posted on January 24, 2004 05:19:49 PM new
Buyer purchases a pair of boots from my vendio store, Pays via e-check, everthing is good there, But emails yesterday stating boots arent there, I check the endicia tracking-- states boots arrived on the 10th, My question is what would you do? I realize as a seller its my responsibility to get the item to the buyer, But I feel I have fulfilled that to the best of my abilites with tracking etc, At the same time if this is legit, I don't want the customer to be out of their money either, Just wondering what some others would do?
posted on January 24, 2004 05:29:18 PM new
The proof is on your side. I would email him the tracking number and let him see for himself. It is you responsibility to get the item to the shipper. Then it is the shippers responsibility. In addition, they could have taken insurance. Who knows the Boots could have Walked off (pun intended). You have done your part
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If you build it they will come........
posted on January 24, 2004 05:39:39 PM new
If items show they were delivered then I have done my job. In a case like this I don't refund or ship replacements unless they choose insurance.
posted on January 24, 2004 05:48:26 PM new
I agree with some of what Captian23 says. You did your part because you can verify that the boots were delivered.
Where our opinions differ is that I believe it is your responsibility to get the item to their door - not just to your shipper.
Any "contract" you have with the shipper is just that - between you and the shipper. Anyone who believes they can abdicate their responsibility once they take something to the Post Office is just a bit off.
If you are a hobby seller, this might not apply. However, it is my opinion (and one that guides our business) that I am required to ensure the items get to a seller's door. That means if it gets lost, I refund the cost my buyer incurred. And, then I file for my insurance claim. I still think it's interesting that people accept money for insurance purposes when they are most likely not allowed to do so according to their state's insurance regulators. Those who do, in effect, are acting as an "agent" of the insurance provider when they say it's up to the buyer to make the claim, etc.
If I buy insurance and I ask the buyer to pay for that in the form of a service fee, then that's more appropriate. I am the insured and I make the claim. The other way, you are taking the money on behalf of the Post Office and acting as their agent. I believe if someone wanted to make an issue of it, it could get sticky.
That being said, I think you can provide the "delivery" information to your buyer - date and time of delivery - and ask them to check around with anyone who would have had access to their home. You could also call their Post Office to inquire about the delivery and they might even remember the box and where they put it when you tell them the addressee didn't receive it.
I still don't believe you can wash your hands of it with the excuse that "they should have bought insurance" and be done with it. If I were the buyer, I would argue that you should have required my signature and ask you to provide more proof that you indeed sent it. Take their perspective and look critically at the situation - if indeed they don't have them - they paid and they didn't receive anything. What if they file a claim of mail fraud and it gets sticky -- the price of doing business in this fun auction world...
Wayne
Never explain -- Your friends do not need it and your enemies will not believe you anyway.
~ Elbert Hubbard
posted on January 24, 2004 06:23:26 PM new
First off, I am a Hobby Seller, I sell mostly Baseball Cards.
But I am going to disagree with your point. The Post Office offers insurance for a reason, to take responsibility for the item. You may chose to self insure the item (charge for it and if the item is lost or damaged replace it or refund the money), include a mandatory insurance charge in your S & H used to purchase USPS Insurance or as I do, offer to add the insurance at the post office's cost. By not doing either and replacing the item at word value you are putting your business at a tremendous risk.
You have lost control of the item once it leaves your hand. You can not stop it from being dropped, bent, Stolen or misplaced. Many times items are left on a porch, inside a door or just out in the open for all to see. You are taking all the risk. You are taking the chance that the buyer drops your Ming Vase when they receive it and ask for a refund. How about a dishonest buyer? Or if 1 family member gets the item from the door and puts it aside only to forget it came. You buyer says they never got it and you send a refund. A year later, the person finds the box. What happens then?
I will say that you should be upfront with your policy. Put it in your auction so there are no questions. That way you are being honest and relieving your self the Liability.
