posted on November 18, 2004 06:42:47 AM new
Okay... here's the deal... I sold a camera to a bidder where I checked various functions of the camera and they worked fine. I did not however run any film through the camera. I specifically mentioned this in the description and said that because of that I was selling the item "as-is".
Well... AFTER the auction closes... the bidder says... I'm sending payment... and, oh... by the way... what if the camera doesn't work? (Don't you think if this was a concern they shouldn't have bid on an AS-IS auction?!?!)
Well... I could tell from the start that this would be trouble. I just knew the guy wouldn't send payment if I didn't respond. So, I told him I'd be willing to consider a partial refund. He sent the payment and I sent the camera.
Surprise, surprise... he gets the camera and now is saying that it doesn't work. He's now demanding a FULL refund (despite my previous e-mail) and even expects me to pay s/h both ways! Anyhow... this is a draft of my response to him:
**********
I am truly sorry that the camera does not appear to be working. As stated in the description, I did try all the various functions when I tested the camera and everything was working fine. Even though this item was sold in "as-is" condition... I am willing to issue a partial refund. If you had truly been concerned about bidding on an "as-is" auction... you should have posed your question about return policies before bidding on the auction. My offer for a refund is as follows:
1) The item must first be returned to me at:
my address....
2) Once received, I can issue you a refund check in the amount of $67.49. This is your purchase price of $74.99 minus a 10 percent re-stocking fee. S/h costs are not refundable.
3) This check will be issued ONLY on the condition that no feedback be left for this transaction.
Or, you may certainly choose to keep the camera if you desire. Either choice is fine with me. Please let me know what you decide.
*********
Anyhow... what do you think of my response? Is my offer of a partial refund reasonable? Is my third term acceptable? I don't want to issue any refund amount for an as-is auction and end up with a negative feedback! I was thinking I'd put a notice on the check like "endorsing this check constitutes an agreement not to leave feedback for ebay auction #..." I've just had bad vibes about this bidder from the start. Let me know what you all think. Thanks!
[ edited by eauctionmgnt on Nov 18, 2004 06:43 AM ]
[ edited by eauctionmgnt on Nov 18, 2004 06:44 AM ]
posted on November 18, 2004 06:51:19 AM new
I think it would be difficult to enforce your endorsement stipulation. If feedback is a major concern, I would insist on a positive that stated both parties agreed to cancel the transaction or something of that nature, before issuing the partial refund.
posted on November 18, 2004 07:07:25 AM new
When your selling something in "As is" condition #1 your listing this item at a very low price, #2 if its a vintage camera then the as is condition would be fine for most buyers, but if its a new camera and this buyer wanted it to be in working condition then he should not have bid on your AS IS camera.
But the bottom line here is you should not have offered him a partical refund not knowing if this is a working camera or not.
You were offering it AS IS, now the rest was up to him to either take it or dont bid.
Your email is telling him your terms, but do you have those terms listed in your auction?
Since you did offer him a partical refund then he should realize and be told shipping is not refunded.
Another thing I found out when selling Cameras or any electronic items always have the serial number so you know they are returning the item that you sold to them, just a suggestion for the future since this happened to me when I had my shop, it made me realize that people switch there broken item for the one you just sold to them.
If you can not work out something that makes both of you happy then I would just let him keep the camera and if need be take your neg on feedback.
posted on November 18, 2004 07:16:00 AM new
I would ask what part of "as is" do you not understand. They should of asked before bidding not after the fact.
I would of made it clear to them that this was a as is sale when they asked. Better to cancel the sale if you already had a feeling that they would be a problem child.
But since you did make the offer of a partial refund stick to it now. Never fuss over feedback as it means nothing in the long run.
posted on November 18, 2004 08:42:26 AM new
would that be feedback extortion??
bidder should leave whatever feedback he feels you deserve,he may leave you a neutral .
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on November 18, 2004 08:42:40 AM new
If I were in your situation, I know my big fear would be a negative (since I have none yet). I urge you to let go of that (and I'll try, when in a similar situation!).
You sold the camera "as is." What store would do what you're offering to do here?
