the look out for fraud. Here are a few tips to avoid fraud and/or chargebacks:
1) DO NOT ship to unconfirmed addresses. Paypal will not protect you if the bidder says they never received the item or attempt a chargeback. It does not matter whether you have delivery confirmation with a signature or not. Paypal will NOT protect you. You can put a block on unconfirmed payments.
2) DO NOT accept Paypal from International bidders. Paypal will not protect you if they make any claims or chargebacks no matter how much proof you have that it was shipped and delivered. USE Bidpay or accept payment by mail. You can put a block on unconfirmed or International PP payments.
3) USE DELIVERY CONFIRMATION FOR EVERYTHING!!! DC is free if you use the www.usps.com website to do labels, or Stamps.com or any other online stamp business. This is your proof of delivery no matter what! Yes, the post office can misdeliver a package and show it as delivered on their website. This in not the sellers problem. If the buyer was concerned about the package getting lost, then they should buy Insurance.
Stamps.com just added an insurance feature to their shipping system. I have used it and I will tell you this... It saves a ton of time, especially during the holidays. I do not have to wait in line to ship things, and the insurance is less expensive than what the Post Office offers. I have yet to make a claim, but it is insured and their coverage is similar to the post office.
I am only posting this so that sellers can learn from my personal experience. Just like sex, PROTECT YOURSELF!!!!
[ edited by rustygumbo on Nov 15, 2003 11:06 AM ]
posted on November 15, 2003 01:42:38 PM new
These are good tips Rusty. However the international bidder one is a bit harsh. I am aware that paypal does not cover international payments. I think though that a quick look at the bidder's feedback will let you know whether they are a risk or not. I am in Australia and it very frustrating that some sellers do not ship here even with my excellent feedback. Of course that is their decision so I abide by their rules. Just do not tar all overseas bidders with the one broad brush.
Regards,
Adrian
posted on November 15, 2003 09:37:41 PM newThis is your proof of delivery no matter what!
Not quite. If your item has a purchase price over a certain amount (I think its $250 but not positive at the moment) simply delivery confirmation will not cover you. You must have a signature confirmation.
My new terms for PayPal unconfirmed and paypay international payments are as follows:
For all payments paid via PayPal that come from an unconfirmed address or international address will have a 32 day waiting period for funds to clear.
The reason is paypal has a 30 day chargeback policy. After 30 days it cannot be charged back and is now safe funds for the seller. This policy is similar to accepting personal checks.
posted on November 16, 2003 10:55:00 AM new
stonecold,
i believe the amount is 200 dollars,signature receipt and dc are both required.
your 32 days policy could get you into trouble,no one wants to wait 32 plus days to receive their merchandise,FTC said mail order should be shipped within 30 days after payment is received.
your buyer could file chargeback with his cc company within 2-3 months.
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on November 16, 2003 11:47:46 AM new
i dont think seller terms of sale policy can override FTC rule which said all mail orders should be filled and shipped within 30 days after payment is received.
you should just refuse their payment and ask them either to confirm their address or send you money order/check or use bidpay.
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on November 16, 2003 01:09:26 PM new
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the heads up on bidpay. I accept bidpay payments but haven't used them to pay for an auction in ages so I wasn't aware of the price change.
Stop, you are so right! there is no way on earth that I would wait 30 days for my order to be shipped after paying with paypal. And you are also right that a chargeback from the CC can be a long time after the sale. My bank told me up to 6 months.
I believe that if someone is going to make a big enough effort they will scam you eventually. So I look at the feedback both to and from the buyer and weigh up the risk from there. If they have a bunch of negs for non payment or chargebacks, I do not offer paypal. Otherwise I am happy to take a chance on them. All of my international parcels are insured so if they do not arrive I will still be paid.
Regards,
Adrian
posted on November 16, 2003 07:28:17 PM new
I have to agree that 32 days is over the top, I know I don't wait 30 days, if I pay with paypal and the item isn't there after 3 weeks, I would do a chargeback and get it straightened out later if need be to protect myself. Putting that in your terms will definitely hurt your business, even your legit business because if I saw that, I would think the seller was a jerk and not bid...
