posted on September 10, 2001 10:40:48 AM new
I have 2 male friends that are gay. We've always stayed in touch over the years since they moved to Toronto. They are both excellent interior designers and when we do talk, the bulk of the conversation is usually geared towards this topic. I have met other gay guys and they happen to be good interior designers as well.
Problem is, when I talk to my friends and mention these guys, I always gloat about what wonderful decorators they are. My girlfriend thinks I am sterotyping gays but I don't see it.
Is it wrong to say most of the gay guys I've met are good interior designers?
posted on September 10, 2001 11:15:36 AM new
Not if it's true. I'm sure if you ran in a different type of circle, the gay men you know would have different jobs.
A friend of mine is a temp in NY. Almost all the gay men she knows are temps who want to be actors. It doesn't mean she's stereotyping, her circumstance is dictating what type of people she meets.
posted on September 10, 2001 11:18:35 AM new
kraftdinner, of my acquaintances the three best designers I've known have been gay men, but I've also known many other gay men who were no better than anyone else at design. They were computer scientists, doctors, engineers, retired military personnel, bank loan officers, antique dealers, veterinarians, etc. There's a difference in saying "the best designers I know are gay" and "gay men are good designers". The former may be true of the guys you and I know. The latter may be true, but I don't know that for sure. (In Art and Design circles, there's been a lot of discrimination against women, so just because men may outnumber them in some of these professions doesn't mean they're better - just that they had a jump start and made the rules.)
posted on September 10, 2001 11:22:07 AM news it wrong to say most of the gay guys I've met are good interior designers?
Yes. Why mention they're gay at all? You can simply say you know a couple of guys who are good interior designers, and leave it at that. After all, do you believe that the reason they are good interior decorators is because they are gay? If not, their sexual orientation is rather irrelevant, wouldn't you say?
Barry [neither gay nor any good at interior decorating, just in case anybody is curious...]
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 10, 2001 11:38:51 AM newYou can simply say you know a couple of guys who are good interior designers, and leave it at that.
Doesn't matter whether she mentions they are gay or not.
You can bet your sweet bippy that those who do stereotype will assume they are.
My oldest friend was trained as a barber, but when he opened his own business in the '60s, he used the genderless "stylist" in the business name to attract women clients to his shop.
To this day, whenever I mention my best friend is a stylist, it is assumed by some that he must be gay. For some, the fact that he is a barber/stylist and his best friend is a woman, he surely must be gay. It really ticks me off.
He has been fighting that stereotype most of his adult life. Funny, when he was just a barber, no one thought he was gay.
posted on September 10, 2001 01:46:20 PM new
Godzillatemple, I guess it's because I've never met any straight guys that were good decorators. To me, I think of it as a gift they have.....same way I think that black people have fabulous voices, but I'm sure this would be called sterotyping as well.
Even with your friend Femme. If it's assumed that some gay people choose to be stylists, what's wrong with saying that? I guess what I mean, is if the statement is meant to be a compliment, what's wrong with saying it?
posted on September 10, 2001 02:09:08 PM new
Gay men seem to have a unique creativeness for some reason. When we buy storage lockers in San Francisco that have belonged to a gay guy, we have never been disappointed by the contents. They have very good expensive tastes.
Also when I worked at the Cosmetolgy School, 9 out of 10 male students were gay.
posted on September 10, 2001 02:20:09 PM new
kraft - I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that. Most of my gay friends are excellent designers, too. It tends to go along with the characteristics of gay men. Being gay does not end at one's sexuality, and it usually includes a certain pattern of behavior, preferences, and talents. Stereotypes exist for a reason, though they often become exaggerated. Of course there will always be exceptions, but I don't think we need to be so PC as to deliberately exclude information like "he's gay" when saying "he's great with decor." It's a distinguishing characteristic.
In theory I agree with Barry that the fact that they're gay doesn't need to be mentioned and should be irrelevant, but because gay people are in the minority, it's a distinguishing characteristic and it helps to describe them, just like "my Asian friends" helps to convey a more detailed description if most of one's friends are non-Asian, though the fact should, for all practical purposes, be irrelevant. I've always been bothered by the fact that men's college sports are called things like "track" and "rowing" while women's sports are usually referred to as "women's track" and "women's rowing." It's because women are a minority (or perceived minority) in sports.
