posted on May 1, 2004 06:22:27 PM new
I bid on and won several patterns from two different sellers. Nowhere in their listings does it say that I was bidding on copies. Unfortunately, one sent me copies and the other will be sending me copies (I found that out from another bidder). One is located in the UK and the other is in USA. I paid both via paypal. If they don't refund my money voluntarily, do I have any recourse? These two transactions totalled about $100.
posted on May 1, 2004 10:44:10 PM new
Go back and read the description. Does it say anywhere they they will send you the patterns either by email or hard copies? As I stated in another thread most soap recipes are all copies but they state you can request either email or hard copies. I suppose you have recourse if the item you received is not what was described.
Today I went to a large Church sale and bought 66 magazines of mostly cross stitch. They should do quite well, I hope. There were some vintage knitting books also. That is another way to get yourself patterns. Do you sell patterns or do you sell the finished product?
[ edited by Libra63 on May 1, 2004 10:45 PM ]
posted on May 2, 2004 05:28:12 AM new
Libra -- I sell both -- patterns and finished product, but my business is almost entirely of patterns. I did go back and re-read the listings and nowhere does it say that they were selling copies. One was a dutch auction that she has run a few times now. That's a good idea on the church sales. We have alot of them down here. Churches and charities are always running elephant/antique/flea market sales. I bet I can find alot of stuff through those.
posted on May 2, 2004 05:55:19 AM new
Bizzy, I am not even sure it is legal to sell copies, even if that is how they are described. I also sell craft books, and I won't even copy patterns for buyers who were outbid because of copyright, and I would never sell copies. Maybe that is why the sellers didn't mention that fact in their auctions, I think pattern publishers could sue.
posted on May 2, 2004 06:04:48 AM new
unless you have purchased paypal buyer insurance ,othewise filing complaint with paypal will do nothing for you,paypal will issue a warning to the seller saying paypal takes this kind of complaint seriously,bla bla bla.
as for making copies,sometimes it is okay to make copies,there is a publisher called DOVER CORPORATION ,they reprint books which have no copyrights,they even encourage you to write to them and let them know if there are books out there they can reprint.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 2, 2004 06:08:43 AM new
stop -- You don't need to buy "buyer protection". You can still file for a refund. You can also file a buyer complaint and if the money is in their account and you are found to be right, you will receive a refund. The copyright laws of the United States are very specific. Personally, I would not want to come across a publisher for copying their items and then selling the copies. That is unjust enrichment. You could be fined very heavily.
posted on May 2, 2004 06:10:57 AM new
You can file for the refund with PayPal, but without purchasing the "Buyer Protection", all PayPal is concerned with is whether you received your item(s). I know - been there, done that
edited to add - PayPal doesn't get involved in copyright laws, item not as described, misuse of US mail, etc.
__________________________________
"The more I want to get something done, the less I call it work." - Richard Bach
[ edited by wgm on May 2, 2004 06:12 AM ]
posted on May 2, 2004 06:14:15 AM new
wgm is correct on all counts.
--
Answers to Questions Nobody Asked, #36:
During the filming of "The Imposters" (1998), director Stanley Tucci bestowed the Golden Ham award on the actor who had gone farthest over the top in that week's filming.
posted on May 2, 2004 06:35:24 AM new
If you look on a listing, and it says "buyer protection offered" and click on it, it states that you're covered up to a certain amount of money (I believe $500.00) at no extra charge. There are criteria that a seller must meet in order to be able to offer it and it is automatically placed on the listing. I have them on my listings. Unfortunately, this one seller didn't have it on hers, but the other one (in England) does. So I have recourse for one of them anyway. I sure did learn an expensive lesson though.
posted on May 2, 2004 07:09:10 AM new
bizzy,
that buyer protection on the item page,is it offered thru paypal??
Dover corporation has been around for a long time,there are many books out there with no copyright and can be reprinted with no legal problem,some i have purchased are books on rene lalique perfume bottles, works of Erte,old occult books such as alex neal on tibet,alberto magus book on egytian magic.
they have the legal dept look into them before they reprint.
these books are long out of print,it is a good way to make them available at affordable price.
-sig file -------we eat to live,not live to eat.
Benjamin Franklin
posted on May 2, 2004 07:30:33 AM new
Stop -- Yes, it is offered through ebay/paypal buyer protection. I have them on my auctions because I meet all the criteria as a seller. I don't have to do anything other than accept paypal and meet the criteria and it is automatically put in my listings. It's located right in the listing up by where it says "view other items for sale by this seller" or something like that. Yes, there are certain items that aren't copyrighted and therefore are not covered under the copyright laws. However, the items that I'm talking about are clearly copyrighted and the copyrighted symbol is located on the item.
This is the url to the government copyright laws. Now if someone can understand it please do it in laymans words.
Do you think the people that design the patterns go through all this or do they assume that if they write copyright on their patterns that they are. If they just write copyrighted they aren't as they have paperwork to send into the governmant. I checked the patterns that I bought yesterday the vintage one says copyright 1948 but no copyright logo. The C with the circle. The craft magazines that I purchased have nothing about copyright in them.
When you see a dutch auction for patterns I would be suspicious of that because that means they have more than one to sell.