As far as the advice given here, I don't agree with it. If I was selling an item for $100 internationally, I would definitely want to go another way than paypal. For a $20 purchase, I am willing to take a chance. So far, no problems, if it became a problem I might change my mind though.
posted on November 16, 2003 08:04:44 PM new
I ship an average of 20 international parcels weekly (more this time of year). Have always accepted paypal and never had a problem. I use Global Priority mail so there is no DC possible. Everything has arrived and no chargebacks.
Friends don't let friends vote Republican!
posted on November 17, 2003 01:30:12 PM new
I've been selling for 5 years. These past 365 days have been the worst by any measurement of fraud for me. I had never had a chargeback against me until last holiday season. I had never had someone try to con me Internationally until this year as well.
I had two chargebacks from last holiday that cost me $47 on one, and $165 on the other. Both of these were in the USA. I just received an email from Paypal last week about a claim for a chargeback for a payment made with a confirmed address. Yes, in the end I will win, but in the meantime, paypal froze the funds while they investigate. How long will this take? They say up to 30 days, but last January I had a chargeback that didn't get refunded until July. About 3 weeks ago I had a buyer from Russia try to buy two jackets at $100 a piece. He kept trying to get me to accept Paypal, but I told him no. He then tried to use Bidpay, and they rejected his fraudulent butt back to Moscow. I'm glad I'm not out of that money.
You can take all the risks you want this holiday season. You'll enjoy the benefits in December of accepting payments with open arms and no protection. Come January and February when times are slow, you may start getting your chargebacks. Yes, a $20 charge back may not be a big deal when you sell thousands of dollars a week. If you are like me, the first few months of the year are tighter, and I cannot afford to have PP dipping into my account no matter if it is $5 or $200. The point is to protect yourself. Why should you give away any money to crooks. With an attitude of it's worth the risk, you make yourself the target. You don't learn jack until it burns you. If everyone started protecting themselves as mentioned previously, we would in effect stop the fraud at the source.
My sales are far better this year than last, and I can sleep at night knowing that I'm not going to get ripped off. I have had no problems with accepting payments since making these minor changes that I noted in my first part of this thread.
[ edited by rustygumbo on Nov 17, 2003 01:35 PM ]
posted on November 17, 2003 01:51:40 PM new
Hi Rusty,
Your last post illustrates my point exactly. As a seller you can choose to accept payment any way you like. In the case of your Russian 'customer' you weighed up the risks and chose not to offer paypal. Your gut feeling saved you from a headache later on. It is a shame that you have had a bad run with international sales. I have found that all my overseas buyers are great. It is only the locals that try to come the raw prawn.
Regards,
Adrian
[ edited by zircon4 on Nov 17, 2003 01:52 PM ]
posted on November 17, 2003 02:14:32 PM new
Not all of my International customers are dishonest. To the contrary, I've had little problems from them. Most of the problems come from Canada, but that is whole new topic.
I ship about 50 items a week. About 4-5% are International. I don't have problems with International buyers for the most part. They generally pay promptly, and are hassle free, but they do use Bidpay or send payment by mail. I've had very few complaints from International bidders about their system or having to pay the fee. I ship items out after I receive Bidpay's email, just as I would with Paypal. Yes, I have to wait a few days to get the Western Union Money Order from Bidpay, but it's the protection that makes it worthwhile. Bidpay will cover the payment if they accept the fraudulent credit card. I don't have to pay a penny, or waste any time answering emails about Delivery confirmation, signatures, proof of payment, delivery, etc.
If the buyer tells me that the fees are too high for them to use Bidpay, I consider splitting the fee in half with them depending on how much I'm gaining from the transaction. If I am getting a $100 profit on something I paid $2.00 for, then I don't mind splitting the fee with them. If I'm making $4.00, then there is no way I would consider it. It just depends.
Zircon pointed out that anyone can accept money any way they want. This is very true, but who wants to give back that money a month or two down the road when you've already blown the money earned and cannot afford it? No one has to follow my suggestions. To the contrary, I didn't follow other people's input for 4 years, until it started happening to me. Now, here I am trying to spread some words of wisdom so we all have a great holiday season, and make our keep for another prosperous year.