A suggestion: Anything sold "as is" should have those words at the very TOP of the auction, I think. The buyer probably didn't read through your description, like most buyers.
I recently sold some vintage paperbacks to a repeat customer. When he received them, he e-mailed that they weren't as nice as he'd expected and he'd like to return them for a refund. I looked at my description and realized I'd been careless about describing some imperfections, told him to return them, and I'd refund his high bid and original shipping --but I hoped he'd be kind with his feedback--something like "seller very understanding about return." He did that.
posted on November 18, 2004 09:07:58 AM new
Ebay bidders are often so anxious to get a bargain that they read what they want to read,if seller said he tested it and it seems fine and sold 'as is',they just assume it will work fine for them until they receive the item.
Lots of wishful thinking there!!
say if i am selling a car,i said i tested the car in my garage and i managed to start the car,engine sounds good,windows work,door open,lite on and off,turn signal no problem,transmission clutch works,etc etc BUT if i never take the car out on the road,there is no way to know if the car is really in running condition.
But based on my description ,bidders may draw their own conclusion the car should run.
well??
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on November 18, 2004 10:35:34 AM new
Almost any auction house that I have been in, has a sign that states "As Is Where Is" This holds true UNLESS the auctioneer states a guarantee. When selling china, I state that I guarantee my china to be as described. Have yet to have a complaint.
posted on November 18, 2004 11:42:47 AM new
Your buyer is pulling one of the oldest scams on Ebay. He had a camera of the same make and model with a broken component, probably a motor. When he received your camera, he switched components, and now wants to return it. You can bet your bottom dollar that the camera you receive back from him will be a non working camera. And he will have a perfectly working camera at his end. Track his auctions. He will probably have that camera listed on Ebay the day he receives his refund, and his descriptin will include something like "perfect working condition" (thanks to you).
A $75.00 solid state device will always blow first to protect a 25 cent fuse ~ Murphy's Law
posted on November 18, 2004 02:03:30 PM new
Thank you all for your posts. Some very useful insights.
Traderjones... I agree that it might be hard to enforce my third term... but, hey it might work... I think that if I forced him to leave feedback before issuing a refund that could be considered feedback extortion. (although it is a grey area)
Tonimar... I learned the hard way years ago about serial numbers. I always list ALL serial numbers for my camera and lens auctions directly in the auction listing. That way there's no room for confusion later on. I do not list any refund policies on my auction pages because I prefer to assess each situation on a case by case basis.
Stopwhining... from reading the feedback extortion page on ebays help section... nothing indicates that agreeing not to leave feedback would be feedback extortion. I think I'm probably alright the way I've phrased it.
Sparkz... I certainly hope that's not the case. If it is... I suppose even verifying the serial number won't help. I think I may have to give it the benefit of the doubt.
Bottom line... I agree with all your sentiments. I guess I was wrong from the start to even suggest I would consider a partial refund. However, I was worried he would juust become another NPB (and I really did think this camera would work). Still... I guess in the long run it would have been better if he hadn't sent the money (or better yet hadn't bid!). I did offer the partial refund, though, so I think I'll stick with that... but certainly not a full refund! If he decides he doesn't like my refund terms... he can leave me a negative and I'll keep his money (thank goodness he payed by Money Order!) I think I'm being quite generous considering it's an as-is auction. I don't really care that much about negative feedback. However, the only reason I'd refund ANY amount in this case would be to avoid negative feedback. Otherwise, I feel completely justified in keeping the money. He did get a low price on the camera, assumably because of the as-is notice in the description. It's always the bottom-feeders that cause the problems, isn't it? Anyhow... thanks again for your posts. I'll let you know what happens!
posted on November 18, 2004 03:12:12 PM new
I got a response from him... he didn't seem too thrilled with my answer. Here's his response:
I think based on the fact that you did not test ALL functions...that the 10% restock should be overlooked...please be more flexible for this please....you will be able to get someone else to buy this broken camaera like I did for the same money again...please allow me a full refund because I will have to pay shipping twice now for the same product....on top of your 10 percent fee. That will be $11.50 for shipping plus the 10 stock fee of $7.50 whick means I will lose $19.00 out of pocket for a broken peice of equipment you stated was working PERFECTLY....this is an unfair transaction.