Bizzy-If you like the pattern and you think you will turn a profit then I wouldn't be worried, but if you think you won't make a profit than I guess I would return them.
posted on May 2, 2004 08:19:51 AM new
Libra -- I was in the legal field for many years. Basically, all that mumbo jumbo legalease is saying that the designer, writer, musician, etc., has the right to protect his or her original works from others claiming it as their own. He or she also has the right to protect their works from others receiving unjust enrichment off of copies of the designers original works.
I am all about turning a profit. But I will not sell copies of any patterns. It's more than just being illegal. Personally, if I designed something and had it published, and someone else comes along and photocopies it, and then is selling those photocopies, I would sue him or her. The designers make royalties over the number of items sold. She has the right to the money that is being derived from copies.
I will seek retribution, and if I lose, those copies are going in the trash. I will not sell them, but I will have learned a very valuable lesson!
posted on May 2, 2004 10:23:50 AM new
Libra - once you have the paperwork filled ou once, it becomes a matter of just plugging in the new info and sending the form along with a copy of the pattern in.
posted on May 2, 2004 11:14:33 AM new
I have a little booklet of baby crochet and knitting patterns I'm going to list tonight. Was looking through it for copyright info so I could date it.
Guess what? No copyright date, no symbol, no nothing. Just the name of the company, their location and Printed in U.S.A.
So if I were so inclined, I could have it copied and sell the copies. Right?
posted on May 2, 2004 12:41:51 PM newIf you look on a listing, and it says "buyer protection offered" and click on it, it states that you're covered up to a certain amount of money (I believe $500.00) at no extra charge.
Unfortunately for you, the item received must be "significantly different" from the description before PayPal Buyer Protection kicks in.
Since both sellers are in fact sending you the pattern you bid on, I'm guessing (and it's just a guess, but an educated one) that PayPal will deny your claim.
I'm kind of surprised you didn't ask the sellers before bidding whether or not the item offered was an original or a copy...since you know it's a common practice to sell copies.
--
Answers to Questions Nobody Asked, #36:
During the filming of "The Imposters" (1998), director Stanley Tucci bestowed the Golden Ham award on the actor who had gone farthest over the top in that week's filming.
posted on May 2, 2004 01:19:56 PM new
I agree with you Bizzycrocheting, I would never sell copies. I don't know what else you could possibly do when buying. Do you ask every seller if the pattern is the original or a copy? You would never expect it to be a copy. I would try complaining to eBay about it, it's always worth a try, maybe the most that will happen is that the seller will get a warning. I have sold hundreds of patterns, some very old, but I would never make copies of them to sell, it just doesn't seem fair.
posted on May 2, 2004 02:33:18 PM new
Thanks for the link, Fleecies. Interesting info, for sure.
Another booklet I have is crochet instructions for Glossilla Corde Bags and Accessories. Copyright date is 1943. A few years ago I had several copies made but never got around to selling them because I wasn't sure about the copyright expiration date.
Based on the info in the link, it looks like the booklet went into public domain in 1999. So I can sell my copies without having the copyright police knocking on my door.
posted on May 2, 2004 04:09:16 PM new
Fluffy and others -- Alot has been going on today. There have been numerous complaints filed with Ebay about the selling of copies and the copyright infringement law. Why should I have to ask every seller on every pattern that I'm bidding on if it's a copy? I would never win anything because I would be too busy verifying if each auction is legal. That's ebay's headache, not mine. If I see in the listing that the item is in fact a copy, then I would not bid on it. As for the buyer protection, I have to disagree. It is not only significantly different than the description, it is also again the laws. You may find occasionally an item that is not copyrighted. But the ones that I'm bidding on are not only highly sought publishers, but very active. I know that each and every one of their patterns are copyrighted.
posted on May 2, 2004 04:11:27 PM new
One footnote -- There is a HUGE difference between a copy of an item and an original pattern. Just look at what one of our sellers on this board is going through with copies of jelly purses! The original patterns are HIGHLY sought after and are much more valuable than a mere copy. Just look at the same with books, etc. Don't ever think that it's "just a pattern" that it's not highly sought after or valuable!
posted on May 2, 2004 04:29:00 PM new
"There have been numerous complaints filed with Ebay about the selling of copies and the copyright infringement law."
posted on May 2, 2004 04:46:34 PM new
Lucy -- I don't know how you can find out about them. I only know through the different buyers who have written to me and told me or I have written to and warned about dishonest sellers. There is one seller in particular who I know is under fire for what she is doing. For some reason, I have people confiding me in me.
posted on May 2, 2004 05:34:52 PM new
"...or I have written to and warned about dishonest sellers."
Is doing this 'auction interference"? ... I thought we weren't allowed to write to other ebay bidders to tell them something we suspect [or we know], regarding other sellers.
posted on May 2, 2004 05:37:03 PM new
Aintrich, it occurred to me, too, that this could be construed as auction interference.
One thing I do know, if anyone wrote to a bidder of mine claiming I was a "dishonest seller" I'd report the writer to eBay in a flash! And I'm not kidding.
posted on May 2, 2004 05:44:51 PM new
Well, let me tell you Lucy, if you were doing something dishonest, against ebay's rules, and against the law, you would have a HUGE fight on your hands just the way this seller has right now. By the way, all the auctions are now closed so I haven't interefered with anything.
The "allegations" can be verified independently by my e-mails. Perhaps if you had asked, I would have posted them or provided them to you individually.
Don't play games with me, Lucy. I don't have time for games. Simply ask and I will provide. If you have a problem with me, my e-mail is [email protected]. If not, then go back to brown-nosing fluffy. It does seem to be what you do best.