My ebay sales have grown from $200 the first year, to $5000 the second, to $12,000 the third, and last year it climbed to $50,000. This year, I'm guessing it will be about $60-70K. With this volume, you learn from your mistakes, and trust me, I've made a few. Good luck!
posted on November 17, 2003 05:51:52 PM new
Wise words from rustygumbo. I used to accept Paypal payments from unconfirmed Paypal addresses until I got 4 Paypal chargebacks in one month. Since then, my policy was to never accept payments from unconfirmed addresses and I haven't had a chargeback since.
If I were dishonest, I would buy myself an expensive item from a seller who ships to unconfirmed addresses (like davebraun). Then I'd complain to Paypal that the package never arrived and then Paypal would charge back my money from the seller.
posted on November 18, 2003 11:26:53 AM newIf I were dishonest, I would buy myself an expensive item from a seller who ships to unconfirmed addresses (like davebraun). Then I'd complain to Paypal that the package never arrived and then Paypal would charge back my money from the seller.
This is why my new policy of 32 day wait period on all unconfirmed and international sales. This has happened to me.
I see some posts stating that they wouldn't wait 32 days. That you would start a chargeback. That would be fine with me, at least then I would still have the items(s).
If you have a confirmed address, I ship within 24 hours except weekends. And if international, I recommend bidpay.
[ edited by stonecold613 on Nov 20, 2003 08:40 PM ]
posted on November 18, 2003 12:25:28 PM new
I wouldn't go for the 32 day wait period either. That is a bit overboard if you ask me. I tell USA paypal buyers to either confirm their address, send the payment via mail, or pay using Bidpay. Any of those options are quicker than waiting 32 days, and the headache of managing those items waiting... too much work for me. i want payments quick, and i want to ship items even quicker.
posted on November 21, 2003 09:32:14 AM new
There are now two more scams to watch for and there is nothing you can do about it.
1) You ship to the confirmed address but the buyer has asked his post office to forward it somewhere else. Then he claims non delivery. Even though the PO website clearly says "forwarded at the recipient's request" paypal will refund the buyer because you can not prove delivery to the confirmed address. And they will do this even if the buyer paid from paypal funds and not credit card.
So figure out if it is worth paying an extra $2 on every package for a "do not forward" service.
2) On items over $250, you have to get signature confirmation. However, it takes a few weeks from when you request it until you get the actual print out. But Paypal only gives you one week to prove it. So unless you request every signature confirmation be sent to you (I know the PO charges about $7 for this) you will be out of luck if someone makes a charge back on an item over $250.
posted on November 21, 2003 09:48:30 AM new
Makes me happy for once that I am selling low ticket items. I don't worry about anyone wanting a charge back on a $5 to $10 postcard
Of course, it hasn't happened yet and I have saved hundreds and hundreds of dollars on NOT using delivery confirmation which makes me even happier! And, I don't have to worry about confirmed or unconfirmed address since I am not covered by the wonderful seller protection program anyway
Edited to add that if I did sell something in that I expected to go for hundreds of dollars I would say money order or check only and then hold for check to clear.
[ edited by lindajean on Nov 21, 2003 09:50 AM ]
posted on November 21, 2003 10:55:13 AM new
yisgood,
paypal has only 1 week to respond to any chargeback request,thats why they want you to produce the evidence in one week.
you are going thru paypal merchant account.
if you have your own merchant account,you will have just one week to respond.so you may want to consider ups or fed exp for items over 250.
posted on November 21, 2003 11:22:42 AM new
>>yisgood,
paypal has only 1 week to respond to any chargeback request,thats why they want you to produce the evidence in one week.
you are going thru paypal merchant account.
if you have your own merchant account,you will have just one week to respond.so you may want to consider ups or fed exp for items over 250.<<
Baloney! First of all fed ex also takes a few weeks to get the signature sent to the sender. The link I provided was about a fed ex shipment. Second, with a merchant account you have a week to respond but if you respond with proof of delivery and state that you can get the signature, they will give you time to get the signature. In my 4 years of web sales, I had 4 charge back attempts and won every one. Third, with a real merchant account, if you ship to the customer's address and the customer asks the Post Office to forward it, the customer can not claim it wasn't delivered when the delivery confirmation shows "forwarded at the addressee's request." Only Paypal is vicious enough to allow this scam.
posted on November 21, 2003 11:28:45 AM new
Paypal rules don't say anything about forwarding by the addressee's request. If you did everything that Paypal requires to be elgible for Protection, then it's a non-issue. If there is something that specifically states the "forwarding by addressee's request" as a way for Paypal to reverse the charge, then send us the link. I have not found anything stating this.