I'll admit I've gotten on my husband's case for referring to some of our friends as "our gay friends," but I understand why he does it. It's descriptive.
posted on September 10, 2001 02:40:36 PM new
Sticky subject.
Seems to me that boasting about knowing a good "gay interior decorator" is on a par with saying you know a good "Jewish lawyer."
It may be difficult to recognize such statements as stereotypes because in one sense they are complimentary -- they attest to the person's skill at his/her profession. However, the stereotype occurs when the person making the statement draws a direct connection between the subject's skill and his/her sexual preference, religion, etc.
They're not negative stereotypes. But they are stereotypes nevertheless.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:00:44 PM new. Most of my gay friends are excellent designers, too. It tends to go along with the characteristics of gay men.
Ding ding ding! Stereotype!
I bet there are as many if not more gays out there who are as clueless as the rest of the population when it comes to decorating. But thanks to stereotypes, people tend not to notice that.
It takes effort and a willingness to see your way past stereotypes. I think in daily life people just don't have time or energy to do that, so they indulge stereotypes in a general way. But I hope and expect that when they encounter specific personal situations where they personally interact with an individual or members of a stereotyped group, they find the willingness and energy to see beyond the cliche.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:29:03 PM newMost of my gay friends are excellent designers, too. It tends to go along with the characteristics of gay men.
Ding ding ding! Stereotype!
Sure, but it's true. IMHO, there's nothing wrong with speaking factually about something that's regarded as a stereotype, unless that stereotype is harmful.
I probably have more experience with gay men than most people on this board, and admitting that many fit the "stereotype" (I'm getting really sick of that word) doesn't mean that I overlook their individuality. Each is as different as a snowflake, but most of them have certain characteristics in common.
And they do generally have better taste than the general male population, unless my experiences have been a total anomaly.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:39:40 PM new
My contact with gays is very limited, however, two are godsons, and one is a cousin. They dress with more style than any other people I know. And they "throw" together the most amazing ecclectic furniture, color combinations and living ideas to DIE FOR DAHLING!! I wish I had half their creative imaginations. One is an art instructor, the other is in theater and the other is a DR.and avid antique collector.
posted on September 10, 2001 03:54:16 PM new"Gay men seem to have a unique creativeness for some reason."
I think that way too chococake.
Like I would never introduce them as my "gay, decorator friends" spaz, but when gays OR decorating come up in a conversation, I always brag about their talents. When my girlfriend said I was sterotyping them, I didn't know what to say, and thought maybe being Politically Correct was becoming Over-Politically Correct. (???)
posted on September 10, 2001 04:07:01 PM new
Would you all agree that there are plenty of gay men out there who are indistinguishable from the rest of the populace? Who are not flamboyant peacocks, who do not swish and lisp, who have no interest or "flair" for decorating or hairstyling or cosmetology? Who by all appearances and behavior are as "manly" as their heterosexual counterparts?
Would you agree that there are probably a lot of gay men who keep their sex lives private, who do not advertise their nonconformity to the world via their style of dress or comportment? Would you agree that there are probably an equal number, or maybe more, who are closeted and again, as outwardly ordinary as the next guy?
Some of you are basing your opinions on the gays you know about -- the ones you've seen. Hasn't it dawned on you that the ones you are seeing are merely the most visible -- the ones who go out of their way to make you see them?
I don't understand how you can feel comfortable speaking about how "most gay men" behave or look when the sample you're drawing your conclusions from is actually just the tip of the iceberg.
This is the problem with stereotypes of any kind. There will always be individuals in the stereotyped group who do not fit the stereotype, yet must endure being characterized as such.
posted on September 10, 2001 04:42:32 PM new
I'd say that most gay men aren't flamboyant and, like straight people, they keep their sexuality private. They don't advertise their sexuality any more than straight people do. Straight women flaunt their sexuality far more than gay men, and they're rewarded for doing so.
Some gay men are closeted, but even then an experienced observer can often tell they're gay (referred to as "gaydar" ).
