posted on June 24, 2004 03:11:01 PM new
This is one for the books. Tell me where I went wrong here? I sold two lots of model kits to a guy named leopoldbgdk. This guy named Paul grace of Kokomo indian waited until I gave him good feedback for his purchases. I reduced shipping for him from the $8.00 for the lot STATED IN THE AD ($16 total) to $10 total. I also included a really nice set of decals for his double purchase fee of charge as a surprise for his double order. I got the following email from him the day after I gave him feedback "deal as agreed"
Dear drjackk,
Before I post feedback please explain why at first you wanted $16.00 S&H then you said it would be $10. However, upon receipt, I see that the cost was only $5.75 for both items. USPS boxes were used and I sent MO so no additional costs were incurred by you. This would be contrary to your remarks as to how S&H is derived and how you understand as a buyer as well as a seller. While the items arrived in good shape and as described, I will wait to comment on S&H charges in feedback until I hear from you. PG
I sent him the following email as follows
First, If you think you want to hit me for less than perfect feedback after I cut you the price of the shipping/handling, I certainly do not want your business! Do you think it is fair to wait for someone to give YOU good feedback, then stab them in the back or question some part of the deal LATER. You agreed to a full $16 shipping and handling, I gave you a break down to $10 (40% reduction). The boxes were NOT used, (but they are free to me). I was under no true obligation to reduce S/H, but I did it for good customer relations, and what I would expect to pay if I were buying, which I often do off of ebay. IN MY OPINION, You are way out of line here. With 238 feedbacks, I would expect you know the game by now. I do not owe anyone an explanation to the costs, but I have explained it below.
I kept 100% my end of the contract, the kits were "as described" and cut you a break on shipping, + a free gift! And now you threaten or imply a less than perfect feedback! Give me a break!
The handling charge $4.25 covers the cost of recording your shipment in the shipping book, the time spent packing your order, the trip to the post office (have you seen the price of gas lately) and my time based at a lousy $10.00 per hour to do the packing and shipping. There is the time of emails like this. I also believe I sent you a free decal comet 1/48th sheet worth $7.00 as a "good will" gesture (if I remember right). The real cost per shipping is $7.00 for the first kit, and $1 to $2 (size depending) based on over 5000 kits shipping is actual cost based on the above. You had 4 kits, normally. I only charged you $10, and that's what you paid. This is my TRUE costs. I can see you have never been in business. Your kits to not jump into the mail and deliver themselves.
The point is, the shipping charges are right up front. I gave you a solid cost, in writing, in the ad, on how much the cost of shipping/handling would be when you bid! If you had a question on shipping/handling costs, you should have asked BEFORE you bid. I have only had 3 complaints in 5 years for shipping cost, and that was international. Now I do not do international shipping any more because of that. I have never had a problem with anyone before domestically with shipping/handling prices.
I do not make a penny on the average handling charges, I break even over the long haul.
This really leaves a bad taste in the mouth of us who try to treat our customers right. You got a problem, you ask and confirm BEFORE you bid, not after the person has left you good feedback and you have received your items "as described"! You got what you paid for, at an agreed price, with a 40% reduction in shipping. The shipping price was as fair as I could make it.
If I sound pissed I am. Both your attitude with feedback AFTER THE FACT (you got good feedback from me), and an agreed to deal and questioning shipping later is very wrong and in my opinion, dishonest.
Please now answer my question. Did you not agree to actually $16 shipping or not when you bid??? I tried to give you as big a break as I could.
his answer
Thanks, you made it very easy for me to post the feedback you richly deserve regarding your exhorbitant S&H fees. I am a buyer not a seller. No matter what your smart-ass retort, hopefully its going to have a direct effect on your prospective bidders. And to think you actually have the balls to assume a $16 S&H fee for what costs $5.75 is OK. All that extra padding to make a few entries and you even make your customers buy the money order so you don't have to pay the PayPal fee to boot! Get real!
and he left bad feedback for auctions number 3193617355 and 3193816465
Now I will admit that I was not very tactful with my reply, but direct and honest is how I deal with customers, but what do you with buyers who want feedback first, then burn you for you dong nothing wrong. I normally do not give feedback first until the last day before the auction to clear. I just did a few up as I shipped them to clear the books for a 30 day respite in sales. If you read my new ads, I am not sure I will get in trouble with ebay for what I did, but starting sunday nite, I am trying something indirect. probably get kicked off for a while.