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If you build it they will come........
posted on January 24, 2004 06:36:08 PM new
I had a nice talk with my mail carrier today. I asked him if my DC packages were scanned at the local PO distribution center or at the delivery point. He said the final package scan is done at the final delivery point. That is your front door folks!
When I asked him why I had 2 DC packages that had been delivered without ever being scanned at any point, he said it was a failure in their system. The odds are small but it does happen. Packages are supposed to be scanned at local PO before they are shipped to a distribution center. Scanned again at the center and any intermediate distribution point and then final scan at the delivery point.
At the local Post Masters request, I am now keeping track of how many of my packages do not get scanned locally. They have promised to take action if they can identify where the problem is.
In the mean time, if I have a package which has been scanned as delivered, and I have a customer which claims he never received it, I will be advising him to go to his local PO.
posted on January 24, 2004 09:10:30 PM new
Before you get into what could be a nasty confrontation - suggest that they go to their local post office. Chances are the packages was mistakenly scanned and that it is in realry sitting on a shelf waiting for pick-up.
~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~ • ~~~
If it's really "common" sense, why do so few people actually have it?
posted on January 24, 2004 10:49:00 PM new
captain,
In this case you are wrong. In a legal standpoint the person doing the shipping (seller or cosigner) is responsible to make sure all goods are delivered to the buyer. The PO, UPS, Fedex are only agents of the seller. Simply giving them your packages doesn't make them responsible for it's value to the cosignee (buyer).
It is different if the goods are delivered but damaged. Then it does become a case of if no insurance too bad unless the buyer paid for insurance and you as a seller did not purchase insurance. Then the seller has committed fraud and could be charged with a crime.
But back to the point of this case. Insurance coverage would cover only you as a seller if a parcel was not delivered and would be solely your responsibility for recovery costs. You would legally still be responsible to deliver the goods that the purchaser had paid for.
In this case the first sentence you wrote in your first posting would be the best route to go. E-mail the tracking number and give them the link to check it's statis for themselves. I have had this happen a handful of times only to have the customer walk around their home to search out the package. It is likely somewhere reasonably secure and they just haven't looked for it yet.
posted on January 24, 2004 11:12:00 PM new
Ok, I guess I will explain that to my wife, who happens to be a Postal Worker. Ok, you don't have to deliver the mail. It is OK to lose it, I will pay for it. It is MY responsibility that it gets there. Going by your logic, you have taken the responsibility of the mail AWAY from the Post Office. Don't you think if your logic was the case there would be a lot more claims of lost items? Don't you think more item would be sent certified mail? And as I stated before, I put that disclaimer in my auctions so their is no confusion. If you wish to guarantee the item door to door that is fine for your business. I guess you must have enough profit margin to do it. What happens when the neighbor picks up the Package? What happens if the Post Office deliverers it to 10 Church St instead of 10 Church Road? What have you done wrong as the seller? My responsibility is to have proof of mailing. From there it is in the Carriers hands. And that is stated Clearly in my auctions.
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If you build it they will come........
posted on January 25, 2004 05:57:19 AM new
This point of the sales contract goes over and over itself like a broken record.
What is the use or validity of having Terms of Service then - nothing? Why do all sellers have it in some shape or form then?
YOUR BID IS YOUR CONTRACT. Read the contract regarding THAT sale before you agree to purchase the item.
Seven, you as a seller seem to be set within this framework. So why you even asked for opinions on it, i dont know. You will have to do what YOU THINK is right, regardless of what anybody tells you.
Wayne, I can see where some of the points of your post make sense. But I dont know if one could file a claim of fraud on the seller if they have proof of sending the item. As far as saying the seller is contracting the PO, what stops anybody from saying the buyer is contracting the po? Oh, I dont know....never mind...
posted on January 25, 2004 06:42:27 AM new
Am I right on this point? If the item has PO insurance and DC showing the package was delivered. I don't think the PO would pay a claim if the buyer says they didn't get the package. I think the PO was getting killed on claims before they offered DC. I also believe the claims were the only reason the PO started offering free DC. If the PO won't pay a claim why should the seller. To me its just common sense. I really don't want to hear its the law or something like that, so is paying taxes the law. I am betting the vast majority of both sellers and buyers aren't 100% on that law.