I still reiterate how important it is to protect yourself, particularly during the holiday season. Too many scam artists out there are trying to dupe sellers out of their hard earned living. I don't want to be one of them.
posted on November 21, 2003 11:42:44 AM new
okay,my apology,one week to prove delivery and more time to fetch signature.
but if you are not happy with paypal ,you can just ask bidders to give you their cc number so you can charge it thru your own merchant account.
paypal is good for small amount .
or ask them to use bidpay and you pay the fee.
-sig file -------The thrill is gone!!
posted on November 21, 2003 12:17:55 PM newYisgood: Yer #2 donna make sense to moi! If you track the SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION on the PO's web-site, it will show delivery date & WHO SIGNED for it!
That's ALL PP requires ~ if you feel that this is INCORRECT, please point to the appropriate area of PP's TOS to back up yer assertion
posted on November 21, 2003 12:41:35 PM new
>>Yisgood: Yer #2 donna make sense to moi! If you track the SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION on the PO's web-site, it will show delivery date & WHO SIGNED for it!
That's ALL PP requires ~ if you feel that this is INCORRECT, please point to the appropriate area of PP's TOS to back up yer assertion <<
That's my whole point. Paypal puts terms on their site claiming that if you do x, y and z you are protected. Then they weasel out of it. Did you read the links I provided? The seller DID have signature confirmation. On line showed that it WAS delivered. Then PP ordered him to get physical proof of the signature within 7 days. When this couldn't be done, they reversed the payment.
Here is the seller's report:
"I got my response from PayPal - sorry, you lose. They are going to allow the chargeback because a signature was not obtained when the items were received. But I ask FedEx if indeed a signature was obtained and they say, yes, it was. So I ask for a copy of the signature and they say they will send it but it will take 2 - 3 weeks before I receive it. So I call PayPal and tell them that I did get a signature upon delivery and will receive proof within 2 - 3 weeks. PayPal Rep. says too bad - decision already made, you lose. But, I say to Rep., PayPal is allowing the chargeback because supposedly I did not get a signature, correct? Rep. agrees this is correct. But I say I did indeed get a signature and can produce it. Rep. says sorry, you lose."
As for other terms that PP says will protect you and then don't, I know a seller who had DC and was told by PP that DC did not show the address, only the zip code and therefore her protection was denied. Even though the PP site clearly says that DC is good proof. And this was for an item under $100.
That is the problem. PP does not follow their own rules.
posted on November 21, 2003 01:54:41 PM newYisgood: I'm sorry, but yer talking Apples & Oranges (USPS vs FEDEX) -- THEY ARE DIFFERENT!
I'm talking about SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION from the USPS!
From discussions I've had with PP in the past, I believe that the ONLINE PROOF of signature provided by USPS & SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION meets PP's requirements for the SELLER'S PROTECTION program!
I said before: tell me where PP says otherwise in their TOS!
SIGNATURE CONDIRMATION from the USPS is DIFFERENT than what ya get from FEDEX!
You have to pay extra for FEDEX signature proof -- most folks do NOT purchase it!
If you have evidence that PayPay will REJECT USPS SIGNATURE CONFIRMATION ONLINE TRACKING as meeting the requirements of the SELLER'S PROTECTION PROGRAM, please provide it so we can confront PP with it -- just don't babble about FEDEX when I'm talking about USPS
posted on November 23, 2003 12:49:22 PM new
Paypal's system for signature proof within 7 days is unrealistic if all of the shipping companies take over 7 days. I would think that Paypal requires the proof of shipment and proof of purchasing sig. confirmation for the item. Paypal has always been crooks, but unfortunately, they are the best system out there for paying for items. I often wonder if Paypal will end up getting sued for Monopolizing credit card payment systems using the Ebay community. It seems like this should be investigated, just as Microsoft was monopolizing their OS with PC compatible computers. Though MS wasn't the only company out there, it definately made its profits from practically forcing us to own their Operating Systems. It seems as though Ebay and Paypal are doing the same thing. They may not be the only source for payments, but it sure looks as though they are trying to squeeze their competition out of Ebay.