Just how he can figure asking $8 shipping for each auction (he made it 16, but how do I know someone is going to bid on both auctions), then cut it to $10 for both auctions, gave him a great decal sheet for the time and scale he collects in as a surprise. The cost per kit was $2.50 each. A lot less than 98% of ebay single auctions. I gave him a GREAT DEAL.
Any comments. go read the ads if you like! Any comments appreciated.
posted on June 24, 2004 03:30:18 PM new
Sorry, but I agree that the "handling" was a little too high. But that alone wouldn't have caused me to neg you. Although your e-mail contains some perfectly valid points, it could've been worded much, much better. I probably would've offered him a refund of a couple of dollars just to smooth things over (but that's just me).
Suggestion: Start using "stealth" postage, where the actual shipping amount isn't shown on the package. It'll eliminate most (if not all) of these types of problems.
posted on June 24, 2004 03:42:45 PM new
I can relate. The buyers I try to help the most, are the ones that seem to make it the hardest on me. I don't bend nearly as far on shipping charges as I used to for this very reason. Negs and neutrals never seem to come from where I expect.
posted on June 24, 2004 03:58:56 PM new
You have a chance to respond to that feedback. Respond with a true and honest answer that doesn't show that you are upset. That is the only thing you can do and I am sure someone in here can help with that. After reading this board for many years I never leave feed back first.
I agree with you that the bidder should have emailed you about shipping as you did state it in your aucttion. Just block him and move on, it isn't worth it.
posted on June 24, 2004 03:59:18 PM new
Hi Don. Is my understanding that you were originally making $3 on the shipping of each auction? Or were both shipped @ 5.95 total, making your actual shipping costs 3.00 something each, and your handling 5.00 on each auction?
Seems to me the complaint is why you wanted to charge 16.00 but didnt charge 16.00? Maybe its best to stick to the original quoted shipping charges and not do anyone any favors.
You're right, though. Listing is free, gas is free, packing materials and time is free...
posted on June 24, 2004 04:19:30 PM new
Some people want to lord it over others in any way they can. You could have catered to this individual by providing a complete and detailed breakdown of your shipping and handling specifics. But, why bother? You step on a nail, you take appropriate action. Good replies on the neg's, but possibly something similar to, 'I combined and reduced s/h by 40% for this buyer on two auctions. Thanks.' You just told your buyers that you save them money on multiple bids!!!
I read some of the other neg's this self-appointed poophead has left and it is obvious that once he gets a hair up his spadoinky nothing will please him, you get bad mouthed. You've been wronged. I would recommend saving a copy of the auctions in questioned and providing them as 'proof' if anyone asks. You have great auctions don't let poophead change ya. Hunting him down and torturing him would get you bad press right now.
__________________
You know...the best way to defeat a liberal is to let them speak.
posted on June 24, 2004 04:50:50 PM new
Between your strong wording and leaving feedback first, you lit the fuse on this self-important nitwit.
[ edited by max40 on Jun 24, 2004 04:51 PM ]
posted on June 24, 2004 04:51:29 PM new
Wow, what a jerk. I wouldn't let it bother you though. I checked out your feedback and I wouldn't hesitate to bid on your stuff.
"I voted for the $87 billion before I voted against it."
posted on June 24, 2004 05:54:06 PM new
That really, REALLY stinks. I'm sorry this happened to you, but you know, it takes all kinds. I don't think you could have done it any different. In regards to your reply to his first email, maybe you could have used a bit more tact, but you were in no way out of line.
*Teresa*
posted on June 24, 2004 07:39:43 PM new
You need to do two things immediately. First, stand in front of a mirror and repeat 100 times "I will never leave feedback first". Then, since he seems to be affixed with the concept of Vaseline, send him a jar.