posted on January 25, 2004 08:26:27 AM new
dc shows package is delivered??
if it were USPS dc,it may just show it was scanned at seller post office,it may show it was received at destination post office or it may show it was received by the leasing office of an apt complex or office .
or it may show it was scanned at the front door of the buyer.
most insured packages arrive safe and sound,we have forked out so much to the post office in insurance premium,the post office should be gracious enough to pay a few claims here and there.
i have a big envelope of insurance and dc slips for all the packages sent via usps,and not one single claim for years,think of all that 55 cents,1.30,2.20 etc the post office has been collecting.
-sig file -------the lobster in the boiling pot of water who tries to prevent the others from climbing out.
posted on January 25, 2004 08:28:05 AM new
the author said-endicia states the package has arrived?
arrived where??
-sig file -------the lobster in the boiling pot of water who tries to prevent the others from climbing out.
posted on January 25, 2004 10:15:27 AM newOk, I guess I will explain that to my wife, who happens to be a Postal Worker.
Well then she had better go back and read the way the law works in cases like these because she is dead wrong on that issue.
And by your example, you are still responsible to get the item to your buyer. Just because it got delivered to the wrong address doesn't let you off of the hook. If you go to court, you will be held liable. As I stated before, the USPS, UPS, Fedex .... are only your agents. You are still responsible for the parcel until it is received by the person or business your are sending it to. The law is very clear on this. Don't believe me, go ask any lawyer that deals in the transportation industry.
posted on January 25, 2004 11:14:28 AM new
Bigpeepa is right. If you have insurance on a package and it said it was delivered the post office will not pay the claim. I can attest to that as it happened to one of my buyers. I did not refund. I wrote this in another thread. I mailed a package to Texas from Wisconsin with eDC and insurance. Buyer wrote she never received the package and the eDC said it was delivered. We emailed back and forth. I went to my post office and tried to file a claim no such luck they wouldn't accept it as it said the package was delivered. The buyer tried from her end. No such luck, it said it was Delivered. I called the post office in Texas, my expense and talked with the person in charge of insurance. She said the buyer buys many items, she has given permission for the post man to leave packages on her porch. That ends everyones responsibility except the buyer who gave permission. She was out her items and I didn't refund. Sorry this is so long. If it had never been scanned than that is a different story she would have been able to collect the insurance. So do you think we should be putting eDC on packages with insurance? I honestly don't think so.
posted on January 25, 2004 11:22:47 AM newYou are still responsible for the parcel until it is received by the person or business your are sending it to. The law is very clear on this. Don't believe me, go ask any lawyer that deals in the transportation industry.
Then does that mean if Barnes and Noble or JC Penny sends me a package and if I receive it but say I don't do they refund. I doubt it. But then they do use UPS or Fedx so there is a signature confirmation. Maybe we should all switch to UPS. Or maybe with that eDC a signature is required to accept that parcel? Another senario when a package is sent with eDC only a notice is put in the buyers mail box and they have to go to the post office to pick it up. The non delivery (fingers crossed) is getting way out of hand and I think the USPS has to sit down and figure out what they can do to stop it. My vote says do not deliver any packages make them pick them up at the post office.
posted on January 25, 2004 04:43:39 PM newThen does that mean if Barnes and Noble or JC Penny sends me a package and if I receive it but say I don't do they refund
They sure do, and as mail order companies they are obligated by law to refund if the items are lost or damaged. However, what you have actually described is fraud, and if they can show that it is likely a fraud, thet do not have to pay. Nor do they have to ship to addresses/areas or to persons where items are regularly "stolen".
It is undisputed that a seller is required to get the item to the buyerer in the condition as advertised. You can't pass the responsibilty to your agent/sub contractor such as the post office. Ultimately you the seller may make a claim against the post shipper, but you also have to make good to the buyer regardless of the disposition with the shipper.