My response to that was...
I specifically stated in the auction that I had not run any film through this camera. (which seems to be specifically what you're having problems with) That is why it was listed in as-is condition. I never stated it was working perfectly, just that the functions I tested seemed to be fine (which they were). I agree that it is an unfair auction. It is unfair for me to have to refund ANY amount for an item that was listed as-is. If you weren't willing to gamble that the camera MIGHT not work... you shouldn't have bid. However, I truly do not want you to get stuck at a loss any more than I want to be stuck at a loss. My offer is as fair a compromise as I can think of. Neither one of us will suffer great losses, yet neither of us will profit. You will lose a small amount of money (much less than if I stuck to my as-is terms), and I will barely break even after eBay fees and then will lose some on labor costs. Considering the circumstances, I do consider my offer to be quite flexible. You are also certainly welcome to keep the camera if you wish and, if necessary, have it repaired, or resell it on eBay. Please let me know your decision as soon as possible.
We'll wait and see what happens... I'll keep you all posted. Thanks again for your help!
posted on November 18, 2004 09:48:01 PM new
I am taking the buyers side on this one. What on earth are you doing selling untested junk? This is a prime example why ebay is getting a reputation of being too unreliable for electronics. Too many sellers selling "as is" knowing all too well that what they are selling really doesn't work in the first place and are shielding themselves with the "as is" crap.
More and more buyers are learning or will learn the hard way. When they see "as is", it really means it's junk and I still want to sell it like it still actually works.
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Alive in 2005
posted on November 19, 2004 07:13:18 AM new
what good is a camera if it only works without running film thru it??
But then Ebayer bidders would just have to wise up,i would return the camera ,eat the shipping fee and restocking fee and give the seller a neg.
I will report to ebay if seller tried to tie feedback with his return policy.
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on November 19, 2004 07:37:55 AM new
He just sent me an email stating that he will be returning the camera. I'll send him back the partial refund once I receive the camera.
Stonecold... while I can certainly understand your point of view (which is the ONLY reason I'm even offering a partial refund...) I do not sell untested junk. All of my cameras go through at least a 15-30 minute inspection period. The problem is... cameras (especially electronic ones) are extremely complex bits of equipment. It is very difficult to say with certainty that every feature is working. (and if anyone did... I don't know that I'd believe them...) For example... to guarantee a camera does not have light leaks in the film back.. you'd have to take a roll of film in various lighting conditions, get the film processed and review the results. This kind of testing would add a great deal of cost to the camera... and in most cases is simply not neccessary. The other thing with some of the early electronic cameras is they can be unreliable at best. They may work fine today... and not tomorrow. I simply don't have control over that. I sell hundreds of used camera bodies and lenses... and list the majority of them in as-is condition. Probably only about 1 out of 100 ever get reported back to me as not working... and up 'till now they've all understood that they purchased it as-is. I know that the selling price of them is lower than if I guaranteed them... but that's fine with me. My bidders are getting a deal because they're taking a chance on the item (just like I did when I purchased them for resale). It's a win-win situation... as long as you understand what as-is means.
Stopwhining.... best I know... there's nothing saying I can't make feedback part of my return policy. I'm giving him a choice. He can keep the camera (which was received exactly as described), and leave feedback. Or... I will make an exception to my as-is listing and issue a refund under the stipulation of no feedback from either parties. The choice is his... and he's chosen to return the camera. Can I enforce the feedback stipulation? I really don't know. But... it doesn't hurt to try.
posted on November 19, 2004 07:53:05 AM new
There is no way to enforce 'no feedback will be left',the only way is to ask him to leave feedback before you issue refund,which would sound like extortion to me.
I see a lot of bad pictures on ebay ,i wonder why the seller does not invest in a good camera if they want to make money on ebay??
-sig file -------Life is one big happy 'All You Can Eat' buffet .
posted on November 19, 2004 08:59:23 AM new
What's wrong with selling electronics "As Is"? I'm sure there are people out there who just want some of the parts.
Be kind. Everyone is fighting their own secret battles.
...Author Unknown