Be sure to include directions for use
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 24, 2004 07:47:08 PM new
I think this borders on feedback extortion! Perhaps you can have them removed? Had to chuckle over him accusing you of having balls, Dianne. If he had any, he'd PAY to have those comments removed.
posted on June 24, 2004 09:12:41 PM new
thedewey,
You said, "Suggestion: Start using "stealth" postage, where the actual shipping amount isn't shown on the package. It'll eliminate most (if not all) of these types of problems."
Is it possible to do this if I am doing U.S. Priority Mail, paying for and printing the label via the internet at https://sss-web.usps.com/ds/jsps/ds_landing.jsp
posted on June 25, 2004 05:06:16 AM new
As far as I know, the STEALTH feature is NOT offered on the USPS site, but only when you print via eBay/PayPal /or/ use ENDICIA.COM or STAMPS.COM
posted on June 25, 2004 05:18:26 AM new
Don-you should have looked at his other auctions he bought.He actually paid $8.00 for at least one other model kit and he didnt seem to have a problem with that and you could have pointed that out to him in your reply email.Looks to me like you were set up ! Look at the facts-
1-he has bought alot of other airplane kits on ebay and knows approximately how much the shipping should be.If he thought the shipping was too high,he either should not have bid or ask if you combine shipping which he didnt.
2-he asked for feedback first,which would have made me suspicious right away.Why would a buyer care about feedback in the first place? It doesnt do him any good because a seller is going to sell to him anyway weather he as 100 feedbacks or 1,000 feedbacks-unless he has alot of negs.
So when he asked for feedback first,you gotta figure somethings up.
Then he states "USPS boxes were used" what the hell does that have to do with anything??
3-This is the kicker-his reply to Don.
A--"Thanks, you made it very easy for me to post the feedback you richly deserve regarding your exhorbitant S&H fees"
--The jackass paid $8.00 for shipping on one kit he bought,and now he thinks $10.00 for two kits is exhorbitant???? plus Don gave him extra decals for free!
B-"Im a buyer,not a seller,not matter what your smart ass retort,HOPEFULLY ITS GOING TO
HAVE A DIRECT EFFECT ON YOUR PROSPECTIVE BIDDERS"
--By that last statement in caps its quite obvious this guys a seller,selling the same thing under another name and wants to give Don 2 negs to make him look bad.Yes I maybe paranoid,but thats the way it looks to me.
Don as far as your reply goes-too me you were too nice-this guy is a total scumbag
in my humble opinion of course!
posted on June 25, 2004 05:48:27 AM new
hi drjackk...your f/back shows you as a professional; your auctions, while long to me, are individually well-thought pieces..and you certainly dont come across as one with a villianous attitude toward any bidder...
--------------------------
..as i read the 2 auctions; there are actually 4 models to be shipped???? so, what i want to know is your secret,
-----------------------
"HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU SHIP 4 FOR $5.75?"
----------------------------------
...i presume you to be in zone 4 or 5; you shipped to indiana...i suppose if you stuffed the four into one large p/mail carton, you may have made it under 2 pounds...which is approx 5.00...if you had to "oversize" the box, then it would have easily been +2 lbs...OR AT LEAST I THINK SO.
-----------------------
myoldtoy
[ edited by myoldtoy on Jun 25, 2004 05:49 AM ]
posted on June 25, 2004 07:07:16 AM new
You need to use paypal shipping or stamps.com and check the box to not print the shipping cost on the label. This will eliminate the problem of complaints regarding overcharging for shipping - what they don't know they can't complain about.
And (as everyone else has said) never leave feedback first.
posted on June 25, 2004 10:18:56 AM new
I agree with the others here. This guy sounds like a total jackazz, and potentially a competing seller. You did this guy a favor, and look how it is repaid. Please don't get jaded though, and think everyone out there is like this. Usually, people like this have NO LIFE, and get their rocks off trying to pull one over on others. Pathetic, really. However, I also agree that your email response just supplied additional motivation for this guy.