You can not escape this lability through terms of service, such as, if buyer refuses insurance, then seller not responsible for lost or damaged articles.
The risk of massive fraud and large losses is clearly towards the fraudulent seller, and the law operates to protect buyers.
You never read in the papers about a buyer defrauding sellers of $300,000 worth of merchandise over a short period of time, but there are many stories of fraudulent sellers doing this.
posted on January 25, 2004 06:00:16 PM new
Thanks Stonecold, you proved my point with your last quote.. The carrier is responsible to deliver the goods. Whether it is the USPS, Yellow Freight or a Moving Company. By purchasing stamps and the Post Office accepting your package you are entering into a verbal contract. When the buyer of the item pays additional funds to mail the item, they are entering into the contract. If this was the contents of your house and the moving company moved your items into somebody else's house than is it your responsibility to get your items back? Of course not. If Yellow Freight delivers a Printing press to the wrong printer is it the right printers responsibility to move it to the correct shop? As stated before, by bidding on my auctions you are agreeing to the terms of my auction. It is clearly written in my auctions that I am not responsible for lost or misdirected goods.
Here is a scenario for you. I sell a Babe Ruth Baseball bat and it is delivered to the wrong address. The person at the wrong address opens it and thinks it is a gift and decides to play Sunday Softball with it. After hitting 4 Home Runs that day realizes that it was not meant for them and gives it to the correct person. If the correct person were to email you asking for their money back because it was not delivered in the condition described would you refund the money? If you say yes you are lying. You would say that the first person should have checked the mailing label and returned it immediately. There my friend goes your argument. You may say the Shipping Contractor is wrong, the first person is wrong but you, the seller acted in good faith, correctly addressed the Package, and did what was expected and agreed upon when agreeing to the terms of the auction.
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If you build it they will come........
posted on January 25, 2004 08:37:49 PM newIf Yellow Freight delivers a Printing press to the wrong printer is it the right printers responsibility to move it to the correct shop?
No, it would be yours. The correct printer has already paid for what they are suppose to be receiving. It is your responsibility to see that they actually receive it. If they don't, you either need to send another or give a complete refund. You are totally liable for the item until it is delivered to the correct person or business. Why do you think PayPal requires you to only send to confirmed addresses only. It's not because they came up with that on their own. It was part of the requirements impossed on them by many of the states that filed suit against them to follow the laws.
Then it is your responsibility to go after that freight company to recover the item or the cost of the item. And with something like a printing press, you had better hope you took insurance coverage on it so you can recoupe the complete cost of it.
posted on January 25, 2004 09:21:15 PM new
Again, you answered my question, It is the freight company's responsibility. It just seems like you will use any argument, no matter how little sense it makes. I never said in any of my posts that the buyer was responsible, all I have said is that the seller is not. With the warped logic you are using, tying everything back onto the seller eBay would not have survived. Neither would interstate commerce. The shipper takes responsibility to deliver the item to the destination, that is what their function is. Why would a freight company carry cargo insurance if your logic was correct? If in the auction I agree to drop off the item and I bring it to the wrong place, then yes, I am the Shipper so I am responsible, but that is the only time. It is very refreshing to see that you are personally willing to take on the liability of the Post Office or any other shipper you chose to use. When you drop off your pkg do you tell the clerk "Go ahead and lose it, I got your back".
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If you build it they will come........
posted on January 25, 2004 09:33:47 PM newThe buyer is in no way in privity with the shipper. Wrong...
When the buyer tells the post man to leave the package at the door then that buyer is responsible for the package. No postman should beable to leave a eDC package at a doorstop if the buyer is not home. That is the fault of the USPS for letting that post man do what shouldn't be done. Both the buyer and the USPS are at fault. Seller isn't because they did what they had to to get that package to the buyer. What else can be done? Now if I hadn't put eDC on my package then the insurance would have paid her claim. No proof of delivery.
posted on January 25, 2004 10:07:36 PM newWhen the buyer tells the post man to leave the package at the door then that buyer is responsible for the package
That has nothing to do with the privity I am refering to. I am refering to the privity between the seller and shipper to deliver the item.