In high school my group of friends didn't identify themselves as gay and most of them dated girls, but they came out later on, mostly in college. Their personalities didn't change much and they're still the same people they were when they were "in the closet," with only one exception (who came out, got liposuction, and became the bitchiest queen you'd ever wish to meet).
I've met gay men who are shy, those who are outgoing, or reserved, who like art, who like Star Trek, who like opera, who like hard rock, anything and everything. Despite all the differences, though, there are common threads. I've been to gay nightclubs where I've witnessed styles of dress and comportment, and I've been able to compare it to that of men at other nightclubs -- not actively studying it, but just as something that's around and seeps into one's consciousness.
Possessing good taste does not equal being swishy or flamboyant, so I don't see what's offensive about pointing out that a larger percentage of gay men than straight men have a good sense of style. It's a compliment, and it doesn't mean that everything about a gay person can be generalized.
Men (generally) watch football with more frequency than women. Women (generally) cry more than men. Gay men (generally) decorate better than straight men. It's not a big deal, nor does it have to be labeled an evil stereotype... it's just the way things are.
I love my friends for their individuality and not because they're gay or straight, but gay men make awesome friends for reasons that wouldn't exist if they were straight.
If any of you watched the first episode of The Amazing Race on CBS, I'd bet a good hunk of money that the gay couple with the matching outfits and hats lives in a much better-decorated place than the two guys from New York. And there's nothing wrong with that.
Damn winking smileys.
[ edited by RainyBear on Sep 10, 2001 04:44 PM ]
posted on September 10, 2001 04:58:17 PM new
Christopher Lowell is awesome! I was so impressed with what he did with a California beach house the other day on TV.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:06:29 PM newNanastuff: The thread was discussing any particular affinity gays have to decorating/designing. Spaz then said Would you all agree that there are plenty of gay men out there who are indistinguishable from the rest of the populace? Who are not flamboyant peacocks, who do not swish and lisp, who have no interest or "flair" for decorating or hairstyling or cosmetology? Who by all appearances and behavior are as "manly" as their heterosexual counterparts?
posted on September 10, 2001 05:15:31 PM new
bunnicula,
I meant that sentence as a laundry list of stereotypical assumptions about gays. There wasn't an intended linkage between any one or two. I was just rattling them off. Maybe I should have used fewer commas and more question marks.
As for what Rainybear said,
Some gay men are closeted, but even then an experienced observer can often tell they're gay (referred to as "gaydar" ).
I'm done wasting my breath. I'd rather paraphrase something Strother Martin said in Cool Hand Luke: "Some people you just can't reach."
posted on September 10, 2001 05:16:03 PM new
What is obvious to some is not to others. The statements are a generalization to the "stereotyping" that goes on in any profession that is not "typically" a male profession. (designers, beauticians, male nurses, ect....there are many of them). Spaz asked some very good GENERAL OVERALL questions......nuff said from me.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:16:04 PM new"Would you all agree that there are plenty of gay men out there who are indistinguishable from the rest of the populace?"
Yes! Like Rock Hudson. He changed part of my understanding about gay men. I used to think ALL gay men were feminine. When he spoke out about being gay and having AIDS, I cried....not only for him, but because I realized how ignorant most of us were about gays, and that I was VERY ignorant myself.
I too have met and known quite a few gays...mostly guys and like RainyBear and bunni said, they have all been sensitive, honest, compassionate and good listeners, not to mention the decorating and dressing parts. As a group, I think there is a uniqueness about them, but certainly know not ALL gay men are equal.....same as any other group.
Like I said earlier, I think black people have the gift of singing and dancing...so do many other people, but they have something special. If that's wrong to say, then I gues I'm just not "there" yet (?????)
Maybe this is 'stereotyping' too, but gay men make the best, true friends IMO.
posted on September 10, 2001 05:37:16 PM new"Some people you just can't reach."
Fine, spaz, if you don't want to look at reality in the interest of trying oh-so-hard not to stereotype anyone, be my guest. But ask nearly any gay man about gaydar and he'll tell you it exists.
Are there any gay men on this board? Can somebody back me up here? Anyone with any substantial amount of involvement in the gay community? Or are you going to tell me that there is no gay community because that would be a stereotype??