Things to do list:
1) Leave response to feedback, in a professional, factual manner
2) Never, EVER, leave feedback first as a seller.
3) When responding to email, type out what you want to say, then save in drafts. Leave computer, come back in 30-60 minutes and reword with a clearer head.
"Who's tending the bar? Sniping works up a thirst"
posted on June 25, 2004 01:45:09 PM new
So, if you left a positive for this leopold guy, you don't have the ability to go back and make an addition later? I know you can't change the rating from a positive, but isn't it possible to add additional remarks?
posted on June 25, 2004 02:47:41 PM new
I thank you for the help. I just stood in the mirror and did repeat "I will not leave feedback first" 103 times. It will NEVER happen again!
Below is a second email I sent to him. I find it quite humorous that he has not replied to it. I decided to "Funk" with him, at least have a little fun. I am also going to write ebay and see if I can have the feedback removed. If I can prove it had nothing really to do with the deal, but a crusade on his part to punish people, they MIGHT remove it as it really had nothing to do with the deals, but with my policy in general. Here is what I wrote him.
Do you got any brains idiot? If you bought just one set of kits, my real cost "per order" shipping is going to be $5.75 each (that does not change, that is a basic USPS fee per package). with a handling charge of 3.75. for $8.00. You bought two of them together, so I dropped the handling down to $1.00 each for the second set of kits. The shipping fee is based on INDIVIDUAL SALES of auctions. Are you too stupid with math to figure that out? Of course $16 is too high a shipping and handling fee for a combined order of 4 kits, but how do I know that one person is going to buy two orders? I DON"T You only paid $2 more for shipping and handling for the second order moron! THAT is a deal I could live with when I buy.
When you bid, YOU AGREE to the costs put directly in the ad. It was clearly written.
You, my good man, are a liar and a cheat! you got what you paid for, as the deal was agreed. You admitted it in your first email to me and you paid for the agreed amount of S/H willingly!
You are the scum #*!@ that makes ebay so hard for honest dealers. I have made it a habit to never give buyers feedback first, to avoid dishonest people like you. I stopped selling for the June, July, august season, so I gave good feedback to close the books for the year on everything shipped. yeah stupid me, LIKE A FOX$$$$$$.
Now comes the good part (for me). You have given me unwarrented, and bogus bad feedback, I will SUE you. I have won a case last year for $10,000 (from bad feedback in early 2003 in a very similar case). IT IS worth my time and money to nail your candy lying, cheating ass. Do you know what SLANDER is? Liable? You have to go into court and defend your statement. Ebay is NOT kidding that you must know that you legally liable for bad feedback. In your quest to punish exhorbitant fee charges by sellers, you got the wrong person and it is easy to prove. I will buy a lot of inventory to sell to others out of YOUR money. It also cost the guy OVER $3800 in legal fees, and he has to pay my $2683 in legal fees, +$2348 in travel cost (he lived 5 states away). HE HAD TO SELL HIS KIT COLLECTION OR I WOULD HAVE ATTACHED HIS WAGES! The case even made the regional paper in the county I sued him in. And you think you are PROTECTED from slandering others on a ebay feedback in a public forum? I have your real name and address and I will follow through! It is worth the money!
I will take you into deposition (you WILL have hired an attorney by then $$$ you could have spent for shipping). At that point, your attorney will tell you "boy, did you screw up, if he takes you to court, you could lose $50,000 or more (I sued for $100,000) as you attacked in a public forum a business man's reputation in front of everyone for something YOU AGREED TO!!! ( Your words from your first email "While the items arrived in good shape and as described". Your own words will check and mate you. I suggest you call your attorney about this, he/she will confirm what I say is true!
I know, you will act like "big stuff", puffing and running your mouth, until the lawsuit begins. Then it wont be so much fun , it will cost you big $$$ AND YOU WILL LOSE! <--me. I have reason to believe you have a lot of good assets to attach. If you can afford 238 purchases on model kits, you can afford to pay both yours AND MY attorney fees, plus the judgement.