The bottom line is that the seller is responsible to get the item to the buyer. If it is lost or damaged, no matter who the shipper is, it is the seller's responsibility to compensate the buyer.
The buyer can only hold the seller responsible becasue the buyer is not in privity with the shipper.
The seller refunds the buyer, and then if the shipper has any cognizable liability, it is up to the seller to collect from the shipper.
The shipper is not necessarily "responsible" to the seller in any case. There are any number of situations where the shipper is not liable for any losses.
It goes like this--- the seller is responsible to the buyer for any losses, and the shipper is responsible to the seller for any covered losses. If it is not a covered loss by the shipper, the seller still must refund the buyer.
Were it otherwise, sellers could collect money and not ship anything and tell the buyers that the item is "in the mail". And there would be nothing the buyer could do.
posted on January 26, 2004 01:04:22 AM new
Stone, you are bringing up Yellow Freight and other major carriers when they operate on a completely different scale.
If I remember correctly when I worked as a biller for a few different trucking companies -- most items were shipped FOB DEST, with seller responsbile for goods in transit in most cases. At it states at which point Title passes from seller to buyer.
However, you have to wonder with EBAY auctions if this applies because most state: BUYER pays shipping. Is that not a statement that the buyer agrees along with intention to purchase that they are Now responsible for product in transit and we as sellers are only prepaying shipping?
If this were NOT the case, we would all be shipping collect....dont you think?
If anybody wants to read about FOB or most established transporation rules they can read it here: http://www.western.edu/pur/docs/fob.pdf
posted on January 26, 2004 12:11:22 PM new
I knew this post would turn into a law discussion. I am willing to bet that almost everyone of us break some kind of law everyday we are alive. Just use COMMON SENSE about refunds and all will be well. By using common sense and hard work I have been able to sell enough stuff on Ebay to 100% pay for my kids College. I have very near 5000 positive feedback's with 6 negs. 3 negs were from no paying bidders, 1 neg was from a buyers trying to black mail me into giving her a partial refund, 1 neg was from a buyer that said they never received their package. That buyer turned down insurance because of its cost and 1 neg I completely deserve I blew a listing. I am telling you guys about my track record not because I am bragging but because of all the blah blah about the law. I think that good old common sense prevails. I am proud of the track record that good old common sense built and I never read one word about shipping laws.
posted on January 27, 2004 02:59:27 PM new
Heres a e-mail I just got....thank got for plactic bags or this could have been bad.
Hi,
I am just writing to let you know that I received Cinderella today and she is beautiful. Thank you for the quick shipment. Just to let you know my mailman put the package on the side of the house, behind my gate, but did not put a note on the door to say he did it. It rained and she was out in the rain all night. Amazingly she was not damaged. The box looked awful but the doll was fine.
Thanks again. I will be leaving positive feedback.
posted on January 27, 2004 04:41:34 PM new
toasted, if i remember and usually do, I put the inner package in plastic bag, too for that very same reason.
posted on January 29, 2004 05:35:18 PM new
I started shipping with a signature confirmation required. I add the cost in my flat rate shipping and handling charges. Never had a problem with nondeliveries since. I've had a couple of people mention the higher cost of shipping but I will not ship with out a signature confirmation. Flat rate shipping charge is plainly displayed in all my auctions.
posted on January 31, 2004 08:19:48 PM new
A short resolution-- My intention was to #1 ensure this wasn't a fraudulent buyer- which I don't believe it was, #2- make sure all avenues of where this package could have gone were exhausted #3 refund the money if it was truly lost (because thats the kind of guy I am - But the DC threw a kink into all of it so I wanted see what the other sellers would do- The "law" aspect is really a non-issue to the vast majority of us, In the end- I got a lovely piece of hate mail from the buyer, followed the next day by an apology when they realized the package had been delivered 3 weeks earlier and had indeed been sitting in the complex "large package" box. 1300 packages since September this year and not a single one lost- "knock wood"