It makes me feel badly, spaz, that you think I'm in the wrong for not conceding that everyone is the same straight across the board. I've been intimately acquainted with gay men and have spent years of my life living with them. I'm very fond of them and the things that make them special. Excuse me, the things that make many of them special...
posted on September 10, 2001 05:38:45 PM new
I asked a gay friend of mine who is a decorator why he thought the stereotype might exist as far as some general thinking that a male hair stylist or decorator may be gay.
He said that we all should know that every male in those professions are not gay. But the stereotype may exist because they are professions that it seems to be "acceptable" by society for the males to be gay. And that TV and movies have also played up that stereotype.
He said that maybe gay men gravitate towards professions that are "acceptable" because it makes their lives easier. It can be very difficult to be a known homosexual (especially with a same-sex partner) in other professions.
posted on September 10, 2001 06:25:44 PM new
A stereotype is a stereotype, regardless of whether the person doing the stereotyping considers it positive or negative.
There are millions of gay men in the world. You're making a judgment about ALL of them based on your personal knowledge of TWO of them. The only thing truthful you can POSSIBLY say about all gay men is that they are all, by definition, gay. I don't have a clue how many gay men are good at interior decorating, but the point is neither do you. In fact, I bet you actually "know" a lot more gay men than you realize, and I also bet that some of the men you THINK must be gay {because they match your stereotypes] aren't really gay at all. At most, all you can really say, kraftdinner, is that of the many men you have met in your life, the two who you happen to know are gay also happen to be good interior designers. But, since that statement doesn't actually MEAN anything, why bother saying it?
It's a rare occasion that I actually agree with Spaz on anything, but the sheer ignorance being shown in this thread is mind numbing.
Barry
---
The opinions expressed above are for comparison purposes only. Your mileage may vary....
posted on September 10, 2001 06:27:27 PM new
Sorry Rainybear, but I thought we were having a serious discussion about stereotypes and you responded with "gaydar." I'm familiar with the term. I know people use it in reference to this belief they have that they can "sense" who's gay and who's not.
But I also see the inherent prejudice in things like "gaydar." Not too long ago, say 60 years or so, a whole nation experienced a phenomenon that might be described as "Jewdar." They didn't call it that, of course, but folks went through their days "sensing" who was Jewish and who was not. They based their ability to spot Jews on certain telltale physical characteristics (the suspect features were spelled out in many propaganda pieces of the period)and/or behaviors (and I won't insult anyone by elaborating on them). As I'm sure you know, folks caught by "Jewdar" had a heck of a time once they were spotted.
But let's rewind even further back in history, to old Louisiana -- New Orleans of the early 19th century, to be exact. They didn't have "gaydar" or "Jewdar" but society folk did amuse themselves by conjecturing and whispering about who might be an octoroon -- that is, which of the white-looking people in town might secretly have some slave blood in their veins. Many believed they could "sense" an octoroon in their midst. The considered themselves experts at sniffing them out. Of course, once an octoroon was exposed, it led to scandal and societal disgrace for the victim.
I don't think you're a bad person, or prejudiced, Rainybear. But I do think you promote stereotypes, perhaps even unconsciously. So do your gay friends, it sounds like (in any group there are individuals who create/embrace/perpetuate the stereotype, frequently to the detriment of those trying to escape it -- gay, lesbian, Black, Hispanic, Jewish, Italian, Irish, you name it). Hell, I promote stereotypes too from time to time. I try not to, but I'm only human.
The only point I'm trying to make is that we all need to be more aware of stereotypes and how deeply ingrained they are in our society. We need to recognize how easy it is to slide back into them, whether because they suit our sense of humor, our fear, our curiosity, anger, frustration, etc. Once we can do that, maybe there's a chance that someday we'll get past them (though personally I doubt that will ever happen).
posted on September 10, 2001 07:35:28 PM new"You're making a judgment about ALL of them based on your personal knowledge of TWO of them......"
Actually, the two I mentioned are just two that have remained close friends for the past 20+ years. I have met their friends, gone to gay bars with them, went to parties with them etc. I've grown up with gay people on my street, in my school and in my family.
My intention wasn't to numb your mind with my ignorance godzilla. Sorry you percieved it that way.