And, just like the last guy, I will give you 48 hours to start the paperwork to remove the slanderous statements. It is simple. The stated fees for S/H were clear and up front, stated in the ad. YOU chose to agree to them by bidding. YOU lied about agreeing to a deal, and now you are cheating me out of my good name. Feedback is only the FIRST step in such a process. Please note that $2.50 shipping and handling fee per kit is MUCH lower than the average, which is $6.80 per ebays own cost analysis. Where were you cheated? You were given one hell of a deal!
CALL YOUR ATTORNEY! I suggest that immediately!!!! HE/she will inform you that it is true what I say about the liable and slander. You may give him my email address and I will give him the case number and state of the other law suit I sued for and won.
There are many other things I will be doing, such as adding to my ads why I don't leave feedback as a seller first and your ebay name, your real name, your address and copy of your emails will be shown as a reason. Ebay will do nothing about it. I will also directly file a complaint with ebay (you are safe there, they keep a real hands off position), but it will lay the groundwork for the civil liable/slander suit. I will tell many many sellers about you and your dishonesty. Soon, you will begin to see yourself blocked from auctions by people you never knew. I will also watch your bidding, and write to sellers before the auction closes about your dishonesty and failure to keep an honest deal. I will send them the email exchanges. Also, it you notice, you should read the reply to your bad feedback! I have asked sellers to email me and I will show them the first three exchanges we had. Many of us kit sellers have known each other for years, and they will ban you too!
And Ebay sales is a hobby of mine, guess what my real profession is????
So you think you are a tough little guy, I WILL show you who is a tough bastard. Your feedback was unwarrented and implied dishonesty (I just read it). You got 48 hours or you ass is MINE!
Don
He has not replied yet. I have a lawyer friend in indiana, so I may contact him to write him a little letter. I have even thought about actually going through with it! I want you guys to read my ads the go in sunday nite for my new auctions. I go into why I will not longer be giving feedback first, and use his ebay name and real name as an example! I am not sure how Ebay will take it, but since I can prove it with emails, it might just fly!
all the information above is not true, I have never sued anyone, but HE does not know that! he he he.
posted on June 25, 2004 03:01:37 PM new
Since you all have been so helpfull here, and I don't have any problems anymore, here is a little hint on how I can ship 4 model kits for $5.75, and just slide under the 2 LB mark. Just for you MYOLDTOY
I take 2 of the longer (15" shirt boxes), use the USPS white fiber envelopes for each kit, pack two kits in each box, THEN USE 2" STRAPPING TAPE TO TAPE THE TWO BOXES TOGETHER! Then mail them as "one" package. That way, USPS pays for the interior packing with the white envelopes normally used for shipping themselves, tough as nails they are, light, and two shirt boxes as "one" package. Works great for multi items!
posted on June 25, 2004 05:04:29 PM new
Don...I've got a couple NPB's I'd like to email. After seeing your letter to the jerk, I was thinking you could make more composing emails to jerks for other sellers than you can make selling. Great response. Bet he has trouble sleeping tonight. And he won't be able to contact his attorney until Monday morning. I like it
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on June 25, 2004 06:09:08 PM new
There is our ole buddy,,,Square Trade.
Then there is the forbidden but used PUT THEIR PERSONAL INFORMATION RIGHT IN THE FEED BACK! (My pita,,,,bid on two,,,,,auctions)
My F/B responses to his were similar to this,
1.
Homer Simpson of sunnyvale,Cal. 93456 is not too bright. Dose not like the shipping but buys just the same?
2.
Homer(his REAL last name) 555 1212 (no area code)Does not like the shipping but purchases anyway? IDIOT!
Real name
Real number
Real city
real zip
And I really did call him an IDIOT!
Scanning his FB is I see another called him and IDIOT! ALSO.
(big red circle)FRAUD SALE ,, he yells out at the top of his lungs,,,,,
You don't like the terms, DON'T BUY!
Anyway, nothing ever came of any fb removal due to personal information in the FB.
I would imagine (he as a 40 + fb BUYER only) just got a new name an moved on.
Poor me, with my shinny new 100 feeds and two negs, right on top.! AH! not really I got another one after that,,,NEGATIVE,,,I am STILL waiting for my "item".
Of course MY return NEG states,,proffesionally and factually,,,,I am STILL WAITING FOR FULL PAYMENT! SEND THE POSTAGE Emailed twice for it!!!! return NEG, OTW......(he paid immediately) a 2 feed backer. He's gone to a new name I am sure.
drjackk,,,felt GOOD slammin' those keys, didn't it. I know, the feeling.
posted on June 25, 2004 08:22:53 PM new
Don/Dianne, you said:
"There are many other things I will be doing, such as adding to my ads why I don't leave feedback as a seller first ..."
I'm pretty sure there's some sort of rule or guidance from eBay that says that sellers should leave feedback once the payment is received. If do you otherwise, don't say that in writing - not in emails to your winning bidders, and definitely not in your ads.
"...and your ebay name, your real name, your address and copy of your emails will be shown as a reason."
Putting a past bidder's email address and real name in your ads - I'm pretty sure you'd be asking for it in terms of getting your auctions cancelled. Threatening to give out contact info to third parties - I'm pretty sure that's a suspendable offense.
"Ebay will do nothing about it."
Make a statement like that, and you're provoking eBay, if this bidder wants to send the email to eBay.
"I will also directly file a complaint with ebay (you are safe there, they keep a real hands off position),"
Ditto ... You're baiting them into being "hands on" - with you.
"... but it will lay the groundwork for the civil liable/slander suit. I will tell many many sellers about you and your dishonesty. Soon, you will begin to see yourself blocked from auctions by people you never knew. I will also watch your bidding, and write to sellers before the auction closes about your dishonesty and failure to keep an honest deal. I will send them the email exchanges."
Whoa. I think that's called "auction interference," and I'm pretty sure if you launch a campaign telling other sellers not to sell to this buyer, you'll wake up in NARU-land.
"Also, it you notice, you should read the reply to your bad feedback! I have asked sellers to email me and I will show them the first three exchanges we had. Many of us kit sellers have known each other for years, and they will ban you too!"
You're so angry you come across as having gone "postal" on this guy. If I was a kit seller and I got emails like this from you, I would either ignore them or file a complaint with eBay.
Remember, if you email another seller through the "ask seller a question" link, you're using eBay's email system, and there's a link where people can file a complaint about abuse of eBay's system.
I understand why you're so PO'd - you even gave the guy a gift.
But, for the way this is going, you're going to hurt yourself, not him.
For some people, the power trip is upsetting other people to the point where they do themselves in.
Even if you did succeed in putting this guy's name into your ads without getting shut down, all it would do is to draw attention to his 2 neg's and away from your many positives. How is that going to help you sell?
If you do get a lawyer, the first thing the lawyer is going to tell you is to knock it off - don't put anything more into writing.
If you do follow through with a lawsuit, it's the old "anything you say can and will be held against you in a court of law."
The correct response - initially - would have been that eBay allows sellers to charge a reasonable handling fee on top of the actual shipping charge. There's a section of the rules to that effect. If you can't find it in the "help" section, go to "live chat" and ask for the link. $3.25 as a handling charge for 4 kits certainly is within the range of "reasonable." You could have - and should have - responded with a cut & paste of that text. Or, my own personal fave, had a chat with a "live chat" rep, who would have affirmed that you're entitled to add on a reasonable handling charge. Those transcripts are very powerful because it's you as a specific seller discussing a specific question with an eBay person who's responding in real time. It would have been affirmation
that you were well within your rights as a seller.
But you're so very angry right now, unless you calm down, you're going to end up
doing damage - perhaps substantial damage - to yourself, while this guy just laughs at you.
If he does respond to your last email, don't respond. Let it go. You let him yank your chain big-time. Don't get sucked into any more of this.
I probably would've offered him a refund of a couple of dollars just to smooth things over (but that's just me).
Sniping works up a thirst"